Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[Zhnigo]

Trinity - Blessing

Previously did nothing. Now, will Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Equinox - Mend

Previously did nothing. Now, Allow the Shields component to work and heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack.

Vazarin - Protective Dash

No invulnerability Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Harrow - Penance

Heals are capped up to 50 per second.

Volt - Capacitance

Capped at 250 shields, no overshields

 

What is the reasoning behind these being based on absolute numbers instead of relative % of the target's health and shields? Scaling excavators' health with difficulty felt like a step in the right direction, this feels like a step back.

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

Those numbers are SO low.

500 health? At higher levels, that's nothing. I can live with 10%, or even 5% of max health and/or shields.

The 500 health and shields might help in defence missions on EARTH NODES, but in Arbitrations, 500 would be as effective as trying to spoonfeed the cryopod string cheese.

[Totterson]

So we've had a month to hear literally anything new from DE regarding this change apart from the unwelcome implementation itself. Cool.

 

Slapping 100 health per second on everything you can think of for only 5 seconds a piece doesn't work, DE. It only really works for Wisp since she only has to cast one or two powers a single time then forget about it. A change or statement to the rest of powers on the list, Vazarin especially, would be nice. Cuz you've gone and made Wisp the new Vazarin.

 

Meanwhile I'm happy to nap through all related missions with or as a Wisp. This is fine and intended I'm sure. It's not every day that a defense target can perpetually crowd control an entire... crowd while healing over 90 hp per second. It's actually kinda amusing.

[selig_fay]

5 hours ago, Totterson said:

Meanwhile I'm happy to nap through all related missions with or as a Wisp. This is fine and intended I'm sure. It's not every day that a defense target can perpetually crowd control an entire... crowd while healing over 90 hp per second. It's actually kinda amusing.

Wisp rather works because the electric proc stun enemies. You know. Electric buff for the object, for you, for your companion, for all your allies and their companions and you can add specters here and enemies will just be automatically blocked by stugger when they just enter the zone. Most of the defense missions mobs can't even bring down the shield.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

16 hours ago, Totterson said:

So we've had a month to hear literally anything new from DE regarding this change apart from the unwelcome implementation itself. Cool.

 

Slapping 100 health per second on everything you can think of for only 5 seconds a piece doesn't work, DE. It only really works for Wisp since she only has to cast one or two powers a single time then forget about it. A change or statement to the rest of powers on the list, Vazarin especially, would be nice. Cuz you've gone and made Wisp the new Vazarin.

 

Meanwhile I'm happy to nap through all related missions with or as a Wisp. This is fine and intended I'm sure. It's not every day that a defense target can perpetually crowd control an entire... crowd while healing over 90 hp per second. It's actually kinda amusing.

Welcome to the DE feedback loop: DE announces a nerf, players express their concerns on the forums, DE announces a dev workshop featuring the nerfs again, players express their concerns on the forums again, complete radio silence from DE, rinse & repeat.

[P._I._Staker]

On 2020-05-01 at 11:59 PM, -CLM-Joker said:

 

Please do consider changing it from a flat value to a % value, perhaps decreasing as the level gets higher in order to still ramp up difficulty.

 

This. Make it percentage based.

[zhunGamer]

If they really just can't let the nerf go, I would be ok with (500 HP + 20%) over 5 seconds + 50% damage reduction during effect.

For an Excavator, that's like ~1000 HP, and actually has a chance to stay alive. Is that so bad? Am I really supposed to be low-range Limbo (or Frost) main now? Wasn't the whole point to have more viable frames for defense????

[(PSN)evilkittenofdoom]

The upcoming (to console as of this post) changes to Vazarin’s Protective Dash are problematic. They render one of the shining features of Protective Dash into utter uselessness. 

Let me start by saying that I’ve been a dedicated Vazarin player since the original prototype for Focus was released with The Second Dream (an absolutely stunning cinematic quest, by the way.) I have used this Tenno school for literally over 1200 hours between PC and Console. I have extensive practice and knowledge about just what is going on here and what will and won’t be worth my time. 

Starting with the big issue, here...

500 HP over 5 seconds at level 60 is arbitrary. 

60% over 5 seconds with invulnerability for that time? Yes, it’s utterly bonkers and definitely needs some toning down. 

So instead of nerfing it into the ground and thereby further pushing the Zenurik agenda here, how about we split the difference? 
 

I propose 25% Healing over 5 seconds, with the first two seconds being Invulnerable. The Invulnerability cannot be reapplied for 5 seconds, the heal doesn’t stack but the duration can be refreshed. (The Invulnerability having its independent cooldown shared from all Tenno so multiple people can’t keep it permanently invulnerable). 

Why do I think this is balanced? 

Protective Dash for defense objectives and the like serves primarily as an emergency tool. The short invulnerability gives that functionality still, while the slower heal and cooldown then require you to use other actions to compensate, such as the other function of Vazarin that so rarely gets used by the name of Void Aegis. 
 

Full effect as per Tenno and their Companions is ridiculous, and has been for a long while. But where it’s headed is just a bigger push towards the already overwhelmingly superior Zenurik. 

If you want more diversity in Tenno Schools, improve the others and (gasp, the heresy) nerf Zenurik just a touch. Not much. Just a tiny, tiny bit. “But only just,” as Ballas would put it. 
 

Bring them all back to a more equally attractive state. 

[(PSN)Anemosylva]

I get how ridiculous Protective Dash currently is, but this nerf certainly goes a far. Very much liking you proposed ideas. Though frankly, I'd be elated for Damage Reduction replacing the Immunity t this point. Definitely agree on the need for percent based healing all around though. The flat values that exist and that are to come are sadly  just too low to matter.

Oh... Mending Soul refresh... there's that wound opening again. Vaz's first big nerf that, perfect example of going too far with a nerf. Instead of simply capping how many you could have in stock, they limit how many you get period. Refresh on death would be wonderful...

 Before pessimism gets more of me, I'll hope something will indeed come of your posting this!

[Magus_Tahir]

16 hours ago, (PS4)evilkittenofdoom said:

 

Starting with the big issue, here...

500 HP over 5 seconds at level 60 is arbitrary. 

60% over 5 seconds with invulnerability for that time? Yes, it’s utterly bonkers and definitely needs some toning down. 

 

Just wanted to clarify that you were aware that it is only on defendable targets. It will still work as currently listed for Warframes. 

Second well thought out post I would suggest adding it to the feedback thread, there it would have a higher chance of visibility than the general forums.

Be well!

[ReshyShira]

4 hours ago, Zhuinden said:

I would be ok with (500 HP + 20%) over 5 seconds + 50% damage reduction during effect.

For an Excavator, that's like ~1000 HP, and actually has a chance to stay alive. Is that so bad? Am I really supposed to be low-range Limbo (or Frost) main now? Wasn't the whole point to have more viable defense frames????

Invulnerability I think is fine, as other warframes already can grant the objective invulnerability at least for a limited time.

[zhunGamer]

 

8 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Invulnerability I think is fine, as other warframes already can grant the objective invulnerability at least for a limited time.

Technically this is true, you already have to be there and it lasts only 5 seconds so you continuously have to be there for it to work.

I haven't had fun with the game ever since this change was made, even though technically I only used Vazarin for Excavation, high level / radiation hazard defense/mobile defense, and Fortuna bounties.

Objectively I'd be happiest if they just revert the Vazarin changes altogether. I was literally the only Vazarin player I've ever met in any games. Most people didn't even know Protective Dash existed (even after 2 years), which is probably why DE was so eager to kill it "while they still could" or something. No idea, just speculating really.

People tell me "just play Frost if it bothers you so much", the whole problem here is that I'm forced to play Frost in the first place as it is now the only true alternative to Vazarin's protection.

I also wouldn't mind if they also made Unairu useful while they're at it, it costs 177/177 to keep it max and there is no useful ability on Unairu beyond UW for eidolons, because unlike Vazarin that was just nerfed to death, Unairu just doesn't even work.

[ReshyShira]

Just now, Zhuinden said:

 

Technically this is true, you already have to be there and it lasts only 5 seconds so you continuously have to be there for it to work.

I haven't had fun with the game ever since this change was made, even though technically I only used Vazarin for Excavation, high level / radiation hazard defense/mobile defense, and Fortuna bounties.

Objectively I'd be happiest if they just revert the Vazarin changes altogether. I was literally the only Vazarin player I've ever met in any games. Most people didn't even know Protective Dash existed (even after 2 years), which is probably why DE was so eager to kill it "while they still could" or something. No idea, just speculating really.

People tell me "just play Frost if it bothers you so much", the whole problem here is that I'm forced to play Frost in the first place as it is now the only true alternative to Vazarin's protection.

I also wouldn't mind if they also made Unairu useful while they're at it, it costs 177/177 to keep it max and there is no useful ability on Unairu beyond UW for eidolons.

I mean I chose Vazarin as my first focus school, but over the years all of it's upsides have been increasingly replaced or rendered irrevelant.  Healing Warframes?  Magus Repair.  Healing the Objective?  Removed.  Protecting the Objective?  Use any defensive warframe ever, or CC.

[Magus_Tahir]

3 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

What bothers me is they nerf all trees except zenurik and naramon CONSTANTLY and wonder why people only use those..

(I'm a vazarin main, still missing the scaling quick revives)

Just out of curiosity do you stay in Vazarin for all frames or mix and match the different schools for different frames? For example for Harrow I use Vazarin since affinity range boost greatly expands his abilities for more energy hungry builds like an ESO Volt build I use with less than 100% Efficiency I stick with Zenurik and Arcane Energize or lastly my melee Saryn I use Madurai.

I see similar threads pop up quite a bit concerning the focus schools and would like to get a general sense of where different points of view are coming from.

[(PSN)evilkittenofdoom]

Thank you for your kinds words, and for pointing out that thread. The forums are not as easy for to navigate on my phone and my PC is all but dead right now. 

I am aware that these changes are only on defense targets and the like, yes.
 

It was reassuring to find that I’m not being crazy here. =P

[SneakyErvin]

The thing is the change is there since healing can now stack from several different sources. So it isnt just Vazarin anymore, everything can now heal the target. So you can Vaz and Bless with Trinity for instance etc.

So if you have a group with different heals at a time, they can now all help heal the target if needed. A percent based heal would be absurd given the ehp of defense objectives quite early on. The enemy damage would never manage to scale enough.

[vanaukas]

More than 30 pages of complainings and suggestions on 2 threads and we don't even know why we can't heal everything as advertised (or at least, like it was before). It's frustrating trying to bring feedback to someone who doesn't even explain the chanegs properly or when ( (or we?) don't know what are you aiming for. This is bad balanced, not just for the vazarin nerf, but because the abilities don't have consistency. Why putting a cap of "x per second" when you can put something literally infinite on your pod? What's the balance you are looking into? When you'll bring back the heals for "mobile" defense targets? It's a bug? It's intended? Why making a thread if you, the devs, can't respond something so simple like "we are talking internally about this" to, at least, know you are aware of the situation.

This is pretty much ghosting your own player base, wich is insane, because most of us are trying to make you understand that we value the intentions regarding balance, we like have more possibilities to heal targets, but the values don't work outside paper and statics, on real missions we cannot heal anymore (as vazarin users) defense targets on a useful way, we can't go as any frame we want and enjoy trying weird builds. We are doing this on the most politely way we could find to this infuriating situation and you, after all this years, choose to be silent? 

Right now, I can understand why people reacts so badly to your behavior as devs outside the memes, why a portion of the player base (and users of this forums) are so cynical regarding your changes. And don't start with the "but you haven't tried!" search my profile and my statics, I mostly play vazarin and I've tried to heal almost everything I could to see if it was wrong with my asumptions and I was right. Everyone who is telling you "we need more heal and dr" is right, vazarin don't work as you guys think. At least tell us if you are going to change those values, because, right now, healing defense targets doesn't bring any versatility over "bubble frames" wich are way more better than maxing everything on your operator so you can actively fight and heal at the same time to be useful for your teammates (or if you wanted to go on solo).

At this point, I don't even knwo why I care about this, I'll just have to finish (again) my old frost prime and try to live with this. I won't stop playing as a vazarin healer, I will find a way to play as operator and control everything to make the mission fast and safe.

[0_The_F00l]

Nezha Warding halo (with safeguard of course) does not work as advertised.

But there is now 100% DR and is now a knockoff Iron skin.

[ReshyShira]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The thing is the change is there since healing can now stack from several different sources. So it isnt just Vazarin anymore, everything can now heal the target. So you can Vaz and Bless with Trinity for instance etc.

So if you have a group with different heals at a time, they can now all help heal the target if needed. A percent based heal would be absurd given the ehp of defense objectives quite early on. The enemy damage would never manage to scale enough.

No, the healing doesn't stack, and the damage reduction is capped at 50%, in a game where most sources of DR are 90% or 95%.

[SneakyErvin]

22 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

No, the healing doesn't stack, and the damage reduction is capped at 50%, in a game where most sources of DR are 90% or 95%.

Healing from different sources stack, so you can effectively have khora, oberon, harrow, wisp and trinity plus vaz. The only thing that may interfear there and not stack would be that possibly bless and vaz counts as the same source since they are both reworked into the same mechanic from a percentage based heal. Everything else stacks, and iirc, since the patch Oberon now also applies his armor buff to the defense target.

They cant overbuff one mechanic when it is supposed to be one of many that are balanced in comparison to eachother. 100/sec without any mod investment is one hell of a free heal when you consider that support frames modded for strength barely reaches that point of heal/sec.

 

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

They cant overbuff one mechanic when it is supposed to be one of many that are balanced in comparison to eachother. They cant overbuff one mechanic when it is supposed to be one of many that are balanced in comparison to eachother. 100/sec without any mod investment is one hell of a free heal when you consider that support frames modded for strength barely reaches that point of heal/sec.

I made 97hps for Oberon at maximum energy efficiency. My Wisp in the build for the maximum buff makes 119hps and this is not the limit. I just put the maximum power for interest on Khora and got 174. And I really don't understand what balance we are talking about.

[ReshyShira]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Healing from different sources stack, so you can effectively have khora, oberon, harrow, wisp and trinity plus vaz. The only thing that may interfear there and not stack would be that possibly bless and vaz counts as the same source since they are both reworked into the same mechanic from a percentage based heal. Everything else stacks, and iirc, since the patch Oberon now also applies his armor buff to the defense target.

They cant overbuff one mechanic when it is supposed to be one of many that are balanced in comparison to eachother. 100/sec without any mod investment is one hell of a free heal when you consider that support frames modded for strength barely reaches that point of heal/sec.

 

It's nothing when it takes up all of your time to maintain it, versus it working passively ala Oberon/Khora.  It also isn't enough of an amount to matter at mid to high level due to how HP scaling works.

[(PSN)evilkittenofdoom]

The real question here is simple : why heal the objective or defend it with these highly lacking means, when you can just default to Limbo or Frost, who make the tasks almost arbitrary to begin with? 
 

Which then begs the question, why even did any of this occur in the first place when neither of them are seeing any adjustments of their own? 
 

The whole change overall isn’t even going to make much difference except by further pushing people into domains they’re already forced into. 
 

That’s why my concern was regarding Vazarin as a whole and not solely this change. The change is just what sparked me to speak in the first place. I moved the parts unrelated to these changes into a proper thread, as I realize they don’t belong here. 

[(PSN)DidelphisV]

Everyone’s saying that this healing isn’t enough for things like Arbitrations but like.....isn’t that the point? It’s supposed to be hard endgame content, the whole community complained about everything being too easy but y’all still wanna trivialise the actual hard content 

[(PSN)evilkittenofdoom]

If that’s the case, then nerf Frost and Limbo along with it.