Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[FerdinantFreez]

Here are some very simple steps to avoid further community backlash in regards to Protective dash changes:

                 1.Give back the invulnerability phase.

                 2.Make the healing a percentage instead of a flat value.

Tweak the values if you must, however ignoring the feedback for the second time without even giving any reason for the change will result in a lot of criticism. 

Thank you in advance. 

[Leuca]

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

Spoiler

 

Fact 1: this came to the attention of the developers because Khora could heal Oplinks. Vazarin was not able to do this.

Fact 2: Vazarin in its original form could not heal objects. This ability came to us recently.

Fact 3: players didn't abuse oplinks healing on this event, because at high levels, oplinks were oneshoted for mobs. Now check what the players really abused.

Fact 4: limbo expected a nerf where he could only apply 50% DR to objects when an opponent fires outside of the rift, but this didn't happen. Although Limbo, this is exactly what the players were abusing when I didn't see any Khoras in my mission.

Fact 5: vazarin couldn't heal an object when it took damage. Yes, invulnerability made it possible to heal him, because he didn't actually take damage during invulnerability, but you had to do it 2 to 3 times to completely heal him. That is, vazarin could only heal an object during the object's natural regeneration. So, the usual removal of invulnerability and adding this effect to all strong healing abilities could solve this problem?

I don't think it was a problem before this event. And personally, like many players, I don't understand why healing has become a problem. Before vazarin, there was always an easier way to protect an object. Just look at this:

And now vazarin, trinity, garuda have become a problem? Why? 

 

 

I don't remember saying other things weren't being abused. Limbo has been a fundamentally broken frame for years; his "rework" didn't change that at all. I also wasn't talking about the recent event.

And I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of vazarin gaining its healing component recently. That has been around for quite a while. It allowed you to effectively reset an objective's health in between rounds, beyond just granting invulnerability during said rounds.

[selig_fay]

3 minutes ago, Leuca said:

And I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of vazarin gaining its healing component recently. That has been around for quite a while. It allowed you to effectively reset an objective's health in between rounds, beyond just granting invulnerability during said rounds.

I checked my edit on the wiki regarding this (not English, don't worry). Yes, it was February 19, 2018. How quickly time flies. You're right, it's been in the game for a long time.

[ShirakawaNaoya]

19 hours ago, xHeretic said:

This is a bug or is intended? Vazarin can't heal defense objectives on Fortuna.

<Snipped Video to save space>

I hope it's bugged and not a "new mechanic".

Yup. as of 27.4.0 seems like Vazarin does not work in Fortuna defense objective like the Floating thingy, Coildrive, etc. Failed a bounty or two if i remember correctly. This is going to be another issue where I may have to go only Frost/Limbo when I go to Fortuna everytime in solo. Ridiculous.

[selig_fay]

11 minutes ago, ShirakawaNaoya said:

Yup. as of 27.4.0 seems like Vazarin does not work in Fortuna defense objective like the Floating thingy, Coildrive, etc. Failed a bounty or two if i remember correctly. This is going to be another issue where I may have to go only Frost/Limbo when I go to Fortuna everytime in solo. Ridiculous.

Amesha can still protect mobile objects well. Although, stationary, too.

Although modular archwing scare me.

[vanaukas]

16 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

Probably because Fortuna's defense target is considered a mobile defense target and the update added healing to static defense targets. 

That's exactly what I mean with "new mechanic" I'm afraid of those distinctions, also the operatives from defense missions are the same as always with vazarin (invulnerability and 60% heal), I think they may have 3 groups: Static, mobile and "living thing", where static and mobile was changed and (by a miracle) "living thing" remains the same. If they destroy the remaining power of vazarin, it will be the end of that school for good.

[TheArcSet]

Well said.

[Flying_Scorpion]

8 hours ago, Leuca said:

"niche/underappreciated role" was being used as a crutch to invalidate scaling content, often enough to actually get the attention of the developers, which goes to show how it wasn't really niche at all, or else there wouldn't be such a collective pushback against these changes. Players have gotten accustomed to the game playing itself for them, and the old vazarin was a clear example of this.

YES YES GOOD GRIEF! The voice of reason! We need more people saying things like this or else the game will just continue down a path of blatant powercreep and mind-numbing boredom. 

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

24 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

YES YES GOOD GRIEF! The voice of reason! We need more people saying things like this or else the game will just continue down a path of blatant powercreep and mind-numbing boredom. 

Well then, I'd suggest that we nerf every defense & damage-oriented Warframe to balance out the complete butchery of healing Warframes. Good luck trying to run ESO when Saryn can't body dozens of faceless goons. Good luck trying to run defense missions with Frost or Nova when their abilities drastically lose effectiveness & the target you're defending becomes Swiss cheese. I don't see you all up in arms about Zenurik, the only other focus that won't lose relevance unless a nerf like this were to happen. You want balance? You want difficulty? You address EVERYTHING, not just one thing that bothers you. You look at all the focus schools, you look at every Warframe, you look at every weapon & their umpteenth variant. I don't agree with the "power fantasy" argument everyone uses to justify how easy the game is, but I also can't stand how apologetically poor the AI is in this game. By destroying healers, you essentially prop up the other metas on a pedestal even more so than before. That's a problem that you're ignoring, if almost blatantly because you aren't being transparent enough about what you consider power-creep.

[Flying_Scorpion]

I agree with you on addressing everything, but this is the problem: the moment DE starts nerfing things, people get all up in arms. But if they add something overpowered or buff something, people praise them. So it's a constant feedback loop to just continue pushing the powercreep higher and higher, and we wind up with a stale late game, and enemy levels getting higher and higher because why? Because people like seeing big numbers. It gets to the point where you can just roll your face across the keyboard and win. How is that not boring? It is boring. So when they begin nerfing things, even though a large portion of players get all up in arms about it, we need at least a few voice to stand up to the rabble and give some credence and positive reinforcement where it's due. To DE for using some restraint, for moving the needle BACK into a direction where we are being challenged. Instead of caving in to every whine or complaint when they nerf things. While this may not be the perfect balance yet, saying that Vazarin is utter crap or is destroyed or RIP is just taking it too far. It does its job, it heals the target. It's still incredibly OP when it comes to healing warframes or living targets like sortie defense operatives. Give them a little room to tune things down so that we are being challenged again.

[selig_fay]

21 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

I agree with you on addressing everything, but this is the problem: the moment DE starts nerfing things, people get all up in arms. But if they add something overpowered or buff something, people praise them. So it's a constant feedback loop to just continue pushing the powercreep higher and higher, and we wind up with a stale late game, and enemy levels getting higher and higher because why? Because people like seeing big numbers. It gets to the point where you can just roll your face across the keyboard and win. How is that not boring? It is boring. So when they begin nerfing things, even though a large portion of players get all up in arms about it, we need at least a few voice to stand up to the rabble and give some credence and positive reinforcement where it's due. To DE for using some restraint, for moving the needle BACK into a direction where we are being challenged. Instead of caving in to every whine or complaint when they nerf things. While this may not be the perfect balance yet, saying that Vazarin is utter crap or is destroyed or RIP is just taking it too far. It does its job, it heals the target. It's still incredibly OP when it comes to healing warframes or living targets like sortie defense operatives. Give them a little room to tune things down a bit. If we want challenging and engaging endgame content, we're going to go through some *shrinking* pains with regards to some of our most overpowered tools being taken away.

Be careful when you talk about balance. You fall into a hole with it. At the moment, the healer's nerf is a useless thing for balance in the actual game, because healers have long been unnecessary in the actual game. How often did you think "Oh my God, the target of the defense is going to be killed, we need to do something"? On the other hand, if DE want nerf things, let them do it all at once, so that you can see point of it all. At the moment, I don't see the point of all this. More precisely, from what I can see, they decided to nerf all healers against objects because Khora had a bug with oplinks. This is literally the only official reason.

Another point is, why can't they just nerf all the energy stuff including energy pizza? This is something that will definitely make the game more difficult and kill a couple of dozen frames at a time.

[(PSN)DidelphisV]

Hey I noticed that the Combat Discipline aura mod isn’t mentioned in this list? Is that intentional? Because it’s a very low heal, I don’t think it would break the game to allow it to affect Defense objectives (and might make it a bit more popular amongst the majority of the playerbase who don’t look twice at it)

[SyBuhr]

20 hours ago, Leuca said:

[Snip]

I don't disagree that with significant changes to focus trees should come the ability to respec your points, neither do I think that these changes should not be subject to further review and balancing as necessary, but going off the rail to claim that DE as a whole doesn't value their playerbase for anything other than capital is demonstrably false, or else the entire rest of the patch notes list wouldn't have even existed. That is a reaction out of anger, not out of critical thinking and play testing. They aren't perfect as a team, but they're better at communicating than many developers, and personally I'm getting tired of being able to have a fool-proof "oh s**t" button for every situation.

Hm. Ok.

Well, I was interested in pretty much everything else, but now I am curious. Citation on that bold part? Because, I think the majority (including partners) have mentioned Digital Extremes' absolute lack of consideration when receiving feedback, and which feedback is a priority.

Personally, I think I am done, I wasn't invested a whole lot in the first place with healers, it doesn't impact _me_. So who cares, right, if the house is on fire? It's the old saying, they didn't come for me, so I didn't speak up.

Look, if you hate "Win-Buttons" don't play any frame with invincibility, recovery, or CC options. Of course, you'd be limited to like... Mag I guess? Alternatively wait until DE makes up their mind on what game they want to make: Power-Fantasy or Space-Ninjas.

Spoiler

Sibear, Hema BTW. 🙂

Definitely time well spent.

If you think Digital Extremes values you for anything other than your wallet, you are naive and simply being nice for the sake of being so. Alternatively, you have stockholme syndrome. Whichever floats your boat.

[T-Shark69]

 

22 hours ago, Leuca said:

" was being used as a crutch to invalidate scaling content, often enough to actually get the attention of the developers

They didn't have to make it completely useless tho. I'm not saying bring back invul and 60% heal, but the current 100/s is taking things too far. Smth akin to Obero's smite which has a flat value + and additional scaling % based value would be better. While fully healing the target every wave removes challenge, spaming abilities on it every few seconds will lead to burn out real quick.

[ShirakawaNaoya]

16 hours ago, zhellon said:

Amesha can still protect mobile objects well. Although, stationary, too.

Although modular archwing scare me.

Now that you mentioned it, I haven't test it yet with Amesha thank you for bringing that up. Speaking of Amesha, see this is what i was shaking my head of. Fortuna is the most best example If we want to further expand to have multiple objective type in one mission/session across all possible future content. I want diversity and make use of all the stuff in loadout. At the moment i miss doing all the clutch save among allies and objective. It is one of the fun engagement for me at least.

Oh yea even after the healing balance pass went live, it is still inconsistent. Eido lure invul/heal still works like normal. I wonder if it gets hit later (which i hope not), how will the lone wolf protect the lure in between those chaotic mess of series of attacks from Eido/Grineer/Vom/Ghoul/Kavat lol. Speaking from non-minmax pov.

[Leuca]

10 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

Hm. Ok.

Well, I was interested in pretty much everything else, but now I am curious. Citation on that bold part? Because, I think the majority (including partners) have mentioned Digital Extremes' absolute lack of consideration when receiving feedback, and which feedback is a priority.

Personally, I think I am done, I wasn't invested a whole lot in the first place with healers, it doesn't impact _me_. So who cares, right, if the house is on fire? It's the old saying, they didn't come for me, so I didn't speak up.

Look, if you hate "Win-Buttons" don't play any frame with invincibility, recovery, or CC options. Of course, you'd be limited to like... Mag I guess? Alternatively wait until DE makes up their mind on what game they want to make: Power-Fantasy or Space-Ninjas.

  Hide contents

Sibear, Hema BTW. 🙂

Definitely time well spent.

If you think Digital Extremes values you for anything other than your wallet, you are naive and simply being nice for the sake of being so. Alternatively, you have stockholme syndrome. Whichever floats your boat.

I don't need a citation. Most of the recent railjack changes were made solely to the benefit of the playerbase. Come off it; it's a tired narrative and contributes nothing to the conversation, besides being a complete distraction tactic from the topic at hand.

[Leuca]

On 2020-05-04 at 12:49 PM, zhellon said:

I checked my edit on the wiki regarding this (not English, don't worry). Yes, it was February 19, 2018. How quickly time flies. You're right, it's been in the game for a long time.

Look, I'm really not on some bandwagon to make healing and damage mitigation useless. In all honesty I think the healing could use a slight buff to its ability to stack and how it interacts with things like power strength, but vazarin was in a spot where it was either useless or completely broken, depending solely on what content you were doing, among plenty of other things that still need to be addressed in this game. I'm sure my being a proponent of these changes makes me look like a huge fun-killer, but I'm of the mindset that this game has been killing fun on its own by making itself essentially non-interactive beyond content that's so absurdly scaled that it one shots most of the casual playerbase.

[selig_fay]

3 minutes ago, Leuca said:

Look, I'm really not on some bandwagon to make healing and damage mitigation useless. In all honesty I think the healing could use a slight buff to its ability to stack and how it interacts with things like power strength, but vazarin was in a spot where it was either useless or completely broken, depending solely on what content you were doing, among plenty of other things that still need to be addressed in this game. I'm sure my being a proponent of these changes makes me look like a huge fun-killer, but I'm of the mindset that this game has been killing fun on its own by making itself essentially non-interactive beyond content that's so absurdly scaled that it one shots most of the casual playerbase.

I can tell you a terrible truth, but the whole game is completely broken, meaningless, and just abusing the player's desire to own a particular thing. I have already said my point, as long as the nerf is not justified, it is bad. This nerf is not justified. It won't actually change anything in the game, other than making some people sad. 

 

[Flying_Scorpion]

17 minutes ago, zhellon said:

other than making some people sad. 

Then why am I not sad? I have over 2K hours in the game and I'm still playing it regularly. I like the changes because I think the game has gotten far too easy lately. You don't speak for everyone.

[selig_fay]

5 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Then why am I not sad? I have over 2K hours in the game and I'm still playing it regularly. I like the changes because I think the game has gotten far too easy lately. You don't speak for everyone.

some != all xD

In any case, this game is still easy. And the first thing to be done is nerf zenuric, arcane energyze again, equilibrium and rage. You know, less spam abilities, more opportunities for mobs. Hate me. But I'm completely right about that.

[Flying_Scorpion]

31 minutes ago, zhellon said:

some != all xD

Alright that's fair 🙂 I'd have to say I am open to the idea that maybe they nerfed it a little too hard. Someone mentioned earlier that the numbers they picked (50hp/s or 100hp/s) seem like a shot in the dark, and I agree. They probably just picked those numbers because they're round and they look nice. But do they translate well into regular gameplay? Well..that's a very difficult question to answer because how do you quantify things like fun, challenge, power level, etc? It's hard to quantify that stuff. We just sort of go by *feel* for a lot of this stuff. But for me, I have said it before, and I'll say it again, and again, and AGAIN. The game is TOO EASY. It's way harder for a new player starting out on the star chart, and the game sort of retains a certain degree of difficulty as you progress through the star chart because enemies get higher in level, you slowly rank up your mods, warframe, and the challenge matches your power level. But deep into the end game, you're godlike and there's very little around to challenge you. Imagine being an all-star basketball player and destroying your competition again, and again, and again...wouldn't you feel bored? Like c'mon, that has got to feel stale after awhile. Yes the sensation of being rewarded god-like powers feels good for awhile, and yes it feels good to flex on hordes of enemies or whatever, but after awhile it just gets stale. I don't think adding bigger numbers on enemies is the best solution, because it leads to this spiral of powercreep, where they buff the difficulty, and then they buff the player power, then they buff the difficulty, then back and forth and you wind up with broken systems that require a massive rework like the armor scaling system, or a reworked Warframe like Vauban and Nyx, etc. Anyway, I could go on and on about this subject, but for me, I think it's important to give DE some pat on the back when they do something that might seem unpopular, but is good for the overall health of the game ... (personal opinion alert!) nerfing things. And yeah, I know that makes my opinion extremely unpopular, but I gotta say, DE Scott has a tough job. He has to take away things that are broken op, and people dump all over on him for it like he's a war criminal. 

 

Edit: Just saw your edit

  

31 minutes ago, zhellon said:

In any case, this game is still easy. And the first thing to be done is nerf zenuric, arcane energyze again, equilibrium and rage. You know, less spam abilities, more opportunities for mobs. Hate me. But I'm completely right about that.

You're right. And yes that is an unpopular opinion because it infringes upon the metric of....fun factor. The old design in warframe was that you couldn't spam your abilities, and you couldn't heal easily. Health orbs and energy orbs were a rare resources. You had to conserve your energy and health, hide behind cover to protect your health while your shield regenerated, and made sure that you didn't waste your energy. This made Warframes like Trinity actually valuable, because they regenerated these valuable resources and significantly increased the power level of their team mates. But now? Who the heck needs Trinity or Harrow, or Oberon, or ...whoever, when you can just run arcane energize, zenurik, energy generator, magus repair, vazarin, etc etc. Yes. You're right. I agree with you on this.

Warframe was a slower paced game back then. I don't mind a slower paced game. I've noticed this trend in the gaming industry in general where developers just speed their games up over time in order to cater to a bigger audience. Path of Exile is way faster now than it used to be. Star Conflict boosted the speed of their ships. Evolve was highly criticized for it's slower paced game and Turtle-Rock studios caved in and turned their hunting simulator into a fast-paced battle-dome arcade game. And Warframe has followed suit by increasing the speed of gameplay to the point where it feels more like a racing game than a 3rd person shooter.

[selig_fay]

32 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Alright that's fair

🙂 I'd have to say I am open to the idea that maybe they nerfed it a little too hard. Someone mentioned earlier that the numbers they picked (50hp/s or 100hp/s) seem like a shot in the dark, and I agree. They probably just picked those numbers because they're round and they look nice. But do they translate well into regular gameplay? Well..that's a very difficult question to answer because how do you quantify things like fun, challenge, power level, etc? It's hard to quantify that stuff. We just sort of go by *feel* for a lot of this stuff. But for me, I have said it before, and I'll say it again, and again, and AGAIN. The game is TOO EASY. It's way harder for a new player starting out on the star chart, and the game sort of retains a certain degree of difficulty as you progress through the star chart because enemies get higher in level, you slowly rank up your mods, warframe, etc. But at a certain point in the end game, you're godlike and there's very little around to challenge you. Imagine being an all-star basketball player and destroying your competition again, and again, and again...wouldn't you feel bored? Like c'mon, that has got to feel stale after awhile. Yes the sensation of being rewarded god-like powers feels good for awhile, and yes it feels good to flex on hordes of enemies or whatever, but after awhile it just gets stale. I don't think adding bigger numbers on enemies is the best solution, because it leads to this spiral of powercreep, where they buff the difficulty, and then they buff the player power, then they buff the difficulty, then back and forth and you wind up with broken systems that require a massive rework like the armor scaling system, or a reworked Warframe like Vauban and Nyx, etc. Anyway, I could go on and on about this subject, but for me, I think it's important to give DE some pat on the back when they do something that might seem unpopular, but is good for the overall health of the game ... (personal opinion alert!) nerfing things. And yeah, I know that makes my opinion extremely unpopular, but I gotta say, DE Scott has a tough job. He has to take away things that are broken op, and people dump all over on him for it like he's a war criminal.

You know. I just recently went to Tera for keks. Just went into one of the low-level dungeons as a healer-summoner. Easy role right? But for the first two minutes, I kept asking the same questions: "how did I die?" Just the boss has a mechanic in the red pizza zone, where one part of the pizza where I need to stand to be save is highlighted blue for one second and then turns red again.  There are no clues about this and if my friend didn't say it, I just wouldn't know. OK, if I knew, I have responsibilities that I have to constantly keep combo buffs, heal my allies (because there is a permanent DoT), generate something similar to energy and health orbs so that allies can use this and take down debuffs, because debuffs are a very strong loss of dps for dps heroes and protection for the tank. I mean, I can't be relaxed here while one nuckDPS clears everything around me. I do things all the time. And with all this, there is also a mechanic that can instantly kill me and that needs to be monitored not only by me, but by the entire group. 

In order for the warframe to become more complex, you need to start from scratch and redesign the entire system. The nerf of one thing that has almost no effect on anything will not make something difficult. In most cases, you will not even notice the difference, while in others there is always a broken frame that can make everything easier. On the other hand, you can take the mk1-Paris to play without abilities without mods and feel all the complexity. I'm sure you won't think that it is difficult, you are more likely to think that it's stupid when you kill one enemy for a couple of hours. It all depends on what you define as a challenge.

[Jakizu]

I am extremely unhappy with this. I am all about letting it be a team effort in keeping a defended target alive but i am sick and tired of vazarin being the chamber pot. 

After changing how health scales woth these target you gave us vazarin a new reason to feel up to par with the other focus school despite the revive situation that is still ignored [fine,whatever] but we gave up that fight. But now the literal masters of healing are on the same playing field with basic support warframes. I dont agree at all especially when no other focus school is changed and nerfed as much as Vazarin. I feel it  give the same healing effect just with no invulnerability. At that point we can still be the masters of mending damage while having a set back that actually does balance out. 

If anyone recalls as Vazarin we literally just got the ability to heal ourselves and gain the invulnerability that we so generously hand out. Meaning for before very recent, when we dashed ourwarframes we could get the 60% filling our health while still taking all incoming damage. At the end of that dash in most cases leaves you with barely anything and acted more like a buffer than a "healing effect". I dont see where thats not fair, for all that i feel this means i should prepare for you to now just nerf our dash and the vazarin all together. 

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

Any frame with an ability heal themselves and others (without an augment) should be able to heal objectives by a SMALL percentage.

I don't want to increase the amount of Blessing Build Trinities in defence missions, but I think that any healers should be able to perform in that role.

[zhunGamer]

7 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Then why am I not sad? I have over 2K hours in the game and I'm still playing it regularly. I like the changes because I think the game has gotten far too easy lately. You don't speak for everyone.

Neither do you.

When was the last time you saw a Vazarin person join your public game, and actively ruined your sense of enjoyment just by being there?

Even when I ran Vazarin, which is kinda pointless now, no one ever told me "wow, how dare you prevent this Excavator from dying? I wanted to lose the rewards!"