The Jackal 2.0 a great start for the next generation

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

looks lame. Just added a few cutscenes.

[Felsagger]

That streamer should play Sonic the Hedgehog. This game is not for him. 

 

DE designed that boss for starters not veterans with a Tenno and full developed frames. Besides DE is not the best developer for boss fight designs. DE has a lot of interior designers but few are game developers in their crew. 

The A.I. in this game is simply ABSENT. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Felsagger

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2020-06-10 at 6:28 PM, Urlan said:

I don't understand, why would changing up the boss be a blip for anyone without it having new offerings? If it doesn't add to game play or progression what is the point of congratulation outside of seeing that new players that have experienced both, but not got their complete Rhino prefer the new versus the old?

You ever went to a museum, Tenno? Or a road trip, or a trip to the beach? The value is what you got to do and see.

New experiences for you, confer an intrinsic value. If you spend your whole life chasing what you consider to be material rewards, you will find them very poor keepsakes at the end of your journeys. 

Your, "I'm only in it for the rewards" stance, is what's wrong with a large chunk of the community. It's why so many people fail or refuse to recognize the work done when we get improvements to the game. But that's a flaw in you as players, not the new gameplay. 

I hope you can grasp what I mean, but either way I wish you well, Tenno. 

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

looks lame. Just added a few cutscenes.

It is pretty lame. It is a boss that does very little himself now with an AoE during his invulnerability phase and some elextric hazzards in "phase" 2.

Personally I wish they had never implemented the Parazon since it seems like they try to implement it everywhere now instead of making enganging fights. Jackal is nothing but an interactive cutscene currently. A boss that used to feel like an actual boss fight when you first faced him is just a laser show now where the boss itself is just scenery more or less.

Old Jackal + the new mechanics would have been the best, but the laser show shouldnt have been during an invulnerability phase, it should have been a constant mechanic that would inspire us to move and play a bit more tactically. Right now it is about shooting the leg then running in a circle, shank him and repeat.

When I heard he was reworked I imagined something more interesting, like Kela, Tyl or regular Sallad, 3 of the best boss fights in the game since playing well means higher efficiency and clear speed while playing bad can make the fights frustrating, like it should be. Jackal is only about damage, nothing else.

[Teridax68]

Agreed with the OP. This is how one successfully designs a boss in Warframe: the fight is suitably intense, and the gameplay is adapted to our movement and combat. The Jackal doesn't go down instantly, but doesn't feel like a bullet sponge or a bunch of forced invincibility phases either (even though it does have invincibility phases), because during those phases we're still engaging in active play. I would be happy to see every other boss in the game reworked to that standard.

[spirit_of_76]

On 2020-06-10 at 4:54 PM, DrivaMain said:

Would you rather have meta free Exploiter or a strict Meta like the Eidolons?

honestly profit taker is worse than Eidolans the only difference is they don't need kiddo of support frames

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Agreed with the OP. This is how one successfully designs a boss in Warframe: the fight is suitably intense, and the gameplay is adapted to our movement and combat. The Jackal doesn't go down instantly, but doesn't feel like a bullet sponge or a bunch of forced invincibility phases either (even though it does have invincibility phases), because during those phases we're still engaging in active play. I would be happy to see every other boss in the game reworked to that standard.

How, when and where does he not go down instantly? The whole encounter is like a swedish midsummer celebration and jackal is the midsummer pole. Atleast when it is midsummer I get booze which makes running around an object in a circle seem much more fun (quantity of booze needed to achiev that may vary).

Bosses in the game need to be made like Tyl, Kela, Raptors and Alad V, fights where our gameplay can actually impact the fight instead of it being a loooong invulnerability time gate with very little combat action involved.

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

How, when and where does he not go down instantly? The whole encounter is like a swedish midsummer celebration and jackal is the midsummer pole. Atleast when it is midsummer I get booze which makes running around an object in a circle seem much more fun (quantity of booze needed to achiev that may vary).

Bosses in the game need to be made like Tyl, Kela, Raptors and Alad V, fights where our gameplay can actually impact the fight instead of it being a loooong invulnerability time gate with very little combat action involved.

I suggest you read what I posted again, as it seems to answer your own post despite preceding it. Also worth mentioning that Tyl Regor and Kela de Thaym also have invulnerability phases, with Kela even having a dodge minigame during that period.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

I suggest you read what I posted again, as it seems to answer your own post despite preceding it. Also worth mentioning that Tyl Regor and Kela de Thaym also have invulnerability phases, with Kela even having a dodge minigame during that period.

I dont find an answer to that in your post, hence why I asked. You also missed my point where I said in the other fights our gameplay can impact the fight. Play good when facing Kela or Tyl and you'll get through the invulnerability phases faster. With jackal you shoot a leg and then run around for X amounts of seconds, or just stand still depending on the frame used.

It seems like DE is too into the whole "cut scene" boss fights lately with Exploiter, Ropey and now Jack. All of them are utterly boring and have very little actual action gameplay to them. It is kinda sad when they deliver Jackal as the "updated" boss and then the Protea encounter in the same patch. Protea was far better designed as a boss than the new Jackal is, which is worse than the old by a longshot.

 

[Teridax68]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont find an answer to that in your post, hence why I asked. You also missed my point where I said in the other fights our gameplay can impact the fight. Play good when facing Kela or Tyl and you'll get through the invulnerability phases faster. With jackal you shoot a leg and then run around for X amounts of seconds, or just stand still depending on the frame used.

Except if you play against the Jackal properly, you'll also die less if you don't let yourself get caught in the laser walls. This is on par with Kela's dodge game. If you don't approach the Jackal in time for the Mercy, it will also launch into its UFO phase again, so there is no arbitrary distinction to be drawn here. Again, the talk about active play is something pointed out in my original post, so you could've saved yourself the effort had you bothered to read a mere three lines of text.

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It seems like DE is too into the whole "cut scene" boss fights lately with Exploiter, Ropey and now Jack. All of them are utterly boring and have very little actual action gameplay to them. It is kinda sad when they deliver Jackal as the "updated" boss and then the Protea encounter in the same patch. Protea was far better designed as a boss than the new Jackal is, which is worse than the old by a longshot.

That's nice, but clearly a lot of people disagree with you, my dude. I guess you're just gonna have to live with that.

[Draconicdisciple]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont find an answer to that in your post, hence why I asked. You also missed my point where I said in the other fights our gameplay can impact the fight. Play good when facing Kela or Tyl and you'll get through the invulnerability phases faster. With jackal you shoot a leg and then run around for X amounts of seconds, or just stand still depending on the frame used.

It seems like DE is too into the whole "cut scene" boss fights lately with Exploiter, Ropey and now Jack. All of them are utterly boring and have very little actual action gameplay to them. It is kinda sad when they deliver Jackal as the "updated" boss and then the Protea encounter in the same patch. Protea was far better designed as a boss than the new Jackal is, which is worse than the old by a longshot.

 

Boring is pretty subjective here, I enjoy getting to watch my character jump up on Exploiter and rip a whole eye or other part out. The Ropey one takes a little learning too but is still pretty interesting imo, once I learn it I enjoy the creativity. 

[akrid45]

40 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

How, when and where does he not go down instantly? The whole encounter is like a swedish midsummer celebration and jackal is the midsummer pole. Atleast when it is midsummer I get booze which makes running around an object in a circle seem much more fun (quantity of booze needed to achiev that may vary).

Bosses in the game need to be made like Tyl, Kela, Raptors and Alad V, fights where our gameplay can actually impact the fight instead of it being a loooong invulnerability time gate with very little combat action involved.

Sure because killing those Bosses in 2-5 seconds is soo much more engaging 

This boss is a lot better than those 

Also kela is literally shoot for 2 seconds then playing a minigame 

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is pretty lame. It is a boss that does very little himself now with an AoE during his invulnerability phase and some elextric hazzards in "phase" 2.

Personally I wish they had never implemented the Parazon since it seems like they try to implement it everywhere now instead of making enganging fights. Jackal is nothing but an interactive cutscene currently. A boss that used to feel like an actual boss fight when you first faced him is just a laser show now where the boss itself is just scenery more or less.

Old Jackal + the new mechanics would have been the best, but the laser show shouldnt have been during an invulnerability phase, it should have been a constant mechanic that would inspire us to move and play a bit more tactically. Right now it is about shooting the leg then running in a circle, shank him and repeat.

When I heard he was reworked I imagined something more interesting, like Kela, Tyl or regular Sallad, 3 of the best boss fights in the game since playing well means higher efficiency and clear speed while playing bad can make the fights frustrating, like it should be. Jackal is only about damage, nothing else.

I'd probably arrange it somewhat more like this.

Four 'sections' to the health bar as now, to represent four phases.

Each phase consists of you first destroying a leg, then damaging the torso, and once you get through it, you do the parazon to finalise it, like Liches. If he does the spinning, it's either a between-phases transition, or what it does during the torso DPS phase. Each leg getting destroyed, so you have to target different ones between phases stays.

I'd also randomise the order of the four animations, just to help keep things fresh.

 

Not my favourite setup personally, but it feels like the best combination of added cinematic flair and keeping a decent amount of player interaction.

[SneakyErvin]

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Except if you play against the Jackal properly, you'll also die less if you don't let yourself get caught in the laser walls. This is on par with Kela's dodge game. If you don't approach the Jackal in time for the Mercy, it will also launch into its UFO phase again, so there is no arbitrary distinction to be drawn here. Again, the talk about active play is something pointed out in my original post, so you could've saved yourself the effort had you bothered to read a mere three lines of text.

That's nice, but clearly a lot of people disagree with you, my dude. I guess you're just gonna have to live with that.

There is a difference in hitting a single button or having to actually play the puzzle presented to you. You can shave off alot of time versus Kela by being efficient in the puzzle phase, versus Jackal you barely need to be awake. I just dont see the "active" play in the jackal "fight".

22 minutes ago, Draconicdisciple said:

Boring is pretty subjective here, I enjoy getting to watch my character jump up on Exploiter and rip a whole eye or other part out. The Ropey one takes a little learning too but is still pretty interesting imo, once I learn it I enjoy the creativity. 

The animations are cool and all, but the fight is just extremely boring and lackluster. There is no real fighting going on with exploiter, it is more or less one very long invulnerability phase with weakspot targeting added ontop of it. It ends up somewhere at the bottom of the list along with Sargas and Krill probably. Higher on the list than those two given the neat animations, but that is about it. Ropey is a bit better since it has actual distinct phases that also changes the size of the areana you fight it.

26 minutes ago, akrid45 said:

Sure because killing those Bosses in 2-5 seconds is soo much more engaging 

This boss is a lot better than those 

Also kela is literally shoot for 2 seconds then playing a minigame 

Nope, but if they actually lasted a bit like they did early on in the game, the fights and their mechanics are pretty well designed. They could easily fit into an MMO. And what differentiates their design from jackals is that the player can improve themselves in the fight. Jackal is always with a set time where damage on your weapon is the only thing that changes anything. And the difference between a bad and a good weapons only results in a difference of a few seconds in the end.

28 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I'd probably arrange it somewhat more like this.

Four 'sections' to the health bar as now, to represent four phases.

Each phase consists of you first destroying a leg, then damaging the torso, and once you get through it, you do the parazon to finalise it, like Liches. If he does the spinning, it's either a between-phases transition, or what it does during the torso DPS phase. Each leg getting destroyed, so you have to target different ones between phases stays.

I'd also randomise the order of the four animations, just to help keep things fresh.

 

Not my favourite setup personally, but it feels like the best combination of added cinematic flair and keeping a decent amount of player interaction.

I'd like if he was able to defend himself at all times aswell as calling in either the electric fields or the laser during specific times. As you say, it would be a good option as we damage his torso. I'd also like his cluster rocket to make a return in one of the later phases. Currently it just feels like you fight the room more than the actual jackal.

[Radagosh]

i sure love using my overformad gear on beginner level bosses to experience invulnerability phases that just bypass my progression. Nothing like seeing those unskippable cutscenes as well, love experiencing them over and over and over.

God i miss old jackal.

[Loza03]

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd like if he was able to defend himself at all times aswell as calling in either the electric fields or the laser during specific times. As you say, it would be a good option as we damage his torso. I'd also like his cluster rocket to make a return in one of the later phases. Currently it just feels like you fight the room more than the actual jackal.

Honestly, a 'fighting the environment' boss fight, done intentionally would probably work pretty well for Warframe. Sentient, Corpus, Infested, all of those could get such a thing.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

It's neat. But i find the fight to be chaotic and confusing. Only beat it because 1 random actually knew the parazon stabbing mechanics.

I couldn't get the stabbing mechanic to work much less get anywhere near it with all the chaos happening.

When bosses have special mechanics they need a explaination and lots of visible ques.

[zuraja]

4 hours ago, akrid45 said:

Also kela is literally shoot for 2 seconds then playing a minigame 

And this isn't?  My experience with this fight has basically been run up to him do one melee attack to break his legs, run in a circle or just lol operator and then hit X.

[Urlan]

12 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You ever went to a museum, Tenno? Or a road trip, or a trip to the beach? The value is what you got to do and see.

New experiences for you, confer an intrinsic value. If you spend your whole life chasing what you consider to be material rewards, you will find them very poor keepsakes at the end of your journeys. 

Your, "I'm only in it for the rewards" stance, is what's wrong with a large chunk of the community. It's why so many people fail or refuse to recognize the work done when we get improvements to the game. But that's a flaw in you as players, not the new gameplay. 

I hope you can grasp what I mean, but either way I wish you well, Tenno. 

I have, this wouldn't be the same situation or scenario at all to me, rather would be akin to having the museum burned down to put a coin-up that you use to watch a cinematic interpretation of what used to be in the location. The desire for a rewards is begotten from what one would say is a mixture of standard living nature; you expend energy to either continue expending energy more effectively, living; or you waste it and thus die unfulfilled without a positive mark on history and society; which might be represented by those Museums you mentioned. The value is gaining something from the visit, not the journey to it, not the visit itself; but what you gain. This is not one of those situations, and gives nothing adds nothing to the player - the Tenno if you would prefer; and instead just represents that previous fight as a more visually evocative but even less interactive fight. What is the new player learning? What is the old player?

I can't interpret what you think I have grasped or lost from what you mean since you are not connecting a like to a like; but I hope that whatever our disagreements in this; that you and ours can still enjoy it.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, Urlan said:

I have, this wouldn't be the same situation or scenario at all to me, rather would be akin to having the museum burned down to put a coin-up that you use to watch a cinematic interpretation of what used to be in the location. The desire for a rewards is begotten from what one would say is a mixture of standard living nature; you expend energy to either continue expending energy more effectively, living; or you waste it and thus die unfulfilled without a positive mark on history and society; which might be represented by those Museums you mentioned. The value is gaining something from the visit, not the journey to it, not the visit itself; but what you gain. This is not one of those situations, and gives nothing adds nothing to the player - the Tenno if you would prefer; and instead just represents that previous fight as a more visually evocative but even less interactive fight. What is the new player learning? What is the old player?

I can't interpret what you think I have grasped or lost from what you mean since you are not connecting a like to a like; but I hope that whatever our disagreements in this; that you and ours can still enjoy it.

I'm honestly saddened by your inability to grasp what I said, or see how they are similar. 

I hope that one day you will see that a journey can be its own reward Tenno, as cliche as that may sound. 

[akrid45]

9 hours ago, zuraja said:

And this isn't?  My experience with this fight has basically been run up to him do one melee attack to break his legs, run in a circle or just lol operator and then hit X.

I'm sorry please quote the part where i said that jackal wasn't that

 

[Felsagger]

10 hours ago, zuraja said:

And this isn't?  My experience with this fight has basically been run up to him do one melee attack to break his legs, run in a circle or just lol operator and then hit X.

Better than before. 

 

The match took just few seconds because someone one shot him. After that we had the annoying time gates of invulnerability. Right now the boss is way better than the previous versions. 

[Loza03]

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'm honestly saddened by your inability to grasp what I said, or see how they are similar. 

I hope that one day you will see that a journey can be its own reward Tenno, as cliche as that may sound. 

Consider: there are things that the devs can do to make it more likely that people will consider the experience its own reward.

For example, if Undertale didn't have those little details where examination text changes based on who's in the room, or calling Papyrus, or Judgement dialogue changing depending on your level, or the 90-odd Neutral endings.

Likewise, in action games, the journey itself can be made more meaningful if the player chooses their own path, their own playstyle. Warframe has a pretty substantial problem with that.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Honestly, a 'fighting the environment' boss fight, done intentionally would probably work pretty well for Warframe. Sentient, Corpus, Infested, all of those could get such a thing.

Well there would be options. Sentients or corpus could easily have something similar to the Red Queen of the Resident Evil movies, with lasers, massive amounts of adds and a core we need to blow up, or something similar to when you "free" Handsome Jack's daughter in BL2. Infested could have an area that is alive, something similar to the plant guy in the Lilith DLC from BL2, the dude that thinks you've mined the idiot shaft dry.

Those two BL2 fight still feel like boss encounters even though they are mostly fights versus the environment instead of the actual boss. They are also intense and action packed.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Better than before. 

 

The match took just few seconds because someone one shot him. After that we had the annoying time gates of invulnerability. Right now the boss is way better than the previous versions. 

What time gates did old Jackal have?

Shoot leg, shoot head, wait a second, repeat. The current Jackal have actual time gates that are very long.

I'm starting to doubt you even play WF since you've now claimed both old Jackal and Alad V had/have time gates.