Discussion and Feedback on the Helminth Chrysalis - The most shocking feature ever revealed?

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)lumen2ne1 said:

On one hand I'm curious to see how it all plays out, but on the other hand I'm almost convinced that it won't turn out good and they should back out on this, even though they hyped it too much with TennoCon and probably will be harder to take it back.

This. Some frames will lose their identity. "Why play x frame if I can just transfer the useful ability to Y frame who is more useful in general".  I wish they really backed out on this but it's all ready so...we will have to see.

[Gashabae]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

This. Some frames will lose their identity. "Why play x frame if I can just transfer the useful ability to Y frame who is more useful in general".  I wish they really backed out on this but it's all ready so...we will have to see.

There are a ton of other issues that could result from this but it seems like the poster is prioritizing what would be cool over what would be practical / healthy for the game.

[Blexander]

35 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

I don't understand why you think this will stop reworks. Maybe it will make it a little slower, but I don't think it will stop. On the other hand, I want to get a different ability now than waiting another 3-5 years for the rework to happen.

1. You don't know how persistent DE is when they don't want to do something, which in this case is reworking frames. How long did it take for us the get the Hydroid Prime trailer? How many of us are still waiting for a Nyx/Inaros/Zephyr rework?
2. You, and others, wanting new abilities now as opposed to later/never doesn't change the fact that the abilities you'll get are from other frames, which inherently ruins the frames' uniqueness and enforces homogeneity. Think about it, what do you think would happen if Vex Armor, or Iron Skin, or anything else that's considered great/borderline OP was available for infusion?

Point number 2 is the cause for concern. Before everybody got the info that no "signature" abilities (which is a shallow way of describing them, considering all abilities are signature to the original frame, especially Grendel, who's entire kit can't be used without Devour, which is his "SIGNATURE" ability, and there are no 2 abilities that are identical or "generic") or 4th abilities would be allowed, they were going on about "Oooo, Vex Armor on Mesa" and the like. I've seen barely 5 people talk about the issues regarding balance, the future of reworks, or the actual necessity of the update.

All they want is fun, and to break the game, then they're going to moan and whine when nerfs or ability changes occur. Nearly nobody wants to future-proof this update, especially not DE themselves.

At the end of the day, the system will be either lackluster (as most new things in the game have been) or annoyingly meta-enforcing based around what abilities we get, and in both those cases, why bother shipping the system?

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

3 minutes ago, Gashabae said:

There are a ton of other issues that could result from this but it seems like the poster is prioritizing what would be cool over what would be practical / healthy for the game.

Agreed. Chrysalis isn't needed, the frames are fine the way they are with their abilities. Of course with some exceptions.

[Gashabae]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)lumen2ne1 said:

This. And I personally think the same about Khora or Protea. Many warframes revolve around a couple of strong abilities and mediocre ones but there are some that have fully useful kits, and whichever ability we can get from them will be extremely good on another frame with already 2 or 3 good abilities. Take Wisp for example because I use her a lot. She's already a good support frame, but I don't really like nor use her 3rd ability (her 2 not so much either), and any skill from Khora, Protea or Mirage will be too good on her, being a support and having even more strong support abilities or better CC and more damage.

I only see a couple of possible outcomes out of this balance hell system. They either decide to not implement it at all or nerf abilities that have numbers and percentages with a cap. If they nerf abilities, then the system is pointless because you're going to replace an already mediocre ability with one you won't potentially use anymore so you end up with the same. If they only give the relatively worst abilities of each frame up for transfer, warframes with already bad kits will not benefit from this, or everyone will transfer the same good and strong abilities available, creating a meta.

The way I see this system is it shouldn't be implemented at all, as curious I am, but it's for the best. This is rivens 2.0, balance nightmare that acts as a band-aid for warframes with mediocre abilities that need reworks and gets abused on strong warframes instead. People will invest on the strong combinations and will eventually get nerfed or adjusted like dispositions and people will complain for wasting their effort. On one hand I'm curious to see how it all plays out, but on the other hand I'm almost convinced that it won't turn out good and they should back out on this, even though they hyped it too much with TennoCon and probably will be harder to take it back.

I'm in complete agreement with you. This entire system seems like it's doomed for disaster and tbh I thought that the second I saw it. That may be the old player mentality of, "a frame has to have these 4 special abilities and a theme to be a frame". Something that is seemingly absent in the mind of a new player without a connection to the concept trying to attain the coolest combination with no consideration to what could happen as a consequence.

That said, I definitely want it to succeed which is why the choice to leave out signature abilities is something I can agree with.

[TastyTaro]

let me get this straight, you made a topic about the facts that has been mentioned by DE during the stream, and every sane human being capable of comprehension already aware of things you just wrote.

you named this topic "the heminth chrysalis problem". could you please describe this problem with chrysalis? i don't get it.

[FueledByPotatoes]

1 minute ago, Kel_Silonius said:

let me get this straight, you made a topic about the facts that has been mentioned by DE during the stream, and every sane human being capable of comprehension already aware of things you just wrote.

you named this topic "the heminth chrysalis problem". could you please describe this problem with chrysalis? i don't get it.

"The only problem I have with this update, is the feedback from the community, because I already see people say on chat "I hope I can fuse Desecrate on Hydroid and then farm solo" or "I wish we will be able to fuse Mesa's Peacemakers" or some stupid overpowered stuff."

 

Also, the fact that people will be disappointed and S#&$ on DE once this update arrives

[wargthewarg]

2 hours ago, chaotea said:

My only concern is that the abilities we can get will be the ones we would have otherwise swapped out.

That is true but some of the weak abilities given out are far better than others. And may work a lot better with a different kit.

On Shy's stream yesterday Rebecca mentioned that some of the worse abilities would see some changes when this goes live. She mentioned Zephyr's 2 as an example. So that will also be interesting to see some of the terrible abilities getting a facelift. I still don't think I want to keep Zephyr's 2 when almost anything on offer should be better.

[selig_fay]

37 minutes ago, Blexander said:

You, and others, wanting new abilities now as opposed to later/never doesn't change the fact that the abilities you'll get are from other frames, which inherently ruins the frames' uniqueness and enforces homogeneity. Think about it, what do you think would happen if Vex Armor, or Iron Skin, or anything else that's considered great/borderline OP was available for infusion?

I think I want to destroy the uniqueness of the frame to create a unique build. I don't need uniqueness that doesn't work.

37 minutes ago, Blexander said:

All they want is fun, and to break the game, then they're going to moan and whine when nerfs or ability changes occur. Nearly nobody wants to future-proof this update, especially not DE themselves.

I think you'll be one of them when someone comes to take your fun away, because it breaks the game.

38 minutes ago, Blexander said:

At the end of the day, the system will be either lackluster (as most new things in the game have been) or annoyingly meta-enforcing based around what abilities we get, and in both those cases, why bother shipping the system?

I will get whatever I want from this system anyway. It doesn't matter what state it's in.

[TastyTaro]

18 минут назад, -Potato-13 сказал:

Also, the fact that people will be disappointed

still fail to see a connection with the chrysalis. you describe the problem that may arise because community can't read or listen or both. so i ask again, what is the problem with the chrysalis? i fail to see any as it now, because you know, i have to wait until august 25th in order to find out if this feature has problems or not.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, -Potato-13 said:

player will hate on DE for this update because they can't make any frame use spores or peacemakers.

The negative feedback I've seen isn't because you can't use signature abilities. I think everyone understands the obvious reasons for that.

A lot of the negative feedback is because the abilities that are left to donate are ones that aren't even good on the original frame in many cases without the augment, and even with the augment in some cases.

[Blexander]

5 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

I think I want to destroy the uniqueness of the frame to create a unique build. I don't need uniqueness that doesn't work.

Amazing. I did not expect this bad of a take.

6 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

I think you'll be one of them when someone comes to take your fun away, because it breaks the game.

Remember, assuming makes an ass out of you and and me.

7 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

I will get whatever I want from this system anyway. It doesn't matter what state it's in.

I literally didn't ask.

[FueledByPotatoes]

Just now, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

The negative feedback I've seen isn't because you can't use signature abilities. I think everyone understands the obvious reasons for that.

A lot of the negative feedback is because the abilities that are left to donate are ones that aren't even good on the original frame in many cases without the augment, and even with the augment in some cases.

I understand what you're saying, but there are some useful abilities, for example shock can be replaced with boring abilities on other frames, and buff damage, fire walker is fun, molt with it's augment is a good heal, I know I gave examples with augments but I just think that it's fine because it can make other frames used more, I want to swap Zephyr's Airburst ability, Gara's Spectrorage ability, and well of life ability to my eidolon trinity, but fitting an augment isn't a problem.

I know that not many good abilities can be donated but I guess we'll have to wait to what DE says can be donated, for example, any ability Mirage can give can be useful.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

4 minutes ago, -Potato-13 said:

I understand what you're saying, but there are some useful abilities, for example shock can be replaced with boring abilities on other frames, and buff damage, fire walker is fun, molt with it's augment is a good heal, I know I gave examples with augments but I just think that it's fine because it can make other frames used more, I want to swap Zephyr's Airburst ability, Gara's Spectrorage ability, and well of life ability to my eidolon trinity, but fitting an augment isn't a problem.

I know that not many good abilities can be donated but I guess we'll have to wait to what DE says can be donated, for example, any ability Mirage can give can be useful.

I agree with that, and it was one of the issues I brought up. The versatility of this system is mostly artificial since there will only be a small handful of abilities that players will be using on most of their frames whereas the rest are generally unused. Not shockingly, the same applies to warframe usage in general, where there is a huge leap between most frames and the few most useful ones. In the end both of these come down to the same issues; How do their abilities stack up against other frames'?

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, Blexander said:

Amazing. I did not expect this bad of a take.

Let's put it another way. Each frame is unique, but I can really love part of the frame's uniqueness and hate the rest. So, it makes sense to inherit the unique ability of another frame to replace what I hate, instead of waiting for rework or a new frame that may never appear. So I'll just create a new uniqueness that I like better. 

And there is nothing wrong with this. Crossout quite lives with modular technologies as a pvp game.

 

[SneakyErvin]

Well we will get singature abilities no matter what, since it isnt like whatever skill we get wont directly be noticed to come from X frame. I think what DE ment is simply that "signature" skills are those that are part of the root of a frame. For Khora that is obviously Venari, while possibly Whipclaw also is part of that due to flavor, which leave entangle that is more a generic ability fluffwise.

Then we have Wukong where they seem to have picked the clone as the skill he'll give us. One could see it as the signature and find it an odd choice, but we have to remember it hasnt been part of his OG kit while both cloud walker and defy has, while defy also incorporates his iron staff.

[TastyTaro]

11 минут назад, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- сказал:

huge leap between most frames and the few most useful ones

myes, so as i see it, DE simply gave up on making certain frames... more usable than the others.

[selig_fay]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I agree with that, and it was one of the issues I brought up. The versatility of this system is mostly artificial since there will only be a small handful of abilities that players will be using on most of their frames whereas the rest are generally unused. Not shockingly, the same applies to warframe usage in general, where there is a huge leap between most frames and the few most useful ones. In the end both of these come down to the same issues; How do their abilities stack up against other frames'?

As I have already written, this problem is easy to solve. Just create a block list for abilities on certain frames and the problem is solved. Similar augments can also be blocked as the elemental damage boosts. 

On the other hand, Chroma with a lot of damage? I think a lot of players will prefer CC because that's what Chroma really needs. I personally don't care what happens to the new Eidolon hunt meta. This is not a big part of the game.

[Sebastianx]

On 2020-08-02 at 5:25 PM, (PS4)SummoningRaziel said:

Spores on a Slowva sound fun. 

Pocket sand Ash is going to be amazing. 

Might mess with a Vex Armor Inaros. 

Mesa's shatter shield would be helpful on many squishy frames. 

Might replace Embers 1 with Energy Vampire. 

Frost will really benefit from getting is 1 and 2 replaced. Maybe a wisp ability?

Mesmer Skin OP. 

 

Yeah you won't get any of those.

You'll get Saryn's molt

You'll get Chroma's fire breath

You'll get Mesa's 1 (forgot name)

You'll get Trinity's Well of Life (which is gonna be interesting on tank frames)

You'll get Wisp's clone/teleport

Revenant's fog wall.

They already said no signature/ultimate abilities, so yeah, most useful abilities will come from Octavia/Protea/Hildryn/Garuda/Trinity and maybe Khora/Limbo/Wukong/Harrow/Grendel so I suggest farming for those if you want useful abilities to be ready when the update comes

[Blexander]

2 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Let's put it another way. Each frame is unique, but I can really love part of the frame's uniqueness and hate the rest. So, it makes sense to inherit the unique ability of another frame to replace what I hate, instead of waiting for rework or a new frame that may never appear. So I'll just create a new uniqueness that I like better. 

No, that's not making a new uniqueness, that's called streamlining. Every frame has a flaw, it'd be stupid if they didn't. If every frame could have their holes plugged, then you'd see a massive surge in "H [X mission] LF [Y frame] with [Z ability]". Let's do a thought experiment:

Let's say the helminth chrysalis system isn't a massive failure, and it ushers in an age of less frequent reworks, without strictly stopping them from happening. In the meantime, a frame desperate for a rework gets it kit supplemented with another frames ability. This goes on until the frame gets a rework. Now, let's say the ability supplemented is no longer necessary. So you remove it, as DE said we could. Now let's say that a different ability gets swapped to strengthen the role the frame plays. Let's say it become stupid broken, and a nerf is issued. And now let's say the cycle repeats until there are no frames that you'd need to swap abilities on, and that the granted abilities are nerfed to the point of irrelevance. The system is obsolete.

 

Helminth chrysalis is poorly thought through. It's a balancing nightmare. Letting the system only grant helmith abilities lessens that nightmare and it allows for more a creative approach to temporarily solving the "every frame has at least 1 useless ability" "problem". Nothing's stopping DE from constantly adding new ones anyway, but you really have to think about WHY they came up with it in the 1st place. Not thinking critically about this leaves room for error. Think about and discuss the flaws, whether they're the ones pre-launch, on-launch, or in the future in order to prevent worse ones. It's a domino effect.

20 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

And there is nothing wrong with this. Crossout quite lives with modular technologies as a pvp game.

Crossout and Warframe are 2 entirely different games with 2 entirely different types on customization. Modular frames break lore and make prime version of said frames impossible.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

7 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

this problem is easy to solve

DE's easy solution has always been to pretend the problem doesn't exist, which is what they're likely doing. The correct answer is to actually fix abilities to begin with so they don't become obsolete.

For example, if an ability only does damage (Shuriken) then it won't be used when you have access to far more damage (Blade Storm) more effectively. In this example, adding something like a disarm effect gives Shuriken a purpose that scales better.

Almost all abilities on newer and reworked abilities do several things, where older frames are still stuck with their traditional one-trick-ponies in most cases so they don't see much use and there isn't a lot they can contribute to newer and more advanced kits through Helminth that would be better than what those newer frames already have inherently.

[NoLazyShadow]

Maybe you should rename the topic into 'people's reactions and delutical expectation from Heminth Chrysalis system'. So far I see no real problem with the system.

 

Только что, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- сказал:

Almost all abilities on newer and reworked abilities do several things, where older frames are still stuck with their traditional one-trick-ponies in most cases so they don't see much use and there isn't a lot they can contribute to newer and more advanced kits through Helminth that would be better than what those newer frames already have inherently.

Thats the problem with reworks - old frames like Valkyr spend years wating for changes, yet they aren't coming because people still use her and DE has other things to do.

[Marvelous_A]

You are probably worrying too much. Helminth might provides few useful abilities and the rest will be useless. DE update just works that way.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

3 minutes ago, NoLazyShadow said:

Maybe you should rename the topic into 'people's reactions and delutical expectation from Heminth Chrysalis system'. So far I see no real problem with the system.

 

Thats the problem with reworks - old frames like Valkyr spend years wating for changes, yet they aren't coming because people still use her and DE has other things to do.

Yep, they only seem to rework things that are overly effective these days (Blade Storm, World on Fire, Simulor, and Pablo said he be will looking at Spores again) but ignore the bottom tier stuff. Atlas Prime access came and went without so much as a glance. My fingers are still crossed for Hydroid getting a rework with his Deluxe but not holding my breath.

[Marvelous_A]

His 3rd is the most generic ability out of 4 but it's powerful so they choose 1st instead.