The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Slayer-.]

Lowering the MR from 15 to 8 you should have left it at MR 10 at least, not MR 8, players rank up so fast.

You only need MR 13 to be able to use any weapon in the game.

I have every Warframe built ready to go to just to stuff them all in at once and get a burp out of Helminth, though I'll be sitting back to see what happens with the system and what it really needs to work, looks interesting.

[(PSN)Brenden751]

Okay I love Warframe but I'm not gonna sugar coat this... these nerfs are actually completely pointless and are killing the hype of what could've been a fantastic & exciting update and was even bringing back old players! It is outright stated the nerfs are not because they are overpowered, it's because they will be popular. This is not a solution to get people to use more variety when choosing their helminth abilities, the popular abilities are popular for a reason. The reason those abilities are so popular is because they are good majority of the time and 95-100% of the time every other ability is trash and will remain trash without a decent buff/rework. The abilities are getting nerfed for no reason and killing the hype before the update even arrives all because of the ideology DE uses where being a popular frame/weapon/ability is bad just because other options are not good to begin with. In majority of situations the nerfed abilities just compliment or synergize with a Warframe better than another ability you may never touch unless it gets a necessary rework, this is NOT a bad thing. If DE wants to make other warframes/weapons/ability/content/etc more popular, and thus get people to want to experience more of the game, the proper way to do this is to go back and rework the unpopular content not nerf something for being good.

   Additionally they outright said they had no intention of making this content available to new players and here we are with a change to MR8, players who have not/barely completed the star chat and only have a handful of frames to begin with. Fun fact auto-installing Ayatan stars into sculptures requires MR10, this is pointless to even lock players out of, yet the content meant for experience players is now an MR8 requirement. If DE was gonna lower the requirement it shouldn't have been something like MR12 seeing as how majority of experienced players are actually MR10+ to begin with since they see little reason to go any further, you don't even need more than MR16 for every frame/weapon/riven/etc. MR15 wasn't even a bad place to put the Helminth system and some content needs to be spaced out with some requirements to begin with for instance PoE is accessible almost immediately and yet a new player can't do much against the base lv10-30 enemies yet, Fortuna has the same issue as PoE where you can reach this in like an hour and still not be ready for the quest to even gain access to the open world, you only need MR5 to join a Railjack mission which should've been locked later and had a higher starting level for all enemies than lv15-20 for players with a bit more experience and better load-outs. Not only would proper MR locks keep them out of content they aren't ready for it would also give them another goal to work towards and bring a sense of satisfaction when you finally reach it. I get that DE wants their new players to experience everything but spacing out content, especially when you already overwhelm new players with too much information and scare them off, is NOT a bad thing it should be part of a progression system and just when they start to run out of things to do a new piece of content gets thrown at them and re-ignites their interests and motivates them to continue playing.

Morale of the story is content being popular is not a bad thing worthy of a nerf, unpopular content can be reworked/buffed into more popular content, and DE doesn't need to cater so hard to new players while ignoring their experienced/veteran players.

   DE if you actually care about your new Helminth system un-nerf the abilities and just fix/change the worthless ones. As a good example Brozime actually has a publicly accessible chart rating every helminth ability based on how they fit into an average build for EVERY Waframe and keep in mind just because it's rated A or S tier doesn't mean it's overpowered it means it synergizes, fits well into, or outright improves their kit and therefore it doesn't need a nerf but the vast majority is D tier and would need to be buffed/reworked/replaced to be worth wasting the time to put it on a Warframe and even then we would still have D tiers for some frame & ability combinations because not everything will fit in with every single Warframe's kit no matter how you rework it or some abilities will always remain superior choices for a Warframe's kit.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, RivaAurelius said:

And the fact that nerfs are sometimes necessary for balance is not something I am upset about? What I do take greivance with is the idea that the ONLY way to balance stuff is to nerf it. DE wants to give us a system that offers many compelling options, but they poorly think through selecting which options, give us maybe 10 comeplling options, 33 poor ones, and nerf the top six. Does this sound like a good way to give players an exciting new mechanic to play around with? Some half baked, nerfed abilities? No. Buff the lackluster abilities, nerfs are not necessary here. Like I already pointed out, I am not against nerfs on the principle that they are nerfs. I was fully on board with the zenurik and naramon nerfs because that S#&$ was OP as #*!%, they needed to be nerfed because they completely trivialised gameplay. This system hasn't even been released yet and already DE is taking it to the butchers. They promised us buffs, not nerfs. 

Saying 33 abilities are poor shows your bias, and why these nerfs happened. 

You and many others are incapable of thinking about anything except damage. Your vague descriptions of "wanting fun" are just more damage (oh, and needing a wide range pull to do more damage easier).

Many of you have even stated you would choose a 5% Roar over anything else. 

What a rational person would say is that you don't even need the damage, because the damage comes from actually not being lazy and putting more than 2 forma in something, switching your damage based on the faction you're fighting (which again people say they wont do) and acquiring different mods (once again, people say they wont bother with expensive, capacity draining mods because it's too much work or too expensive).

Mods and forma are one of the meat and potatoes of building a strong weapon, yet many people think they only have to put a couple forma in their badly modded weapons and they're good to go for all content. 

You can't put half-hearted effort into your weapons and frames then cover it up with buffs. An unnerfed roar will still cause your damage to fall off, because damage is about mods, forma, faction damage, stripping armor and using abilities to further these things just mentioned. People call Nyx and Banshee trash, yet Nyx strips armor in 1 button and Banshee technically has the capability of highest damage in the game. But these things require actually being decent at the game and doing some research and using more than 2 forma.

Yea, DE "lied" to you and broke your heart. Welcome to online games. They stepped too far out and told you something they may have realized wasn't possible and adjusted accordingly. You guys are gonna have to get over it. That seems to be a running theme with angry forumites: DE didn't do what they said or what the majority wants, let's threaten to kill their game by not playing and not spending money.

You're gonna be upset about many other things in the future. More stuff will get nerfed, especially after Helminth drops. You're gonna have to get used to it. If the game makes you so angry and lied to, you need to either take a break, find some peace about it, or leave, or maybe read a wiki for once. 

[Adversary]

So... you're saying we cannot express our disagreement with their actions because...?

This is the community of a game and it's obvious that the community can talk about the game and express feelings about the S#&$ the game developers are doing or not.

If we think that what they're doing is terrible that will cause more harm than good we can say so.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Brenden751 said:

-snip-

Is that the guy that got one shotted by a Specter as Inaros?

Youtubers don't speak for us. Even if they are charismatic and likeable and make good videos.

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

39 minutes ago, (XB1)HollowCube987 said:

Anyone else think it's dirty that DE nerfed Rhino's infused roar, and then on the HoD hype website, it advertises that you could put Roar on Valkyr if you so desire? They got us hyped for abilitiy swapping during Tennocon 2020, then dissapointed us with the list of infused abilities. We made the most out of the list, and chose some abilities that had high potential. This caused DE to reduce the effectiveness of the 5 abilities and put an additional armor cap on Defy for some reason, which got the community livid for days. DE din't respond to the forums being on fire, instead letting the anger die down on its own.

When I seen the ad for putting Roar on any frame you desire given everything we went through days prior, I was furious enough to chop a phone book in half. It takes Tesla Orbs the size of Canada to get our hopes up, say "No, that's not our vision," slap our hand away, and then make an ad like they didn't just nerf the only good transferable abilities.

If you don't mind, do you mind showing where was this advertised? I don't think I've seen the ad

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

38 minutes ago, krazox said:

-snip-

No one said that. I'm also expressing myself. Please highlight or quote where I said "Don't Express yourself".

[JimmuTanno88]

Just now, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

If you don't mind, do you mind showing where was this advertised? I don't think I've seen the ad

https://www.warframe.com/deimos

[Moraiel]

I think the change to MR 8 is too low, as you would ideally want the players to have an understanding of all the warframes before using this system. And purely by levelling all the base warframes you get enough mastery to reach MR 10. I think it is detrimental to low MR players experience to give them this system, before they have spent time testing the warframes out fully with their base kit.

[Keyhound]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Is that the guy that got one shotted by a Specter as Inaros?

Youtubers don't speak for us. Even if they are charismatic and likeable and make good videos.

im pretty sure he speaks for alot of people. im not his biggest fan, but he aint wrong in criticizing DE's aprouch. he aint even the only streamer to do so. pretty much all of them agreed this was a bad take on their part. and if you check how massive this forum is, you will find many agreeing with them on this as well.

[Adversary]

hace 7 minutos, (PS4)Madurai-Prime dijo:

No one said that. I'm also expressing myself. Please highlight or quote where I said "Don't Express yourself".

Oh yes, I will

hace 17 minutos, (PS4)Madurai-Prime dijo:

Saying 33 abilities are poor shows your bias, and why these nerfs happened. 

You and many others are incapable of thinking about anything except damage. Your vague descriptions of "wanting fun" are just more damage (oh, and needing a wide range pull to do more damage easier).

Many of you have even stated you would choose a 5% Roar over anything else. 

What a rational person would say is that you don't even need the damage, because the damage comes from actually not being lazy and putting more than 2 forma in something, switching your damage based on the faction you're fighting (which again people say they wont do) and acquiring different mods (once again, people say they wont bother with expensive, capacity draining mods because it's too much work or too expensive).

Mods and forma are one of the meat and potatoes of building a strong weapon, yet many people think they only have to put a couple forma in their badly modded weapons and they're good to go for all content. 

You can't put half-hearted effort into your weapons and frames then cover it up with buffs. An unnerfed roar will still cause your damage to fall off, because damage is about mods, forma, faction damage, stripping armor and using abilities to further these things just mentioned. People call Nyx and Banshee trash, yet Nyx strips armor in 1 button and Banshee technically has the capability of highest damage in the game. But these things require actually being decent at the game and doing some research and using more than 2 forma.

Yea, DE "lied" to you and broke your heart. Welcome to online games. They stepped too far out and told you something they may have realized wasn't possible and adjusted accordingly. You guys are gonna have to get over it. That seems to be a running theme with angry forumites: DE didn't do what they said or what the majority wants, let's threaten to kill their game by not playing and not spending money.

You're gonna be upset about many other things in the future. More stuff will get nerfed, especially after Helminth drops. You're gonna have to get used to it. If the game makes you so angry and lied to, you need to either take a break, find some peace about it, or leave, or maybe read a wiki for once. 

 

[(PSN)Brenden751]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Is that the guy that got one shotted by a Specter as Inaros?

Youtubers don't speak for us. Even if they are charismatic and likeable and make good videos.

I never said they did, the point is that chart is actually a pretty solid example and has logic behind it. Without going off the rails on a mod config just to fit an ability into a loadout where it doesn't fit to begin with. (I.E. X frame is normally built for PowerStat1 & PowerStat2 so Y ability fits into Z build.) This chart gives you some idea of what you could potentially do with the abilities. Even then some abilities are just gonna be kind of useless and don't even see much use on the original Warframe's kit and DE needs to look at statistics, realize this, and make them better if they're gonna see any use at all let alone on the Helminth system.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb (XB1)HollowCube987:

Anyone else think it's dirty that DE nerfed Rhino's infused roar, and then on the HoD hype website, it advertises that you could put Roar on Valkyr if you so desire? They got us hyped for abilitiy swapping during Tennocon 2020, then dissapointed us with the list of infused abilities. We made the most out of the list, and chose some abilities that had high potential. This caused DE to reduce the effectiveness of the 5 abilities and put an additional armor cap on Defy for some reason, which got the community livid for days. DE din't respond to the forums being on fire, instead letting the anger die down on its own.

When I seen the ad for putting Roar on any frame you desire given everything we went through days prior, I was furious enough to chop a phone book in half. It takes Tesla Orbs the size of Canada to get our hopes up, say "No, that's not our vision," slap our hand away, and then make an ad like they didn't just nerf the only good transferable abilities.

Those new K-Drive mods though!

[(PSN)phelan_1988]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Saying 33 abilities are poor shows your bias, and why these nerfs happened. 

You and many others are incapable of thinking about anything except damage. Your vague descriptions of "wanting fun" are just more damage (oh, and needing a wide range pull to do more damage easier).

Many of you have even stated you would choose a 5% Roar over anything else. 

What a rational person would say is that you don't even need the damage, because the damage comes from actually not being lazy and putting more than 2 forma in something, switching your damage based on the faction you're fighting (which again people say they wont do) and acquiring different mods (once again, people say they wont bother with expensive, capacity draining mods because it's too much work or too expensive).

Mods and forma are one of the meat and potatoes of building a strong weapon, yet many people think they only have to put a couple forma in their badly modded weapons and they're good to go for all content. 

You can't put half-hearted effort into your weapons and frames then cover it up with buffs. An unnerfed roar will still cause your damage to fall off, because damage is about mods, forma, faction damage, stripping armor and using abilities to further these things just mentioned. People call Nyx and Banshee trash, yet Nyx strips armor in 1 button and Banshee technically has the capability of highest damage in the game. But these things require actually being decent at the game and doing some research and using more than 2 forma.

Yea, DE "lied" to you and broke your heart. Welcome to online games. They stepped too far out and told you something they may have realized wasn't possible and adjusted accordingly. You guys are gonna have to get over it. That seems to be a running theme with angry forumites: DE didn't do what they said or what the majority wants, let's threaten to kill their game by not playing and not spending money.

You're gonna be upset about many other things in the future. More stuff will get nerfed, especially after Helminth drops. You're gonna have to get used to it. If the game makes you so angry and lied to, you need to either take a break, find some peace about it, or leave, or maybe read a wiki for once. 

I haven't seen a single person on here say they *needed* the buffs to kill anything. Steel path sure doesn't require subsumed abilities to clear. The abilities that are poor aren't poor because they don't increase damage, they don't do anything useful - they don't do something you'd want to sacrifice another ability for. Hell, some of them are powers I don't even use when I'm playing the frame they came on. That's the problem here. I'd be hyped if we got some more movement abilities, for example - putting Roar on a Mesa and adding another timer she has to manage doesn't excite me even a little. But then putting it on another frame who doesn't DPS might. Fun doesn't necessarily come from damage, but too many of these aren't going to add any other kind of fun either.

The thing you do at the end here is also pretty weak. Yeah we could all go for a walk or whatever but we're here because we care about the game and we want to express an opinion about how it could be better, etc. "Lol life sucks get used to it" is a lame edgelord take. Caring about things is good, not bad. 

[GNDZer0]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

If you don't mind, do you mind showing where was this advertised? I don't think I've seen the ad

Spoiler

https://www.warframe.com/deimos

Doesn't get much more official than this.
Tho honestly i get why you'd miss this, most people only saw the post or the presentation about it on stream so it's easy to miss.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

1 hour ago, (XB1)HollowCube987 said:

Anyone else think it's dirty that DE nerfed Rhino's infused roar, and then on the HoD hype website, it advertises that you could put Roar on Valkyr if you so desire? They got us hyped for abilitiy swapping during Tennocon 2020, then dissapointed us with the list of infused abilities. We made the most out of the list, and chose some abilities that had high potential. This caused DE to reduce the effectiveness of the 5 abilities and put an additional armor cap on Defy for some reason, which got the community livid for days. DE din't respond to the forums being on fire, instead letting the anger die down on its own.

When I seen the ad for putting Roar on any frame you desire given everything we went through days prior, I was furious enough to chop a phone book in half. It takes Tesla Orbs the size of Canada to get our hopes up, say "No, that's not our vision," slap our hand away, and then make an ad like they didn't just nerf the only good transferable abilities.

Yeah. Because it's easier to nerf good stuff instead of buffing crappy stuff. Almost like how they wanted to nerf Slash instead of buffing Puncture and Impact a few years back.

The anti-hype is real.
Honestly not really looking forward to HoD now. Just another open world grind, to be left in the dust in a year just like PoE and OV. Got college to worry about anyways, so I'll just watch the fire burn from afar.

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

6 minutes ago, GNDZer0 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://www.warframe.com/deimos

Doesn't get much more official than this.

Unfortunate. I'm gonna put it on all my frames and hope they regret giving us the option of putting Roar on everything.

[Hawk197]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Saying 33 abilities are poor shows your bias, and why these nerfs happened. 

You and many others are incapable of thinking about anything except damage. Your vague descriptions of "wanting fun" are just more damage (oh, and needing a wide range pull to do more damage easier).

Many of you have even stated you would choose a 5% Roar over anything else. 

What a rational person would say is that you don't even need the damage, because the damage comes from actually not being lazy and putting more than 2 forma in something, switching your damage based on the faction you're fighting (which again people say they wont do) and acquiring different mods (once again, people say they wont bother with expensive, capacity draining mods because it's too much work or too expensive).

Mods and forma are one of the meat and potatoes of building a strong weapon, yet many people think they only have to put a couple forma in their badly modded weapons and they're good to go for all content. 

You can't put half-hearted effort into your weapons and frames then cover it up with buffs. An unnerfed roar will still cause your damage to fall off, because damage is about mods, forma, faction damage, stripping armor and using abilities to further these things just mentioned. People call Nyx and Banshee trash, yet Nyx strips armor in 1 button and Banshee technically has the capability of highest damage in the game. But these things require actually being decent at the game and doing some research and using more than 2 forma.

Yea, DE "lied" to you and broke your heart. Welcome to online games. They stepped too far out and told you something they may have realized wasn't possible and adjusted accordingly. You guys are gonna have to get over it. That seems to be a running theme with angry forumites: DE didn't do what they said or what the majority wants, let's threaten to kill their game by not playing and not spending money.

You're gonna be upset about many other things in the future. More stuff will get nerfed, especially after Helminth drops. You're gonna have to get used to it. If the game makes you so angry and lied to, you need to either take a break, find some peace about it, or leave, or maybe read a wiki for once. 

First off, no. We recognize that a team ability like Roar, Warcry, Dispensary, or even Larva, is better than Decoy, Airburst, Terrify, or Mind Control.

Second, many of the abilities that are given right now conflict with one another. Why use Decoy, which is a stationary piece of paper, when you could choose Resonator, which is the same thing but moves around and has unlimited health?

Third, the point of us choosing a 5% Roar over other abilities is, because if you read my first point again, it's more beneficial to the team, and it's more effective than Ice Wave or Reave. We're choosing a 5% Roar because it's the better choice given. You're not going to look at a brand new 2020 Mustang at 25,000 and a used 2020 Mustang at 25,000 and decide the used is the better value.

Fourth, not true. For the entire start chart, we can easily forego Formas, Potatos, and even maxed out Mods. We only do these things because boredom. You think these Memeframers are putting a 100 or more Forma into a bad Warframe because it needs it?

Fifth, not true either. Again, we don't need alot of stuff for star charting. Heck, many people WEAKEN themselves on purpose because this game doesn't challenge them.

Sixth, DE lied. We're not butthurt because "Oh no, my precious number go beeger ability got nerfed!" we're butthurt because these abilities were the only ones worth using. Seriously, no one actually giving a damn will choose trash like Silence over Roar. We're also upset because this was something for Veterans. You know, the community that's been starving for stuff to do for ages now? New players got tons of stuff to do. They can even do Plains of Eidolon within the first hour of playing!

Seventh, we've dealt with this stuff time and again. Veterans are leaving this game constantly. I'd imagine so many of us left the game that DE was forced to finally redo their new player experience. We got tired of being the teacher. I've yet to bother teaching new players anything for over 2 years now. They'll be gone in a month anyways, but if they do survive the hassle then they'll start to see everything us Veterans have been preaching and shouting for ages now.

[(PSN)phelan_1988]

2 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Yeah. Because it's easier to nerf good stuff instead of buffing crappy stuff. Almost like how they wanted to nerf Slash instead of buffing Puncture and Impact a few years back.

The anti-hype is real.

oh no they were gonna 'buff' puncture and impact, just in ways that wouldn't actually help at all. Because 75% damage debuff and ragdolling enemies would really be better than, you know, just killing them in this meta.

I'm really worried about that one single heavy gunner's damage, better put a puncture proc on her... oh no wait she and everyone else in the room is dead already, and now they do ZERO damage

[AEP8FlyBoy]

1 minute ago, (PS4)phelan_1988 said:

oh no they were gonna 'buff' puncture and impact, just in ways that wouldn't actually help at all. Because 75% damage debuff and ragdolling enemies would really be better than, you know, just killing them in this meta.

I'm really worried about that one single heavy gunner's damage, better put a puncture proc on her... oh no wait she and everyone else in the room is dead already, and now they do ZERO damage

Exactly. The damage type that leads to an enemy being a non-threat fastest is the best.
Best damage reduction is no damage being dealt in the first place.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Silence sometimes speaks louder than any words.

Is it funny that I'm more hyped for a mobile game update tomorrow than I am for this?

[Krankbert]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (XB1)HollowCube987:

Anyone else think it's dirty that DE nerfed Rhino's infused roar, and then on the HoD hype website, it advertises that you could put Roar on Valkyr if you so desire? They got us hyped for abilitiy swapping during Tennocon 2020, then dissapointed us with the list of infused abilities.

The list of infused abilities is way better than anything anyone could reasonably have expected based on what was shown at Tennocon. No one in their right mind would have thought "they showed Shock and Ice Wave, I'm so excited to get Warding Halo and Vex Armor, oh noes, it's only Roar".

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)Brenden751:

Okay I love Warframe but I'm not gonna sugar coat this... these nerfs are actually completely pointless and are killing the hype of what could've been a fantastic & exciting update and was even bringing back old players! It is outright stated the nerfs are not because they are overpowered, it's because they will be popular.

And why does DE think they will be popular? Because they are clearly the strongest abilites by far. You're stretching DE's statement well past the point of an outright lie.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

And why does DE think they will be popular? Because they are clearly the strongest abilites. You're stretching DE's statement well past the point of an outright lie.

Maybe we just need more strong abilities then? Ya know, instead of clipping the tall grass, maybe fertilizing the grass that's been needing sustenance for years?

[Hawk197]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

And why does DE think they will be popular? Because they are clearly the strongest abilites. You're stretching DE's statement well past the point of an outright lie.

Why not buff weaker ones? Or change how they function? Like, how about Mirages Decoy casts the same power you do at -70% strength? Or how about Wisps Resonator can pick up Reservoirs? Is that to hard? Fine, how about just increasing the effectiveness? Dispensary gives Mega Health, which isn't as good as Well of Life, still gives more overall resources to the team, so how about giving Well of Life an "Overhealth" style buff?

[Krankbert]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb AEP8FlyBoy:

Maybe we just need more strong abilities then? Ya know, instead of clipping the tall grass, maybe fertilizing the grass that's been needing sustenance for years?

Yeah, given the option to either nerf a few outliers or rework all warframes at the same time, why wouldn't you overhaul the entire game. That's the difference between you and DE. You can propose all you want because you don't have to care for feasibility. DE would have to actually do it.