outseeker Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 Sorry if this has already been said, but I just don't have time for 24 pages lol I tried to give my Nekros a 2nd helminth ability to replace one of his own, and instead of him having 2 cool abilities and 2 of his own, the previously infused one was removed. Sure, that makes sense if you want us to be limited to giving each warframe one subsumed ability, however you really need to warn us!! I got no kind of popup to say ok if you add this ability to replace Nekros's 2, it will remove the one you replaced his 1 with. The whole process was just exactly the same as when I gave Nekros the first subsumed ability. Rip bile and all the other stuff I had fed my helminth :< *edit: if i had known or was warned that only 1 subsumed ability per frame was allowable, I would have replaced a different ability. Problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantophage Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 While I am 100% ok with all resource feed costs except railjack resources and bile (1 hour of excavations for 1 cryotic feed?) and I think that subsuming a warframe costs are pretty fair. I think that infusing an ability should have greatly reduced/free costs. Making it cost a lot to put a power on a frame is not going to encourage creativity. If I have I am curious how good an ability is, but on the fence between said ability and a meta ability, 9 times out of 10 people will just pick the meta ability rather than wait 24 hours so that they can feed the helminth. as it currently stands the closest we have to being able to experiment is to infuse different abilities onto different slots (roar in A config, pillage in B config, etc.) If you decide you want your B config to be your main build there is no way to unbind the ability to B. meaning to get that to be the main ability you have infuse the same ability again. Let us switch which configuration infused abilities are tied to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outseeker Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 On 2020-08-26 at 8:41 AM, xcrimsonlegendx said: I just went to speak to helminth with my Nidus and it automatically popped his cyst. The cyst he's had since I started playing the game. It didn't say "cure cyst" like it normally does, it just said "Helminth". I actually kept it because i liked how it looked and now I can't get it back. So I'm just going to have to get a new Nidus, even though this one has all of my damned umbral forma in it. Some kind of warning would be nice, this experience has totally ruined my mood and I'm done playing for today. I had this happen on one of my frames, as soon as it started playing the cut scene I hit alt-f4 but it was too late >.< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, pantophage said: encourage creativity The devs were creative when they created warframes, the abilities, and devised a system for how to mix things up. They are the creators, and we are the consumers. Who cares about our so-called creativity when we take an ability from a frame A and put in into frame B. Do you really feel creative when you do that? I hope you don't because that's an incredibly low bar for what it means to be creative. To create is to create new value. You don't create new value by moving within the constraints of predetermined system. The only value you've created is enjoyment for yourself, but only you get to avail from it, and it only lasts a limited time until you crave new things to consume. That is the result of the process of creation and consumption, that you see on your side - as a consumer. To call that process creativity on your part is highly presumptuous. That isn't real creativity. This creativity that is spoken of by the people who petition for cost reduction is a false construct used to justify the cost reduction, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantophage Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said: why should replacing abilities be encouraged? Imagine wanting players to use the mechanics you introduce 1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said: that's the original vision for the helminth system Hmmm, looks like you want stamina and limited revives back, since that was part of the original vision. 20 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: Who cares DE apparently, you do realize this is a feedback thread right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 don't quote me out of context like that, it's completely unacceptable edit: when i said "who cares" it's a part of a sentence and a thought that isn't reflected in your reply at all. you make it look like i devalue other people's perspective, as in "who cares about what you're saying" and that's not what i meant at all which is clear from my actual post. admittedly i did quote just two words of your post, but i didn't misrepresent what you were saying, just criticizing a notion brought up by several people posting recently - - - On 2020-09-16 at 5:56 PM, pantophage said: Imagine wanting players to use the mechanics you introduce Hmmm, looks like you want stamina and limited revives back, since that was part of the original vision. de wants some players (very experienced ones) to use the new mechanics to a limited degree they don't want to make helminth an obligatory thing where before each mission you feel like you need to swap abilities to have an optimal loadout they don't want to make this intrinsic thing which are abilities to be seen as part of a flexible loadout customizing experience, but to remain something intrinsic to each frame; and you still have a lot of flexibility by being able to fit a separate ability to each config slot about stamina and revives, that's offtopic i value the original vision for what it is while several people don't even care to understand it, they just pretend the system is something it's not, and the things they don't like about it - they claim to be broken, when they're working as intended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quxier Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said: Who cares about our so-called creativity when we take an ability from a frame A and put in into frame B. Do you really feel creative when you do that? I hope you don't because that's an incredibly low bar for what it means to be creative. To create is to create new value. You don't create new value by moving within the constraints of predetermined system. The only value you've created is enjoyment for yourself, but only you get to avail from it, and it only lasts a limited time until you crave new things to consume. That is the result of the process of creation and consumption, that you see on your side - as a consumer. To call that process creativity on your part is highly presumptuous. That isn't real creativity. This creativity that is spoken of by the people who petition for cost reduction is a false construct used to justify the cost reduction, nothing else. Man you are so against lowering cost of resources that you say someone is creative and something is not. That's wrong. They are creating one frame (4 abilities + 1 passive). Now we have 39 abilities times 35 frames. Add various mods, arcanes etc and you have very huge collection of data that creative person can use. And they are doing the same. They pick theme, like food. They chose abilities. So frame eat. What it eats? Enemies - aside from few drops it cannot eat anything else. If you eat you get more power - aka buffs. You sometimes vomit food. That's your 1-3 abilities. That's not very creative. It requires a lot of work. From graphic/animation designers - how new frame would look & move. From sound designers - what sounds it makes when moving, attacking etc. They need to pick right values for a new frame. Someone has to program it. That's lot of work. Not every frame had to be creative. I checked Garuda. Not very creative.... however VERY well done frame. On the other hand the Protea is more creative (at least her 4th) but it hasn't been implemented very good (it's very usable/enjoyable and bugs are related to some specific weapons). To sum up I think you mistakes creativity with hard work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 The original vision of this system, as stated by the devs, was to encourage creativity and experimentation. They emphasised it would be for veterans because of the sacrifice of warframes, but nowhere did they outline that resource costs would be as large of a sacrifice as it is. I was prepared for the frame costs, farmed every single one before the update. The resource costs are ridiculous. They disincentivize creativity and experimentation, which is what the devs intended for this system. They tried to encourage it by nerfing abilities they thought would be the overwhelming choice, because they WANTED experimentation and creativity. The nerfs they implemented was their first oopsie, their second oopsie was lowering the MR requirement, but these resource costs are BY FAR the biggest damn oingo boingo upsie daisy oopsie poopsy woopsie. Some people in this thread will say the devs are the producers and we are the consumers. AS IF THAT MEANS SOMETHING. Do you consume dung if a producer flings it your way and tells you to eat up? I wouldn't bloody think so. The consumer is the one who decides what to eat and when, and if you don't serve what the consumer is hungry for, the consumer goes to eat at another restaurant. Some people in this thread, of course, will lick the boot of producers, but more reasonable people will actually voice their greivances with this system. We will not lick the boot, we want to eat good food at a reasonable price, not mediocre food at the price of 48 minutes of cryotic farming. Rant over. Don't @ me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 On 2020-09-16 at 6:56 PM, quxier said: Man you are so against lowering cost of resources that you say someone is creative and something is not. That's wrong. They are creating one frame (4 abilities + 1 passive). Now we have 39 abilities times 35 frames. Add various mods, arcanes etc and you have very huge collection of data that creative person can use. ... figuring out a build that works for what you're trying to in a mission do isn't creativity but simply playing the game matching arcanes to your build so that you can extract some utility, again, isn't creativity swapping 1 ability with 1 other ability is far below the bar of what it means to create something new. you can say "but i'm putting fire walker on ember because ember is heat-themed, how creative is that!?"... well it's a theme which already existed, and it was created by DE, not by yourself if you could infuse 1 ability and change the frames identity, like change it's theme to something else and configure it's appearance to go alongside that new theme, give it a name for example, that's great, and a little bit creative indeed... but if you're really into that kind of purpose for helminth - why do you need free infuse? you're not going to get an idea for such a creative thematic overhaul of a frame five times a day what people want is sandbox mode to discover the most efficient infuse choices, they want the meta, in order to fulfill their power fantasy. and they wan't it as fast as possible and as free as possible there's no creativity in that, just a consumption-driven need for fulfillment On 2020-09-16 at 7:50 PM, RivaAurelius said: The original vision of this system, as stated by the devs, was to encourage creativity and experimentation. ... i mean not that i don't believe you've seen such a statement from a DE person but i can't find it these are the official announcements: sources https://www.warframe.com/deimos https://www.warframe.com/news/delve-into-heart-of-deimos googling helminth and creative/creativity or experiment/experimentation on DE sites yields no relevant results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callback Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 Here are the costs per feeding and my thoughts on problem instances. 15,000 Alloy Plate 10,000 Carbides 20,000 Ferrite 25 Gallium 750 Oxium A bit on the pricey side, but not too egregious. I might cut it down to 500. 20,000 Salvage 10 Tellurium Way too much for how rare the drops is in single quantities, plus the high price of existing sinks for Fortuna cosmetics. Make it 3-5 and it would feel ok. 20,000 Titanium Imbalanced compared to other railjack resources. I would suggest 5000-8000 to keep it balanced with the rest of the more common ones. 5,000 Asterite Insanely high. Even the most expensive Asterite repairs use 1440. I would cut this down to 500. 12,500 Cubic Diodes Fair, but surprising that it doesn't match carbides at a flat 10k. 300 Gallos Rods Super high for such an uncommon resource . I would say 100 at most but ideally around 50. 30 Grokdrul 300 Hexenon Really high for a resource like this, considering you get 15 as a disruption round reward plus a few scattered drops. 50-100 at most. 50 Iradite 50 Lucent Teroglobe 225 Nullstones Holy Hek why is this so high? This is a super rare resource. The most expensive Nullstone repair costs 8. EIGHT! This should be at 10-15 at max. 6,000 Rubedo 8 Dusklight Sarracenia 8 Frostleaf 50 Ganglion 25 Gorgaricus Spore 8 Lunar Pitcher 50 Maprico 8 Moonlight Dragonlily 8 Moonlight Jadeleaf 8 Moonlight Threshcone 8 Mytocardia Spore 25 Nistlepod 25 Pustulite 8 Ruk's Claw 8 Sunlight Dragonlily 8 Sunlight Jadeleaf 8 Sunlight Threshcone 50 Tepa Nodule 8 Vestan Moss This entire category seems very fair. 25 Aucrux Capacitors Just like nullstones these are super rare with the most expensive repair needing 5. I wouldn't put this above 10. 7,000 Circuits 75 Control Module 125 Detonite Ampule 125 Fieldron Sample 300 Kesslers I might go 100-150 based on rarity. 25 Komms Not the worst but 15 might feel better. 25 Neural Sensors 15 Orokin Cell 12,500 Polymer Bundle 2,000 Bracoid Did the same guy who typed in the hema research numbers do this!!? Mission bonuses for these give you 2. Repairs need 16. Cut this back to 10-20 at max. 3 Infected Palpators Not sure how to feel about the Juggernaut resources. Might be ok with the Deimos juggs more commonly around? Just not sure if 2 would feel like a nicer number for these. 125 Mutagen Sample I know it's the same as the other clantech resources, but those don't have the hema draining your soul out through your eye sockets. Also 100x health restore is unreasonable as well. 20,000 Nano Spores 15 Neurodes 4,000 Plastids 3 Pulsating Tubercles 15,000 Pustrels Why more than carbides' 10k? It's not terrible but feels off. 3 Severed Bile Sac 10,000 Trachons Again, how did you manage to make the railjack resources so imbalanced in this system? You get 25 as a bonus. Repairs need 1800 and those are expensive. Put this at 500-1000 if you want anyone to ever be able to use it. 3 Argon Crystal Not a bad quantity but because of how argon decays it needs to be farmed on demand and 3 feels like a chore. 2 would feel nicer. 15,000 Copernics Still not sure why it's 1.5x more than carbides, but it's not too bad. 3,000 Cryotic 30 extractors? For one feeding? Are you insane? Make it 150-250 and we might consider. 5 Diluted Thermia No. Just no. This stuff takes a lot to farm. Make it 1 and maybe some people will have extra that they don't want to use as exploiter keys. 1,000 Fresnels Again with the horribly imbalanced Railjack resources. The thing that comes in 2s as mission reward and is needed in at most 20 for repairs should not take more than that same 20 for a single feeding. 400 Isos Like the other railjack resources. 100 or so would feel more fair. 40 Morphics 50 Thermal Sludge 10 Somatic Fibers These drop pretty rarely from only 1 node anywhere. And yes, you will get more fibers than can be used on lens BPs, but going beyond 5 per feeding is a bit much. This is definitely the worst category, due to the small number of options and so many of them being so overpriced. Needs re-pricing and maybe a few other resource options like scrap (fortuna fishing) and antiserum injector fragments that would still fit the theme. And lastly the sentient appetite which isn't an actual feeding but just restores the effectiveness of other categories. 2 Anomaly Shard 5 Cetus Wisp 75 Intact Sentient Core 10 Exceptional Sentient Core 5 Flawless Sentient Core I might balance out the 3 cores. I say 50 intact 10 exceptional 4 flawless, to keep it at a roughly even amount of potential Quills rep per feeding. Otherwise ok for the weird way this category works. Maybe cut anomaly shards down to 1 considering what you go through for each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: dupe, sorry "What are my safeguards? Since you can remove an Ability at any time with the click of a button, you’ll be able to safely experiment with many creative combinations." Note the word "experiment" in that sentence. Funny thing tho, pretty hard to "experiment" if it costs you an arm and a leg every single time something doesn't work. Not exactly "safe", kek. Also note the word "creative" in that sentence. Pretty hard to be creative when the whole system disincentivizes you to do that, and instead go for the meta. Kek. It's almost as if the devs DID intend for creativity and experimentation, but made a big oopsie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 thanks, that's a fair counterexample. i forgot about that post and the phrasing used in it. yeah, the way it's described there is a bit misleading and incongruent with both what was generally announced (accent is on "FEED the helminth..." not on "many creative combinations"), and with what was shipped i'd ascribe this misalignment... in understanding... to ... imprecise language 🧐 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantophage Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 t 18 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: quote me out of context Insert 'I think coolsville sucks' meme here Jokes, aside though, I did represent what you said. Your whole comment boils down to: Creativity is defined by creating something. Helminth is a mechanic made by DE, So players cannot be creative with it since they did not create it. 2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said: To create is to create new value. So, if players cannot create, then they cannot add value. And if players cannot add value, nothing they do in game has value 32 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: you make it look like i devalue other people's perspective no, having an argument that says nothing you do here has any value tends to do that. 53 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: they don't want to make this intrinsic thing which are abilities to be seen as part of a loadout, but to remain intrinsic to each frame if they wanted it to be intrinsic to each frame instead of part of a loadout, I would think that they would have made it replace the ability on all configurations. 8 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: there's no creativity in that, just a consumption-driven need for fulfillment Imagine wanting fulfillment out of anything. Just because someone gets enjoyment from something other than what you do doesn't make it bad 1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said: about stamina and revives, that's offtopic i value the original vision for what it is while several people don't even care to understand it, they just pretend the system is something it's not, and the things they don't like about it - they claim to be broken, when they're working as intended stamina and revives worked as intended, but ultimately were removed. Which is my point. "as intended" does not necessarily mean perfect or good. Once again this is a feedback thread. If DE was as committed to the dictated consumer/producer relationship as you are they would not have have this thread. You've said your piece, we get it, you like the system as is. Calling other peoples comments worthless isn't being constructive with your disagreements. Your last commment with 'creativ wher?' basically cements that you aren't here in good faith as you didn't even bother to read past the synopsis of those pages as RivaAurelius was able to find 'where creativ' pretty easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Traubenzuckr said: thanks, that's a fair counterexample. i forgot about that post and the phrasing used in it. yeah, the way it's described there is a bit misleading and incongruent with both what was generally announced (accent is on "FEED the helminth..." not on "many creative combinations"), and with what was shipped i'd ascribe this misalignment... in understanding... to ... imprecise language 🧐 You want to be right so bad you're willing to be this disengenuous. You wonder why the majority of players in this thread have a problem with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 On 2020-09-16 at 8:57 PM, RivaAurelius said: You want to be right so bad you're willing to be this disengenuous. You wonder why the majority of players in this thread have a problem with you. i don't care about what any group thinks about me, this isn't a popularity contest. you've given some evidence in the direction of "less restrictive / more experimentation" and i literally wrote "fair counterexample". i think i'm being pretty reasonable here, and you call me disingenuous for me it's a not definitive evidence, and the language is still imprecise, that's a fact. what about the quotes i posted which prominently talk about "feed the helminth..." and don't mention any kind of creativiry or experimentation? On 2020-09-16 at 8:55 PM, pantophage said: Calling other peoples comments worthless... it seems you are still pushing this insinuation, just as when you quoted that "Don't care" fragment of my sentence implying i somehow suppress people and take away from their ability to give feedback. you are a cunning one, i'll give you that. relevant people reading this topic appreciate the dialogue. the side in this debate which i represent may not be very numerous here*** but the diversity of my argumentation is just as broad as the other side's *** you'll find it in greater numbers elsewhere, they just don't have the tenacity that i have, or are not aware that their viewpoints in favor of status quo are also perfectly legitimate feedback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 36 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: i don't care about what any group thinks about me, this isn't a popularity contest. you've given some evidence in the direction of "less restrictive" and i literally wrote "fair counterexample". i think i'm being pretty reasonable here, and you call me disingenuous for me it's a not definitive evidence, and the language is still imprecise, that's a fact. what about the quotes i posted which prominently talk about "feed the helminth..." and don't mention any kind of creativiry or experimentation? Lol tenacity. Whatever makes you feel good about yourself. When they say feed the helminth, I am pretty sure they did not say to feed the helminth unrealistic levels of resources. Or are you gonna find evidence to clearly implicate the devs intended for you to farm for literal hours for just one feed in some cases? I don't think so. You found quotes that didn't include their vision for creativity or experimentation, I did. But suddenly the evidence I find is worded "imprecisely". You found official statements concerning the Helminth CHRYSALIS system, but it isn't even officially known as that anymore. How is your evidence so up to snuff and mine is suddenly faulty? You are being disengenuous, and you're not even in this thread to give feedback, you're here to pick verbal fights and start debates with people who have legitimate greivances. I haven't seen you complain of a single issue, so why are you in this thread, if not to stop others from voicing their legitimate issues or devalue their statements? If you have a greivance with the system, great. If you don't, then kindly let others that DO have an issue voice it, we should not have to legitimise our opinions based on your arbitrary, elitist, unreasonable, snobby, disengenuous logic. Kindly let other people voice their issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quxier Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said: figuring out a build that works for what you're trying to in a mission do isn't creativity but simply playing the game matching arcanes to your build so that you can extract some utility, again, isn't creativity swapping 1 ability with 1 other ability is far below the bar of what it means to create something new. you can say "but i'm putting fire walker on ember because ember is heat-themed, how creative is that!?"... well it's a theme which already existed, and it was created by DE, not by yourself if you could infuse 1 ability and change the frames identity, like change it's theme to something else and configure it's appearance to go alongside that new theme, give it a name for example, that's great, and a little bit creative indeed... but if you're really into that kind of purpose for helminth - why do you need free infuse? you're not going to get an idea for such a creative thematic overhaul of a frame five times a day what people want is sandbox mode to discover the most efficient infuse choices, they want the meta, in order to fulfill their power fantasy. and they wan't it as fast as possible and as free as possible there's no creativity in that, just a consumption-driven need for fulfillment Figuring how DE create new frame isn't creativity as well, by your logic. Many abilities will be just "stronger" or "faster". However some will create something "new". Put Firewalker on Grendel and you have ball on fire. Little creative I would say. Why we need free infuse? I would rather have Simulacrum 2.0 where you can swap every ability, set any values (like health or speed) without mods to any value and much other. If we don't have something like this it's obvious that people want to experiment. Creative process is not something that make in one second. It has many trials and errors. You may not call it "creativity". I don't really care. However people want to experiment with this "potential" (that you quoted somewhere). This either needs less costs or "Simulacrum 2.0". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, RivaAurelius said: Lol tenacity. Whatever makes you feel good about yourself. When they say feed the helminth, I am pretty sure they did not say to feed the helminth unrealistic levels of resources. Or are you gonna find evidence to clearly implicate the devs intended for you to farm for literal hours for just one feed in some cases? I don't think so. You found quotes that didn't include their vision for creativity or experimentation, I did. But suddenly the evidence I find is worded "imprecisely". You found official statements concerning the Helminth CHRYSALIS system, but it isn't even officially known as that anymore. How is your evidence so up to snuff and mine is suddenly faulty? You are being disengenuous, and you're not even in this thread to give feedback, you're here to pick verbal fights and start debates with people who have legitimate greivances. I haven't seen you complain of a single issue, so why are you in this thread, if not to stop others from voicing their legitimate issues or devalue their statements? If you have a greivance with the system, great. If you don't, then kindly let others that DO have an issue voice it, we should not have to legitimise our opinions based on your arbitrary, elitist, unreasonable, snobby, disengenuous logic. Kindly let other people voice their issues. i don't want to hear things about myself. do i talk about you? no, i stick to the topic. i am immune to hollow accusations and insinuations regarding my conduct and motivations. i'm like rhino - "can't touch this" mode. it's impossible to shut me up this way. on topic: i respect your evidence and didn't call it faulty. but my evidence isn't faulty either. we will see a clarification on this matter eventually. if DE really intended there to be unfettered experimentation, some of the costs will be nerfed, i don't deny that. my feedback thus far consists in the following: - i like the helminth system - i like that there is a genuine resource sink, and i don't want this to be ruined by nerfing the costs, particularly not by nerfing accessible old resources like cryotic; having a lot of cryotic is the hallmark of a very experienced player - i think the arguments for nerfing the costs thus far haven't been solid - some of the costs could be lowered like fresnels, but it's a minor issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 9 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: i don't want to hear things about myself. do i talk about you? no, i stick to the topic. i am immune to hollow accusations and insinuations regarding my conduct and motivations. i'm like rhino - "can't touch this" mode. it's impossible to shut me up this way. on topic: i respect your evidence and didn't call it faulty. but my evidence isn't faulty either. we will see a clarification on this matter eventually. if DE really intended there to be unfettered experimentation, some of the costs will be nerfed, i don't deny that. my feedback thus far consists in the following: - i like the helminth system - i like that there is a genuine resource sink, and i don't want this to be ruined by nerfing the costs, particularly not by nerfing accessible old resources like cryotic; having a lot of cryotic is the hallmark of a very experienced player - i think the arguments for nerfing the costs thus far haven't been solid - some of the costs could be lowered like fresnels, but it's a minor issue I am not trying to shut you up. I am simply telling you that I and other people in this thread will not jump through your hoops, nor will we be expected to jump through your hoops, when voicing our opinions. You didn't call my evidence faulty, but you sure as sugar did dismiss it as "imprecise". If by that logic, you can dismiss my evidence, then by the same logic, I can dismiss your "evidence". I would like to point out by the way, that your "evidence" was the absence of evidence. I, however, demonstrated that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Your arguments are about as solid as a piece of ikea furniture though. "Having a lot of cryotic is the hallmark of a very experienced player". Since when? See why I used the words arbitrary, elitist, snobby, etc when describing the logic you use? Because it describes perfectly the logic you use. "arguments for 'nerfing' the costs thus far haven't been solid". Oh yes they have buddy. Again, your arbitrary, elitist logic at play. "Some of the costs could be lowered, but it's a minor issue". So minor that there are multiple threads asking for the costs to be adjusted? By the way, changing the costs would not be a "nerf". Stop trying to frame it with that lense, it's another reason we think you're disengenuous. Submit your greivances, hope the devs listen, and let other people do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Schokolade_ Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 can rank 10 reduce cost of consuming resources my 75%? since it currently doesnt do anything when you hit max rank. also why is DE so damn slow on this? when people said Proteas 1st was weak they changed it within a weak. Far more people are complaining about this and they havent done jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 2 hours ago, RivaAurelius said: I am not trying to shut you up. I am simply telling you that I and other people in this thread will not jump through your hoops, nor will we be expected to jump through your hoops, when voicing our opinions. You didn't call my evidence faulty, but you sure as sugar did dismiss it as "imprecise". If by that logic, you can dismiss my evidence, then by the same logic, I can dismiss your "evidence". I would like to point out by the way, that your "evidence" was the absence of evidence. I, however, demonstrated that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Your arguments are about as solid as a piece of ikea furniture though. "Having a lot of cryotic is the hallmark of a very experienced player". Since when? See why I used the words arbitrary, elitist, snobby, etc when describing the logic you use? Because it describes perfectly the logic you use. "arguments for 'nerfing' the costs thus far haven't been solid". Oh yes they have buddy. Again, your arbitrary, elitist logic at play. "Some of the costs could be lowered, but it's a minor issue". So minor that there are multiple threads asking for the costs to be adjusted? By the way, changing the costs would not be a "nerf". Stop trying to frame it with that lense, it's another reason we think you're disengenuous. Submit your greivances, hope the devs listen, and let other people do the same. The way the helminth feature is decribed in my examples looks like the definition of what it's meant to be: - You feed to get something: potential customization I take this definition to be exhaustive meaning it sums up the system in it's entirety (albeit tersely), but you don't. OK, a matter of interpretation, treacherous terrain certainly. Your qualificatons "arbitrary", "elitist" etc just bounce off me like they're nothing. You can call me an elitist a million times it won't change my thinking. And i'm not your buddy yet, if you want us to be friends, you'll have to drop the acerbic tone when talking to me. The "nerf" instead of "lower" is something someone else used earlier and it just stuck, I'll try to stop saying it that way, no problem, i see that it's loaded language. About the argumentum ad populum that you're such a fan of - I see a degree dissatisfaction and even bitterness from some users but it doesn't look warranted from my perspective. I could call these people various names now to explain where this is coming from (i probably already have earlier, but in this instance i'll refrain) like you are using various names on me but I won't stoop to your level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 There are still flowers that are default pink, thus they aren't taking the color of the frame. Additionally, there are flowers positioned INSIDE THE wall, and thus they aren't fully visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 12 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said: why should replacing abilities be encouraged? if you really want to do it, it's an option, but a costly one. that's the original vision for the helminth system, it's a radical alteration of a warframe making warframe into more of a sandbox style game is unhealthy in the long run Ah. Yes. They put in a system that they don't want to encourage use of? Nice logic. Yeah, let me put in a ton of work on a systen and NOT want it used and had fun with. DE wants this to be FUN considering they are game developers. You, as one person, do not know what is wholly healthy for this game, nor can you be sure of their intent. Not to mention, DE's intent is constantly changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarsyphon Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 It looks funny when you put wisps breach surge on other frames because they do the weird wisp flip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeDeetheSpy Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 As someone who loves Ivara, I am annoyed of the number of powers I cannot use while on wires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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