(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 33 minutes ago, DeeDeetheSpy said: As someone who loves Ivara, I am annoyed of the number of powers I cannot use while on wires. Zipline and ability interactions need an overhaul in general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clazzeh Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 I'm enjoying it for the most part, though bile seems crazy expensive with a smaller resource pool than the other secretions, it's getting a bit hard to keep up my subsume due to it xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endorphinz Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Like, if 99 people think the helminth costs should be lowered and 1 person thinks they're fine, then the reasonable course is probably to lower the cost, right? Maybe not, there's been other instances where majority of players want something, but DE just says too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarbageWitch Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Bile costs are pretty awful, coming only from rare hard to farm resources. It really needs a serious reduction in cost if the materials stay the same, or move some more common materials over to that category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)EzzyTexan Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 I’m have an issue or maybe it’s just not in the cards but I was playing with idea that I could equip a power on one configuration or a power I didn’t want on another configuration apply same power over a different one on different configuration. I.E Pillage over pulse on Configuration B and on Configuration C Pillage over Pull. But for some odd reason the Helminth only allows for you to remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaotea Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 20 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said: making warframe into more of a sandbox style game is unhealthy in the long run Stagnation is unhealthy for warframe. Making the hymolith system more accessable incourages interaction in other systems, like unique game modes to earn frames (like protea and grendal) as players are more likely to want to gather duplicate frames. And DE obviously dont feel that way. Think about it. Zaws, kitguns, soon to be modular arcwings. The game is moving more and more towards a more customisable systems overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quxier Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 minute ago, chaotea said: And DE obviously dont feel that way. Think about it. Zaws, kitguns, soon to be modular arcwings. The game is moving more and more towards a more customisable systems overall. It's more like "pick characteristic you like and cannot change it" thing. Only new customizable frames are truly customizable... with some limitations of course. It's because Helminth can change frame every time you want. You don't have to build new frame just to put new ability. I wish they went into changeable systems. Imagine that you can change part of your Zaw. And even better, in game. ps. it's still something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xepthrichros Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Since Cryotic is now needed in significant amounts for Helminth, I think the resource can be added back to the Railjack loot table. More ways to get cryotic is better than doing excavations all day every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 27 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said: Since Cryotic is now needed in significant amounts for Helminth, I think the resource can be added back to the Railjack loot table. More ways to get cryotic is better than doing excavations all day every day. All the more reason that excavators in Open world bounties should give cryotic. 50 per would make sense. Maybe even 25. It would be less, because you aren't looking for it in particular: You just find some when mining. It would be sensible, for balance, to have it lower too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 12 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said: The way the helminth feature is decribed in my examples looks like the definition of what it's meant to be: - You feed to get something: potential customization I take this definition to be exhaustive meaning it sums up the system in it's entirety (albeit tersely), but you don't. OK, a matter of interpretation, treacherous terrain certainly. Your qualificatons "arbitrary", "elitist" etc just bounce off me like they're nothing. You can call me an elitist a million times it won't change my thinking. And i'm not your buddy yet, if you want us to be friends, you'll have to drop the acerbic tone when talking to me. The "nerf" instead of "lower" is something someone else used earlier and it just stuck, I'll try to stop saying it that way, no problem, i see that it's loaded language. About the argumentum ad populum that you're such a fan of - I see a degree dissatisfaction and even bitterness from some users but it doesn't look warranted from my perspective. I could call these people various names now to explain where this is coming from (i probably already have earlier, but in this instance i'll refrain) like you are using various names on me but I won't stoop to your level. Nowhere does it say to feed the helminth literal hours of your time for a single feed though. It does say feed the helminth, but not with your life. Rehashing the fact that they said feed it isn't gonna make it any more reasonable. Also notice, I did not call YOU, arbitrary, elitist, etc. I addressed your logic as such. Because it is an apt description of the logic you are using. It is like telling someone they did a stupid thing without calling them stupid, see? You are trying to take the moral highground as if I am using ad hominem attacks, when I never actually insulted you, simply said what I see when it comes to the logic you use. Oh and it wouldn't make much sense for you to try and take the moral high ground now when you have already insulted people in this thread, or dismissed them entirely as "warframe haters". People aren't exactly looking to make friends when their legitimate feedback and concerns are dismissed, they can almost get a bit acerbic... Funny that. Oh and the argumentum ad populum is normally a fallacy in a debate, I understand that, but we are debating balancing issues in a game, where the majority playerbase is supposed to be catered to. It is no longer a fallacy, it is actually pointing out an issue that 99% of the playerbase has greivance with. So please, do not try to frame my words through the lense of fallacy. Edit: I will point out that as a normally blunt person, being reminded I can be acerbic is a compliment. I don't often get to exercise that side of things. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 12 minutes ago, RivaAurelius said: Nowhere does it say to feed the helminth literal hours of your time for a single feed though. It does say feed the helminth, but not with your life. Rehashing the fact that they said feed it isn't gonna make it any more reasonable. Also notice, I did not call YOU, arbitrary, elitist, etc. I addressed your logic as such. Because it is an apt description of the logic you are using. It is like telling someone they did a stupid thing without calling them stupid, see? You are trying to take the moral highground as if I am using ad hominem attacks, when I never actually insulted you, simply said what I see when it comes to the logic you use. Oh and it wouldn't make much sense for you to try and take the moral high ground now when you have already insulted people in this thread, or dismissed them entirely as "warframe haters". People aren't exactly looking to make friends when their legitimate feedback and concerns are dismissed, they can almost get a bit acerbic... Funny that. Oh and the argumentum ad populum is normally a fallacy in a debate, I understand that, but we are debating balancing issues in a game, where the majority playerbase is supposed to be catered to. It is no longer a fallacy, it is actually pointing out an issue that 99% of the playerbase has greivance with. So please, do not try to frame my words through the lense of fallacy. I appreciate your effort, and I hate to say this; but this guy has no realization of how elitist his logic can be. He also takes things that aren't insulting as insults. He's done it before with myself. I'd leave it be. 💚 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said: I appreciate your effort, and I hate to say this; but this guy has no realization of how elitist his logic can be. He also takes things that aren't insulting as insults. He's done it before with myself. I'd leave it be. 💚 Thank you for the commendation. I try my best to argue in good faith, even though I haven't exactly had the best experience with doing so on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 6 hours ago, Endorphinz said: Like, if 99 people think the helminth costs should be lowered and 1 person thinks they're fine, then the reasonable course is probably to lower the cost, right? if 99 people want to burn the witch and 1 person thinks just let the lady go, then the reasonable course is probably to burn the witch right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: if 99 people want to burn the witch and 1 person thinks just let the lady go, then the reasonable course is probably to burn the witch right? This is hardly a witch hunt. Please stop being disengenuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 On 2020-09-17 at 2:59 PM, RivaAurelius said: This is hardly a witch hunt. ... i didn't say *this* (whatever "this" may be) is a witch hunt, but applied the same framework ("if 99 people...") to another example to demonstrate the fallacy of the argumentum ad populum this is rather you being disingenuous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callback Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 5 hours ago, quxier said: It's more like "pick characteristic you like and cannot change it" thing. Only new customizable frames are truly customizable... with some limitations of course. It's because Helminth can change frame every time you want. You don't have to build new frame just to put new ability. I wish they went into changeable systems. Imagine that you can change part of your Zaw. And even better, in game. ps. it's still something Seriously. It was bad enough the first time when they added new meta grips long after people were done with PoE and you had to re-farm everything from scratch to use them. But under massive changes like melee and status 3.0? Huge shifts in the meta demand different components. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to build just the components we want and switch them out onto our already mastered, potatoed, formaed, etc. strikes/chambers/whatever the main mastery component is. A lot of what people made back then is unusable now. And there's no desire to go back through all that to fix it. So what was once a nice arsenal for variety now sits as antiquated MR fodder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 16 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said: i didn't say *this* (whatever "this" may be) is a witch hunt, but applied the same framework ("if 99 people...") to another example to demonstrate the fallacy of the argumentum ad populum this is rather you being disingenuous Appeasing the majoroty of players of a video game and making the choice between the life and death of a woman are two entirely different things. Also... if you, being one man, defended the witch, you'd be labeled a sympathizer and killed for it alongside her. If DE doesn't listen to the 99%, their game dies and you wouldn't like that I'd hope. Btw, when RivaAurelius said "This is hardly a witch hunt", he/she was saying that applying his/her logic to a witch hunt in order to disprove it is ridiculous. Funnily enough, the outcome would probably be the same: The one person would be ignored for the sake of the 99. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jitsuryoku Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Atm I only have 2 pieces of feedback: Helminth infusions makes experiments cost too much. More on this below... Review railjack resource value. I am estimating my railjack mission playtime at around 120 hours ( had about 300 in total when railjack released and I spent time there ) Fresnel require 1k and I am at 5k with all my playtime. It takes ~20hours of non-focused grind to feed Helminth once with a rare railjack resource. Whoever thinks those price is justified should be forced to farm 5k of each of those resources if they want to keep that price. So regarding experimenting... Most people don't know how abilities work on the inside and how they will work with other stuff in Warframe (I am one of those people), so there are realistically 2 ways to find out: - Spend 1-2hours grinding for resources to test each frame+skill combination (correct me if my estimate is wrong). By the way, I am talking about dedicated team kind of grinding - not 1-2 hours of casual gameplay. - Spend 30min-2hours doing math with resources on wiki, to figure out exactly how, say.... Xaku's whisper will work with Mesa's Peacemaker's. If your test happens to require a physical test (for example, testing if larva pulls petrified targets, which no amount of math can answer), then..... well it's your own fault for not being a time wizard and not rewinding time after you figure out 1 skill virtually cancels the other. In case you don't see a problem with that, this pushes people to wait for prepared builds rather than testing for themselves. I don't know how exactly, but there needs to be a way to test without wasting multiple hours on grind/calculations. Here are a few options: Free testing in Simulacrum. IMO, best option, because testing is free, but infusion still requires the same amount of work. Reduce infusion cost with Helminth rank (either gradually or once at the final rank) Reduce infusion cost based on percentage of subsumed frames. Somebody who subsumed all warframes gets priced reduced more than somebody who did 3. It's percentage based, so when a new frame comes out some of the reduction is lost until new frame is subsumed too. Introduce a permanent upgrade for helminth where you have to sink resources to permanently reduce the infusion price Maybe just MAYBE use dying content, to allow players to farm for reduced price as a permanent upgrade. For example, farm railjack, archwing and maybe even leeches to get stuff to permanently reduce prices. Idk, feed lich/railjack weapons or archwings to reduce the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Jitsuryoku said: If your test happens to require a physical test (for example, testing if larva pulls petrified targets, which no amount of math can answer), then..... well it's your own fault for not being a time wizard and not rewinding time after you figure out 1 skill virtually cancels the other. In case you don't see a problem with that, this pushes people to wait for prepared builds rather than testing for themselves. YES. Experimentation should feel fun, and it should feel like it's encouraged to experiment. The current costs don't reflect the idea that experimenting is the goal. DE just got overzealous with the RJ resources, bile, and cryotic: That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DroopingPuppy Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said: if 99 people want to burn the witch and 1 person thinks just let the lady go, then the reasonable course is probably to burn the witch right? If 99 people say it is too expensive but one person thinks it is fine to be, then most dealer will consider a discount. The dealer don't have to do. Perhaps the cost of goods is too expensive to have a discount. But if that many people says it is too expensive, then I don't think that it is out of nowhere. It is possible that 99s are actually incorrect, but if you say 99s are always wrong then it is you who is actually wrong. Remember, no smoke without fire. The public opinion is far from something absolutely perfect, and we all know blindly follows what the whinners says will results catastrophic failure. But even if they are nothing but the whinners, if there are so many whinners then it is likely that something was gone wrong actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said: i didn't say *this* (whatever "this" may be) is a witch hunt, but applied the same framework ("if 99 people...") to another example to demonstrate the fallacy of the argumentum ad populum this is rather you being disingenuous Erm except this is a video game. This is being sold to customers. If 99% of your customers don't like what you want to sell, you will lose 99% of your customers. This isn't even business 101, this is prerequisite knowledge for business 101. As I earlier pointed out (and as you seem to have avoided addressing), while the argumentum ad populum is normally a fallacy in debate, we are debating balancing issues for a video game, where the majority of players are to be catered to. So again, stop trying to frame mine and other's words through the lense of fallacy when it is clearly not. You are trying to frame this discussion through the lense of a witch hunt where the circumstances are entirely different and argumentum ad populum would actually be a fallacy, but you are comparing apples and oranges. Would you argue against democracy with the same analogy? Or are you pro democracy? If so, why are you selectively pro democracy? Once again, it is you who is being disingenuous by trying to compare business to witch burning. Not the same thing, not even in the same ball park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivaAurelius Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said: Btw, when RivaAurelius said "This is hardly a witch hunt", he/she was saying that applying his/her logic to a witch hunt in order to disprove it is ridiculous. Funnily enough, the outcome would probably be the same: The one person would be ignored for the sake of the 99. It's not even that, it is that the circumstances of a witch hunt are completely different to the circumstances surrounding business decisions. While they both hinge on popular opinion, there are different variables to be concidered in either situation. While I disagree with mob rule (which I shall point out, we are not the mob), when it comes to business, the decisions MUST be based on the feedback of your customers, and this means that the majority of the customer base should be listened to, not the minority. When dealing with issues of justice, the popular opinion should not even be part of the equation. Sadly in the case of which hunts, it was. And it was and is a fallacy to use the argument of the majority in matters of justice or of morality. But this is not justice, nor is it morality. This is business. It is not a fallacy to point to the majority opinion of a customer base, it is the BAROMETER that a business should follow. To compare this to the witch hunt is to be disingenuous, and to compare buttock with elbow. I am afraid there is a very big difference between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Sp00n Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Helminth Chrysalis empyrean resource requirements are way too high across all categories, considering we have no other reason to play an empyrean mission ever once we're done farming Sentient Anomalies. Bile category has big issues in terms of balancing and resource choices. Maybe add the Severed Bile Sac to its pool? Or reduce the Cryotics, Diluted Thermia and Argon Crystal costs? Or reduce the empyrean resources costs? Detonite Ampule and Fieldron Samples are both in the same category as so many other convenient resources. I know their categories make sense lore-wise, but other categories *cough* Bile *cough* really need some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriticalFumble Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Helminth's abilities seem steep (in energy cost) across the board. I think even so relative to comparable abilities. Marked For Death specifically - Given the 29.1.0 changes the cost to cast needs to be much lower and/or: Releases accumulated damage over [duration] starting from the first damage instance. Has a larger base range. Applies to the caster itself, rather than a target. I understand being a touch afraid of making this one too powerful, but I don't see how this one could ever compare to many of the things already in-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 On 2020-09-17 at 5:46 PM, RivaAurelius said: Erm except this is a video game. This is being sold to customers. If 99% of your customers don't like what you want to sell, you will lose 99% of your customers. ... we are debating balancing issues for a video game, where the majority of players are to be catered to. ... you speak of the company and the product as if was construction aggregate or rice i don't want to be catered to i want to be challenged, to be tested and to have something to sacrifice, and ultimately to grow and broaden my experience you stand for anodyne consumerism, and i stand for sticking true to your original artistic vision the more the company is catering to the group which you appear to represent ("the 99%" ... well, you seem unusually militant for someone who's supposedly holding a majority view; you look more like a holder of an extreme view to me) instead of challenging them, the more they are turning their wonderful product of culture into worthless pulp that is to be regurgitated once by a generation of gamers and forgotten i don't want to let that happen. i support the company for what they are trying to build here and you are hating on railjack, calling it dead content, threatening that your sect (the fabled 99%) will leave the game etc. typical silent majority attitude... oh wait. there is light and dark in the world. sometimes it comes in subtle shades, and sometimes it's clear what is what. this time it's clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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