Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[Borg1611]

24 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

So, did anyone ever actually run into the subsume limits?

I didn't. I'm currently at rank 7. I've only done a few infusions and subsume once a day. 

I'm glad the slots never really mattered since it would have been annoying, though it does seem that they only exist as an illusion to make it seem like the ranks have more meaning than they actually do. 

[quxier]

49 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I'm glad the slots never really mattered since it would have been annoying, though it does seem that they only exist as an illusion to make it seem like the ranks have more meaning than they actually do. 

The slots doesn't matter that much because abilities from frames are not very different and/or it's hard to farm a frame.

[CopperBezel]

Well, what we're saying is regardless of whether you're interested in collecting and have the time to do it or not, just subsuming frames ranks up the Helminth fast enough that you probably won't run into your caps. I recognize I'm in a small minority people who've already fed Khora, Grendel, and Harrow to the thing among twelve and counting.

[(PSN)jtreyes821]

Not sure if this was said earlier in the thread, I don't want to read 21 pages, but the cost of Railjack resources to feed the Helminth are a bit too high. Especially the rarer resources like Asterite, Brachoids and so on. Railjack has no replayability for me atm since I've maxed out my intrinsics and have good upgraded parts. There is really nothing to do RJ for other than nightwave. Same thing for Diluted Thermia, Hexanon, and Cryotic.

[Electropuncher]

Two weeks in, and I can safely say that this system is just not fun to interact with. Bile is such a bottleneck to the system, and the overall costs are just too high. While this system clearly started as a "here's a way to use that 3 million nano spores you're sitting on," the real implementation feels more like "hey, here's how you can rebalance the bad abilities on your Warframes." I'll admit, I probably flung 400 morphics into my worm's mouth on the first day just to rush things, not realizing that this is a slow burn system, but the price on Railjack resources are just plain ridiculous. On Switch, the only time you EVER get a Railjack group is either when it's in Nightwave rotation, which leads to people doing 3 missions on Posit Cluster (first mission on Earth), or quad XP weekends (usually a consolation for Switch development being delayed due to Nintendo's slow turnaround time) in the Veil. It is literally impossible to level up and replace parts the way things are now, and obviously a hell grind to actually get drops needed to feed Helminth. Honestly, I think Brozime's video on the subject from yesterday hit the nail on the head. Cut railjack resource costs across the board by 90%, make Diluted thermia's cost 1, make somatic fibers 1, and transfer a few of the absolutely crowded tiers items into bile. For example: move the bile sac into the bile category from pheromones because are you serious?

I'm sitting on four frames in my foundry because I just can't be hassled to actively farm bile. I'm effectively limited to Argon Crystals, Morphics, and Thermal Sludge, because I can't find anyone who even considers RJ fun, myself included. Somatic Fibers are far more valuable than 30% bile, and unlike everything else, the only time I've ever seen them is on an Axi relic farm, which I pretty much only do immediately after a Prime Access release. 

This system is just outright punishing to interact with. I almost wish it wasn't implemented, as I really feel like it's just going to be a bigger problem down the line, especially since it's going to make balancing frames even more of a nightmare. I don't play meta, I just play how I want to play, and I can usually get a couple hours of fun, sometimes a whole day out of the game if I'm particularly engrossed and have nothing to do. I was really excited about this, but the more I play it, the more it really feels like it was stapled on at the last minute. I freely admit I rushed it at first, but now it's just this ugly appendix in my orbiter that I'm just trying to ignore like a benign tumor. At least Mot and Fortuna are quick farms, but the fact I have to go out of my way to keep up with this when almost everything else is just something I'm going to passively get by playing what I want is making this feel like more of a chore than a reward.

And why doesn't he actually have lines? It's just garbled sounds that have subtitles that go by really unevenly and sounds really cheesy.

[Proscriptor]

13 hours ago, Rin-senpai said:

Vets have better amps than default, if u dont have better amp u r not vet (same level of "argumentation)

Some resources are unnecessary high-cap and it's true

i don't know about amps, but what is certain is that if you don't have a lot of cryotic, you haven't played a lot of excav.

excav is one of the common game modes, you play it all the time, be it fissure, arbitration, and other places.

how is it possible that a very experienced player hasn't played a lot of excav? only if they actively avoided it.

if you actively avoided one of the basic game modes, that rewards a certain resource, you can't really claim the costs in that resource should be adjusted for you. that makes no sense. 

[Althaline]

2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

i don't know about amps, but what is certain is that if you don't have a lot of cryotic, you haven't played a lot of excav.

excav is one of the common game modes, you play it all the time, be it fissure, arbitration, and other places.

how is it possible that a very experienced player hasn't played a lot of excav? only if they actively avoided it.

if you actively avoided one of the basic game modes, that rewards a certain resource, you can't really claim the costs in that resource should be adjusted for you. that makes no sense. 

Each excavator takes 100 seconds to complete mining and rewards 100 Cryotic when it does. (Source: Warframe Wiki)

Helminth eats 3000 Cryotic every time you feed it.

Under the assumption that you start each excavator the moment the previous one finishes, that is 3000 seconds per feeding. In other words, almost an hour of Excavation. Please stop baselessly asserting that this is ok, because it is definitely not.

Additionally, since when is Excavation a "common" game mode? What makes a game mode "common" anyway? Furthermore, why is it that the resources that only drop from specific game modes are the ones that are absurdly unbalanced for costs (Excavation, Railjack, Thermia, Somatic Fibers, etc.)?

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said:

how is it possible that a very experienced player hasn't played a lot of excav? only if they actively avoided it.

It's possible. Cryotic isn't necessary after you build something and if you don't want certain relics from Excav nodes then there are no reasons to go there.

[Proscriptor]

56 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Under the assumption that you start each excavator the moment the previous one finishes, that is 3000 seconds per feeding. In other words, almost an hour of Excavation. Please stop baselessly asserting that this is ok, because it is definitely not.

it's ok for reasons i outlined above.

46 minutes ago, quxier said:

It's possible. Cryotic isn't necessary after you build something and if you don't want certain relics from Excav nodes then there are no reasons to go there.

fissure, arbitration, orb vallis excav

[RivaAurelius]

3 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Each excavator takes 100 seconds to complete mining and rewards 100 Cryotic when it does. (Source: Warframe Wiki)

Helminth eats 3000 Cryotic every time you feed it.

Under the assumption that you start each excavator the moment the previous one finishes, that is 3000 seconds per feeding. In other words, almost an hour of Excavation. Please stop baselessly asserting that this is ok, because it is definitely not.

Additionally, since when is Excavation a "common" game mode? What makes a game mode "common" anyway? Furthermore, why is it that the resources that only drop from specific game modes are the ones that are absurdly unbalanced for costs (Excavation, Railjack, Thermia, Somatic Fibers, etc.)?

An hour of game time to get enough resources for ONE feed is definitely not ok, anyone saying otherwise is making baseless, silly assertions. Furthermore, excavation is basically a dead gamemode. It used to be great for endo and relic farming, but other gamemodes like arbitrations came along and replaced excavations for that sort of thing. Excavation is something rarely played. Even if there are fissure missions available for excavation, people generally prefer survival or defense for endless gamemodes, and capture for fast relic farming. Excavation is pretty much dead. 

 

Edit: Once you max out fortuna, as I and many other vets have done ages ago, there is no reason to play fortuna bounties, and no reason to do vallis excavation. I am currently playtesting right now to even see if cryotic is a guaranteed drop for the vallis excavation, as I can't remember whether or not it is.

Edit 2: Excavation on vallis DOES NOT give a guaranteed cryotic drop. To put it into some perspective, this is the first time I have gone to the vallis since maxing it out, which was over a year ago. Just like railjack, cetus and orb vallis become dead content islands when you max them out. There is no longer a reason to play them. The idea that there are varied versions of excavation is not an excuse for the fact that it takes almost an hour of farming for a single cryotic feed for Helminth. These costs need to be adjusted. 

Edit 3: "aRbItRaTiOn ExCaVaTiOn iS A tHiNg!" Yeh and the time for each excavator goes up to 180 seconds from 100 seconds. If you were to farm 30 excavators, each taking 180 seconds, it would take you one hour and thirty minutes to farm enough cryotic for a single Helminth feed. It's time to stop making excuses and just admit that the resource costs are scaled terribly and require adjustments. 

[_Tormex_]

I have really enjoyed using the Helminth system so far, but there is one thing that I would like to change. Right now, many of the new helminth abilities are good, but not good enough to replace abilities that are already on warframes that work well, and not good enough to outweigh other abilities that the helminth system provides.

Could you make it so that the helminth abilities (and maybe even other weaker abilities) don't count against the '1 subsumed ability per frame' count? Also, it would be fun to make certain frames have more subsumed abilities.

[Traumtulpe]

First I'd like to say that I am satisfied with the system in general, and have no problems with the resource costs at all. Though adding another easy to obtain resource to the Bile category might be a good idea.

Second, on nerfed abilities in the Helminth system - this is just a massive disappointment. And completely unnecessary too. You really expect us to put in that much effort, for a S#&$ty version (nerfed by 50% in some cases) of an ability that obviously isn't too good in the first place (since it is still available at 100% efficiency on its original Warframe). Unsightly, unfun, unjustified.

Third, Helminth's original abilities:

• Rebuild Shields. Bad, 2/10
• Perspicacity. Niche, but useful. 5/10
• Energized Munitions. Good, cast time is unpleasant. 8/10
• Marked for Death. Fun, not as effective as people think. 7/10
• Expedite Suffering. Very bad. 0/10
• Empower. Fine, cast time is unpleasant. 6/10
• Infested Mobility. Not interested. 4/10
• Masters Summon. Bad. Needs to resurrect Sentinels. 2/10

[(PSN)Git_Gud_Mr_Shrek]

A good fix would be making subsuming frames cost no resources

[Proscriptor]

that would be a terrible "fix" for a problem that doesn't exist

[RivaAurelius]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Git_Gud_Mr_Shrek said:

A good fix would be making subsuming frames cost no resources

True, why do you need to feed Helminth in order to feed Helminth? Doesn't really make sense. Another great FIX would be rebalancing the resource costs to a point where you don't have to sacrifice an hour to an hour and a half of your life for a single feed for some resources. 

[CopperBezel]

If we actually had to farm the rubedo or alloy plate for a feeding, it'd take a substantial amount of time as well, longer than argon crystals or thermal sludge. The railjack resources (with one or two exceptions like gallos rods) do come in quantities that seem unreasonable even by that metric, but with the exception of fresnels, they seem consistent with a general trend of requiring a few times the quantity of a given resource that a typical foundry (or replication or repair) recipe requires. I didn't have a large store of cryotic lying around, largely because it tends to be required in large quantities for most recipes (with the exception of mining ones), but I also had quite a lot of thermal sludge. Right now, my Helminth is sick of argon crystals and bile has become the one thing that's knocked me off the schedule of subsuming another frame every 24 hours when I have the option.

Bile isn't required for every infusion and every subsumption, but it is required for most, and that can't be an accident, because it comes up much more than it would by chance. So I think it has to be working as intended as a difficult resource to maintain.

So basically, I don't know whether it is or isn't reasonable, but it definitely is the place where the Helminth is more likely than not to require some serious farming investment, and I'm now leaning toward thinking that's the design intent. 

It's frustrating, but I'm not sure that it's more frustrating than a lot of other Warframe grind is. I've spent more time farming focus in Onslaught than I think the Helminth system is capable of consuming, and I already have all of the upgrades I really wanted for particular frames and have moved into messing with options and experimenting. 

[Tomppak]

Currently, you can have *different* powers in *different* slots for different configs, BUT - you can not have the *same power* in *different slots* for different configs. I would very much like to replace Will-o-wisp with ROAR on one config and have it replace Sol Gate on another. Likewise it would be nice to have Resonator replace Terrify on one config and Soul Punch on another.

Could we get the option to infuse the same ability multiple times on the same warframe without first removing it, to allow the infused ability replace different powers in different configs?

[lawgnome]

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

If we actually had to farm the rubedo or alloy plate for a feeding, it'd take a substantial amount of time as well, longer than argon crystals or thermal sludge. The railjack resources (with one or two exceptions like gallos rods) do come in quantities that seem unreasonable even by that metric, but with the exception of fresnels, they seem consistent with a general trend of requiring a few times the quantity of a given resource that a typical foundry (or replication or repair) recipe requires. I didn't have a large store of cryotic lying around, largely because it tends to be required in large quantities for most recipes (with the exception of mining ones), but I also had quite a lot of thermal sludge. Right now, my Helminth is sick of argon crystals and bile has become the one thing that's knocked me off the schedule of subsuming another frame every 24 hours when I have the option.

Bile isn't required for every infusion and every subsumption, but it is required for most, and that can't be an accident, because it comes up much more than it would by chance. So I think it has to be working as intended as a difficult resource to maintain.

So basically, I don't know whether it is or isn't reasonable, but it definitely is the place where the Helminth is more likely than not to require some serious farming investment, and I'm now leaning toward thinking that's the design intent. 

It's frustrating, but I'm not sure that it's more frustrating than a lot of other Warframe grind is. I've spent more time farming focus in Onslaught than I think the Helminth system is capable of consuming, and I already have all of the upgrades I really wanted for particular frames and have moved into messing with options and experimenting. 

The difference, and the reason people think that bile is unreasonable and frustrating, is that bile is used for a lot of helminth actions, and there are only 3 reasonable feeding sources - Argon, Morphics, and Thermal Sludge.

Everything else is so much rarer or limiting, so you end up waiting for an extended period of time for the arrows to fill up on those few resources. 

Oxides has 8 possible foodstuffs, but only 2 of them are railjack (and thus super unreasonable), leaving 6 that you can switch between during different feedings.

Calx has 9 possible foodstuffs, and while 4 of them are railjack (and thus super unreasonable), the remaining 5 are both reasonable and lucent teroglobes give a bonus amount per feeding.

Biotics has 18 possible foodstuffs, and all but the sun/moon stuff are reasonable due to the timing of when you can farm them.

Synthetics has 10 possible foodstuffs, and only 3 of them are railjack.

Pheromones has 11 possible foodstuffs, and only 3 are railjack

Bile has 9 possible foodstuffs, 3 are reasonable, 3 are railjack, 1 is tied to one specific game mode, 1 is tied to one specific game mode on one specific node, and 1 is tied to an event.  

 

You have to wait to refill bile, but everything else you can have 1.5 to 2 full feedings with green arrow resources.  Honestly, if they were to move 2 non-railjack resources to bile (or just fix the railjack numbers), that would be more than sufficient to solve everyone's problem.  It still would be the resource sink it was always meant to be, but it wouldn't be an irritating resource sink anymore.

[Proscriptor]

at least cryotic is also reasonable in bile

of the less cost efficient bile fodders, isos are pretty decent

[CopperBezel]

2 hours ago, lawgnome said:

The difference, and the reason people think that bile is unreasonable and frustrating, is that bile is used for a lot of helminth actions, and there are only 3 reasonable feeding sources - Argon, Morphics, and Thermal Sludge.

Oh, believe me, I'm well aware. Like I said, it's been as much a thorn in my side as anyone, and at this point I don't think it's unintended. As I sorta said in my other post, I'm well past comparing bile to other secretions, I'm comparing it at best to the farms for focus and arcanes. If Sentient Appetite had put intact sentient cores in the bile category and done nothing else, it would have been Christmas.

[Proscriptor]

18 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

And why doesn't he actually have lines? It's just garbled sounds that have subtitles that go by really unevenly and sounds really cheesy.

he communicates with your warframe telepathically

[(PSN)Grim_Dude]

Energized Munitions is pretty fun to use, but the duration feels kinda too short to fully enjoy.

I probably use a Duration Increase to at least 10 seconds, alternatively making it a channeling ability would be entertaining as well.

[(PSN)camwyn-xenos]

Helminth feeding if feed at 1 frame per day and 1 feed of resources per day works fine, a 30% return on resource feed is not a problem Feed only green. Yes you can feed more but you waste resources at 3% returns. There are a few thing some players Don't like doing and that is farming, Brozime is a prime example of a player who only speedruns and doesn't farm his video clear showed his lack of farming by the amounts he had. Plants are easy to farm lua pitchers aren't rare running the new Mod BOTANIST silver grove bio's very easy to farm. I do think some items need to move around as a choice of only 9 items is to low where as others are well populated, and a few railjack resource are over priced compared to farming quantity carbides i have over 100k but Iso 16k only 2000 fresnels and coppernic only 16k, mainly because i completed clan research and rng has not been good at giving coppernic since, just carbides and titanium (100k worth).  since DE revised railjack most resource there are easy and quick to farm, the battles only last a few minutes and then your free to farm the resources that a frequently floating there in the asteroid and debris fields the point is there NOT rare if you go get them. Saying something is to costly just because you do not wish to intergrate with that part of the game isn't fair to those that do. DE in this tennos mind made a bad move allowing players to rush subsume because it then puts feeding cooldown out of sync causing a problem with feeding. DE 90% of Helminth feed resources are right, so stick to the original idea of Helminth slowl feeding, we Don't need everything yesterday from it, so no need to rush, its a reason to logon and do something even if its just to feed it a frame.

[LuckyCharm]

You see the issue with slow feed/heavy time sink resource hungry systems like the helminth currently is is that they dont incentivise experimentation. On top of that they feel very cash grabby since they really feel like you need boosters just to get that last little bit you need. And then just that next bit isnt far off so you'll want a booster for that too. ..

But really the biggest issue with it is we've had such little to do this past year that finally when it comes to a system that looks fun originally it turned out to be a huge grind, on top of already re-grinding out the 40ish frames. That isnt fun. Its not really something extra to play round with now. Its just a grind to get done and then min/max so you dont waste all your resources you spent years getting

[TurboWonka]

Only have an issue with Bile type, there is not so much types to donate and not easy to farm.