Mesa's Peacemakers (4) - Extremely effective DPS, but fundamentally flawed and not fun

[Proscriptor]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)MarissaGNWalker said:

. Of all the frames and you pick that desperately need work, you pick Mesa???  FOR HER REGULATORS? Are you crazy?? 

they aren't crazy, they hate mesa because she kills everything around them in missions and it makes them feel inferior. then they go to open an... unearnest... thread about making mesa "more fun" but actually with a goal to lay out ideas for how to make a mesa a weak and useless frame. just a poorly covered up "i hate mesa" thread. 

edit: on the internet this phenomenon is called concern trolling

[DeLawrence]

3 hours ago, (PS4)MarissaGNWalker said:

....you know anemic agility exists, right? Increased fire rate at cost of damage, which outside of steel path, still kills everything just fine. It’s actually on Brozime’s build, too. 
Do not fck with Mesa. It seems everything DE touches lately is ruined. A rework for her is a BAD IDEA, and not just because I wouldn’t trust DE to do it right. Of all the frames and you pick that desperately need work, you pick Mesa???  FOR HER REGULATORS? Are you crazy?? I mean I’m sorry because I know you’re entitled to your opinion but...really?! No mention of her 1 ability and how it is unneeded/sucks? I am flabbergasted that someone actually went out of their way to whine about MESA. If you don’t like her, don’t play her. There are other dps frames, Khora is one of my favorites. If they “aren’t as good” as Mesa then that shows that Mesa is in a pretty good place. I LOVE that she’s an auto aim bot. I can really suck at aiming sometimes, which obviously isn’t everyone else’s fault, but it is dam nice to have on occasion/as needed. 

If that's all you got from my post then it is clear where the WF community is at now. It seems you're unable to separate opinion from urge. 

Where in my OP did you see any of these words "desperately" "rework now" "nerf it" or "hate because she kills everything around"?

The only thing remotely close to that was me asking if someone else feels like she needs a design change, SUBJECTIVELY.

I wanted to make the post more condensed, hence why i made the context a "spoiler" tab. 

Freakin' read it to get...you know...context.

There was never a sliver of "OMG PLZ nerf this OP trash bcz she killz the rooms and I can't pew pew swing swing my sword DEEEEEE AAAAA" in my idea of creating this thread, never has never will.

I also never said DE should do it now, or ever, it was just an opinion and invitation to a discussion, to see if other players feel the same about Mesa. 

Some of you clearly can't even comprehend basic argument exposition which is why I tried to steer as clear as possible of numbers and specifics, because I knew that what I was presenting was an idea and an opinion, not some specific plan that has been thought through and through( numbers, effects, interactions etc.)
You keep throwing x y z scenarios at me like I had just presented a 14 page deep dive on her ability...like..Christ. OFC I am aware some things I said may not be feasable, I can't know exactly though since I don't have a WF dev build on me to test and see. That's why it's an IDEA.

3 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

they aren't crazy, they hate mesa because she kills everything around them in missions and it makes them feel inferior. then they go to open an... unearnest... thread about making mesa "more fun" but actually with a goal to lay out ideas for how to make a mesa a weak and useless frame. just a poorly covered up "i hate mesa" thread. 

edit: on the internet this phenomenon is called concern trolling

Some of you claim that this is a "disguised Mesa hater" thread...exactly what I was going for there mate...you got me, and here I though I might get away with it. /s

 

Anyway, I honestly got the jist of it. There are people that like the idea, for good reason, there are people that don't, for good reason as well, different opinions but presented in a civil way, kudos to those people(they know who they are). 
 

[Proscriptor]

  

22 minutes ago, DeLawrence said:

Some of you claim that this is a "disguised Mesa hater" thread...exactly what I was going for there mate...you got me, and here I though I might get away with it. /s

you can't hide behind feigned sarcasm, by now everyone has figured out what's going on with your absurd proposal

[DeLawrence]

1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said:

  

you can't hide behind feigned sarcasm, by now everyone has figured out what's going on with your absurd proposal

And by now everyone has figured out that you are nothing but a troll and add basically nothing to the discussion, cheers.

[Buttaface]

Didn't read thread, just OP. Agree with idea in OP, Peacemaker is one of the worst abilities in the game and breeds bad players similar to Spores, Maim, Cataclysm and a few other AOE cheeze abilities that should have never been in WF. Over the years, when I ever hear "I'm a Mesa Main now!" that player disappears of boredom and the inability to actually learn to play the game well instead of crutch on cheeze.

[selig_fay]

6 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Didn't read thread, just OP. Agree with idea in OP, Peacemaker is one of the worst abilities in the game and breeds bad players similar to Spores, Maim, Cataclysm and a few other AOE cheeze abilities that should have never been in WF. Over the years, when I ever hear "I'm a Mesa Main now!" that player disappears of boredom and the inability to actually learn to play the game well instead of crutch on cheeze.

No, it's not. The main complaint is that other team members don't have tasks. Killing trash enemies is the main task of Mesa, just like Vauban control trash enemies. Another point is that DE could add big boys who are invulnerable to CC and nuck abilities and here ops, you need a tank to distract it with aggression, you need weapon damage to kill it. Now imagine that big boys are not uncommon and appear on a regular basis. Thus, Mesa is left with its task of cleaning up trash mobs, while the team begins to have another task. Also, there are still unique enemies in the game, they just need to get smarter. I'm very confident that commander can make a mesa out if position, causing a lot of rage. The ancient healer already makes saryn less effective, and the nullifier is designed to ignore all abilities except exalted weapons. (and lol, the only exception is peacemakers). There may be more, more and more and at one point you may find that peacemakers are no longer what people like to do. This doesn't work in all situations, which means it's no longer the most desirable thing. But it still desirable thing for the team. 

On the other hand, people complain about Nuck frames, but I hardly see them, unlike Wukong in almost every mission.

[Buttaface]

8 hours ago, selig_fay said:

No, it's not.

Yes it is. Stopped reading there.

[Xepthrichros]

17 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Didn't read thread, just OP. Agree with idea in OP, Peacemaker is one of the worst abilities in the game and breeds bad players similar to Spores, Maim, Cataclysm and a few other AOE cheeze abilities that should have never been in WF. Over the years, when I ever hear "I'm a Mesa Main now!" that player disappears of boredom and the inability to actually learn to play the game well instead of crutch on cheeze.

Look at this. Another one of those people putting on an elitist attitude in a chill game. Literally dictating to others what is considered to be "bad" play.

Almost as egregious as that pizza delivery guy who elsewhere in this topic simultaneously manages to accuse others of being elitist ("pretend they are better" his words) for doing steel path, and then proceeds to immediately to support a nerf/rework on the basis that he thinks such a nerf will bring about an outcome more aligned to his playstyle, his so-called "require effort to use" idea, which is just really himself pretending he is better. 

 

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

Yes it is. Stopped reading there.

Oh. I'm so sad that you didn't read it. 

[Buttaface]

2 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Look at this. Another one of those people putting on an elitist attitude in a chill game. Literally dictating to others what is considered to be "bad" play.

Almost as egregious as that pizza delivery guy who elsewhere in this topic simultaneously manages to accuse others of being elitist ("pretend they are better" his words) for doing steel path, and then proceeds to immediately to support a nerf/rework on the basis that he thinks such a nerf will bring about an outcome more aligned to his playstyle, his so-called "require effort to use" idea, which is just really himself pretending he is better. 

 

Oh is it a "chill" game? Is that why people who can't manage to work the complexity of Saryn cheeze (or a select few other candidates) crutch on an aimbot instead? Good to know. Aimbots are banned in better games for several reasons, and one reason is teaching the players to learn the game and not be bad. WF didn't and hasn't ever learned that lesson, which is one reason its numbers are mediocre in an easy niche it should dominate utterly.

It has nothing to do with a "preferred playstyle," Straw King, but with the objective fact that the overwhelming majority of the player base is flat out bad due to crutching, leeching, being carried, etc., and this makes pugging above Hydron mostly miserable, since COVID even worse. It doesn't have to be this way, there is plenty of middle ground between fun abilities in a game of this type and cheeze that creates a terribad and eventually bored player base.

 

[Pizzarugi]

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Look at this. Another one of those people putting on an elitist attitude in a chill game. Literally dictating to others what is considered to be "bad" play.

Almost as egregious as that pizza delivery guy who elsewhere in this topic simultaneously manages to accuse others of being elitist ("pretend they are better" his words) for doing steel path, and then proceeds to immediately to support a nerf/rework on the basis that he thinks such a nerf will bring about an outcome more aligned to his playstyle, his so-called "require effort to use" idea, which is just really himself pretending he is better. 

 

Nice strawman.

Nowhere did I suggest people play according to how I want them to do. Never has been. It's always a projection on the part of people like you when people like me suggest we nerf broken nukes. I'm not the one telling people who have a problem that their opinions don't matter if they're not playing Steel Path. Sorry, but that is pretty elitist, especially since it's a hardmode that only exists to be a hardmode with most of the rest of the game cut out just to appeal to people who want meat walls for enemies. DE has said that they don't intend for this to be an endgame, so why should players be forced to engage in it to avoid press-4-to-win cheese?

My reasoning is, and always has been, because the game is a horde shooter and nuke frames render the "horde" aspect of the game nonexistent for everyone else in the team. If anyone is selfish, it's the people running nuke frames, everyone else has to be content with idling around with nothing to do. Walk from start to extraction during Exterminate while Saryn blows up everything in sight. Babysit the Mobile Defense targets while Mesa mows down everything in the room. Wander around in Survival to loot resources and life support while Volt mashes 4. How is that fun for them?

What's the point of playing a support like Trinity when you don't need to heal anyone, because Mesa 1shots everything? Why play Rhino, when Saryn kills everything that would give you a reason to tank? Why build a 250%+ range Vauban for crazy Vortex CC when the greatest CC is death brought on by Equinox's Maim? The reason people look at Nyx and say she's a terrible frame these days is because she offers nothing that an AoE DPS frame can't do better. If nuke frames can't decimate the game, you can bet you'd see more Nyx players rolling Chaos to keep enemies off of you and the objective while running Assimilate to protect themselves.

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Yes it is. Stopped reading there.

Selig's got a point.

The game's mostly full of trash enemies and there's no particular "VIP" enemies that stand out which are resistant/immune to powers and need to be taken down in very specific ways. No enemies that deal massive single target damage which validate tank frames. No elites that deal strong AoE to require healers. No sturdy enemy swarms that need CC to lock them down.

If DE's not going to nerf nuke frames, they need to add more enemies that validate the existence of everyone else who aren't running DPS.

[Proscriptor]

On 2020-09-10 at 1:44 AM, DeLawrence said:

And by now everyone has figured out that you are nothing but a troll and add basically nothing to the discussion, cheers.

there is no discussion here, it's all venting of frustration about mesa on one side and confused posts of good-willed people on the other side who are trying to figure out what's going on

  

On 2020-09-13 at 2:07 AM, Buttaface said:

Didn't read thread, just OP. Agree with idea in OP, Peacemaker is one of the worst abilities in the game and breeds bad players similar to Spores, Maim, Cataclysm and a few other AOE cheeze abilities that should have never been in WF. Over the years, when I ever hear "I'm a Mesa Main now!" that player disappears of boredom and the inability to actually learn to play the game well instead of crutch on cheeze.

for example, this topic is about calling some players bad

i imagine you are a good player then buttaface, at least you can conceive of yourself that way

  

On 2020-09-13 at 7:22 PM, Xepthrichros said:

Look at this. Another one of those people putting on an elitist attitude in a chill game. Literally dictating to others what is considered to be "bad" play.

Almost as egregious as that pizza delivery guy who elsewhere in this topic simultaneously manages to accuse others of being elitist ("pretend they are better" his words) for doing steel path, and then proceeds to immediately to support a nerf/rework on the basis that he thinks such a nerf will bring about an outcome more aligned to his playstyle, his so-called "require effort to use" idea, which is just really himself pretending he is better. 

 

he doesn't want mesa to be aligned to his playstyle, he just wants mesa to be ruined for these "bad players"

it's not like he intends to play mesa himself after such an absurd rework

[DeLawrence]

2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

there is no discussion here, it's all venting of frustration about mesa on one side and confused posts of good-willed people on the other side who are trying to figure out what's going on

Yes there is a discussion, between people who agree with my idea and people who disagree with it, pros and cons presented in a civil way, valid points on both sides.
There are also 2 or 3 people (yourself included) who just want to spark a troll train because...I don't know...they're trolls, that's what they do.

 

2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

for example, this topic is about calling some players bad

i imagine you are a good player then buttaface, at least you can conceive of yourself that way

Non a single one of my posts ever took a jab at people saying that they're bad or what not. Wether I agree with this or not was not the point of my OP.

The TOPIC is about Mesa's Peacemakers. Some people make THE POINT that one of the side effects of easy/cheese tactics, like Mesa's Aimbot can make a player "bad" by never challenging him to improve his aim/movement/arsenal. 

TOPIC and POINT OF VIEW are two very different things..

2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

he doesn't want mesa to be aligned to his playstyle, he just wants mesa to be ruined for these "bad players"

it's not like he intends to play mesa himself after such an absurd rework

He's probably not playing her now because he finds her boring, but a different less boring version might pique his interest. It's his opinion though, same as yours about my rework being absurd. I fully respect it, but I disagree with it.

 

[Buttaface]

On 2020-09-14 at 12:39 AM, DeLawrence said:

He's probably not playing her now because he finds her boring, but a different less boring version might pique his interest. It's his opinion though, same as yours about my rework being absurd. I fully respect it, but I disagree with it.

Wouldn't play Mesa without the aimbot either. It brings little to a team compared to alternatives, other than killing trash easily, trash that would have been dead in seconds anyway. I have never expected WF to be some kind of elite Esport game, but what I do expect is that game developers lay out a path of progression that creates some baseline level of skill in a game. WF does not and never has done that, and that's a crucial flaw IMO. Instead, it gets players in the door very early, encourages them to crutch, leech and get carried, and then offers them cheese to do middling content. It creates boredom and an obnoxious pugging environment. Better games do not do that.

It's my opinion that having aimbots and lots of AOE cheeze in games, not just this one, breeds a poorer player base generally. Peacemaker is a great example of that and there are many.

[selig_fay]

11 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Aimbots are banned in better games for several reasons, and one reason is teaching the players to learn the game and not be bad.

From looter shooters, this is only remnant. And then, I don't know, maybe it is there too. All other looter shooters have it, just with limitations. And wow, this is the main energy issue in the warframe.

But do you know what exactly is not in these games? So much mobility to safely ignore mobs. Arguments can be played in different ways. I can also point to the tanks that cannot die. And of course we have a powerful AOE weapon with endless ammo. Or let's look at invisibility, which is also a cheat.

You know, it's easier to create Warframe 2. For example, I would have preferred the stamina to exist, and Loki had invisibility, like a passive crouch, which will waste stamina, and the swith teleport could become a means of mobility for the same stamina. And then we could have decoy as an ability with cd and disarming as an ultimate. It would be a completely different game. Also, I would completely remove the mod system, and introduce a system of modules that work as augments simply by providing new properties, rather than working for greater efficiency. Let's say you add a grenade launcher to your barrel, but you lose accuracy. Or, you can move faster while invisible, but spend more stamina. And let the survivability customize separately with additional properties like a module that makes you less survivable, but allows you to charge the shields of allies around you. And each frame could have a selection of universal grenades, but Protea and Vauban would have more options. I think this could all be much more fun.

But these are all dreams. The reality is that either you are setting up your favorite frame to be the OP, or you are suffering because your frame cannot fight as effectively as others. I finally got everything to make my minigun Titania better so that she can compete with Mesa. Yes, it's easier for peacekeepers, but I have more mobility and flexibility because I don't depend on map generation like Mesa does, because autoaim doesn't work through walls. But all this is insignificant, because you can take Inaros with mecha mods and be immortal 30 meters nuck.

[shootaman777]

On 2020-09-07 at 6:25 PM, DeLawrence said:

<snipping the OP>

In the words of Bill Lumbergh:

".... oooooooohhh.... yeahhhhh........ ummmmmm....... I'm gonna have to go ahead and sort of... disagree with you there.... yeah..."
 

THE PROBLEM:

You say that you don't like Mesa because you find her to be boring. Alright, that's fine, and you're entitled to your opinion.

We can all acknowledge that she is a powerful Warframe with good survivability. You just don't like her flavour of power and survivability. Which, again, is fine, and you're entitled to your opinion.

The part of your idea that people are having problems with, is where you suggest turning Mesa into a garbage Warframe in comparison to what she would have been before your rework idea was implemented.
-'High damage, but slow' sounds good on paper, until you realise that a single-target 'high damage, but slow' is worthless in a horde shooter.
- -Take the Arquebex (another 'unlimited clip' Exalted weapon), for example. It has high fire rate, 'high damage', and an AoE, making it good for clearing hordes of enemies.
- - -Take out exclusively the AoE and it is still a useful 'high damage' machine gun that slaughters hordes quickly.
- - -Take out exclusively the 'high damage' and it is still a useful AoE machine gun that slaughters hordes (albeit with a sooner falloff point) quickly.
- - -Take out BOTH the AoE and 'high damage' and it is still a machine gun that can slaughter hordes (with an even sooner falloff point) quickly.
- - -But, take out the fire rate? Now the Arquebex is a mediocre weapon for the horde shooter game, due to mediocre AoE range that cannot be spammed.
- - -Take out both the fire rate and AoE? Now the Arquebex runs into the same problem as sniper rifles - it is only useful against 'big bosses'; outclassed everywhere else.
This is what you are suggesting to do to the Regulators - make them into a sidegrade to sniper rifles.

I don't care what thematic justifications you use, when you are attempting to justify turning a functionally stellar Warframe into a pile of garbage that few players would ever use. We all know what happened to Ash, who went down a similar road.

We don't need to make Mesa into an objectively garbage Warframe who does LESS than Ash or even Trinity, so that only you and the few people who enjoy your rework idea will ever play her.

What we need to do (which everyone can agree on), is to make Mesa's first ability into a halfway decent ability, for starters. It helps that players may subsume a useful ability into Mesa's first ability slot, but that does not excuse Mesa from needing a useful first ability by default.

 

THE SOLUTION:
Here's where we may begin to find some common ground - use a rework of Mesa's first ability to implement your rework idea, without removing the current functionality of Mesa.
Here's an example:
-Make Mesa's first ability a gunslinging stance change, similar to Equinox's first ability.
-Have this stance change slightly modify the second and third ability in some way that you desire (and maybe even have it affect normal weapons, such as making all guns able to Pandero in OG stance - to have their entire magazine fanned with above-normal fire rate, losing the functionality of ADS in the process. Alternatively, normal weapons could be fired in a 'focus mode' in your alternative stance, where damage, crit, and punch through are amplified at the cost of fire rate).
-Have the new stance from the first ability affect Mesa's Peacemaker in your desired fasion.

Now, instead of p1ssing people off becuse you're suggesting that DE take their toy away, you're suggesting that DE augment players' already existing toy as well as giving everyone something new to play with (that 'something' new being the rework idea that you're truly aiming for, all along).

This way, people will love your idea due to only 'getting something extra for what they were already using' from the idea, and if all goes well, you would get your 'ideal' Mesa implemented into the game and be able to ignore the current one.

This way, everyone walks away happy, as opposed to the discord that you've created due to the fear you've created that 'if people don't challenge your downgrade of a 'rework', DE may see the lack of negative feedback as general consent to the idea'.

Instead of creating an 'us' and 'them' ('people who prefer the current Mesa' and 'people who prefer your 'reworked' Mesa'), use universally agreed upon sentiments to create something that everyone can agree with. That way, you can spend more time developing your idea, instead of being forced to defend it from almost universal criticism.

Have a nice day! :)

[DeLawrence]

16 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

The part of your idea that people are having problems with, is where you suggest turning Mesa into a garbage Warframe in comparison to what she would have been before your rework idea was implemented.
-'High damage, but slow' sounds good on paper, until you realise that a single-target 'high damage, but slow' is worthless in a horde shooter.

Finally, reason, thanks mate!

And yes, I did realise the simple "turn into high shot single target damage" would be a problem for hordes, which is why I also thought of adding punch through, high amounts of it(talking 30-50 hell, even 100m, this would need testing obviously) so that it makes hallway shots be like 1 round 10 kills if they're lined up etc.

I also really like your idea of enhancing what already exists, haven't really thought of it, mainly because I just wanted to spark a discussion from a simple point, not going into specifics. 

Kudos though, really nicely put.

[selig_fay]

5 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

Finally, reason, thanks mate!

And yes, I did realise the simple "turn into high shot single target damage" would be a problem for hordes, which is why I also thought of adding punch through, high amounts of it(talking 30-50 hell, even 100m, this would need testing obviously) so that it makes hallway shots be like 1 round 10 kills if they're lined up etc.

I also really like your idea of enhancing what already exists, haven't really thought of it, mainly because I just wanted to spark a discussion from a simple point, not going into specifics. 

Kudos though, really nicely put.

In my opinion, zenith makes it clear that this is not a good idea. On the other hand, ricochets are what would make it look like kuva nuckor. The small AOE throughout the shot is Opticor. And these are all normal weapons. So we go back to where we started. Why are you trying to change the peacekeepers if you can just use normal weapons?

And I will say right away that this is a bonus topic for me, because I am in favor of removing exalted weapons and using exalted effects on normal weapons. And my argument is that exalted weapons limit the player's choice. You do the opposite thing, which is to remove the exalted effect and leave the exalted weapon. And that's what you get back. It has no potential gameplay improvement and people think you are just nerfing it for no reason. Moreover, the game already allows you to do what you want.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

On 2020-09-14 at 12:31 AM, shootaman777 said:

In the words of Bill Lumbergh:

".... oooooooohhh.... yeahhhhh........ ummmmmm....... I'm gonna have to go ahead and sort of... disagree with you there.... yeah..."
 

THE PROBLEM:

You say that you don't like Mesa because you find her to be boring. Alright, that's fine, and you're entitled to your opinion.

We can all acknowledge that she is a powerful Warframe with good survivability. You just don't like her flavour of power and survivability. Which, again, is fine, and you're entitled to your opinion.

The part of your idea that people are having problems with, is where you suggest turning Mesa into a garbage Warframe in comparison to what she would have been before your rework idea was implemented.
-'High damage, but slow' sounds good on paper, until you realise that a single-target 'high damage, but slow' is worthless in a horde shooter.
- -Take the Arquebex (another 'unlimited clip' Exalted weapon), for example. It has high fire rate, 'high damage', and an AoE, making it good for clearing hordes of enemies.
- - -Take out exclusively the AoE and it is still a useful 'high damage' machine gun that slaughters hordes quickly.
- - -Take out exclusively the 'high damage' and it is still a useful AoE machine gun that slaughters hordes (albeit with a sooner falloff point) quickly.
- - -Take out BOTH the AoE and 'high damage' and it is still a machine gun that can slaughter hordes (with an even sooner falloff point) quickly.
- - -But, take out the fire rate? Now the Arquebex is a mediocre weapon for the horde shooter game, due to mediocre AoE range that cannot be spammed.
- - -Take out both the fire rate and AoE? Now the Arquebex runs into the same problem as sniper rifles - it is only useful against 'big bosses'; outclassed everywhere else.
This is what you are suggesting to do to the Regulators - make them into a sidegrade to sniper rifles.

I don't care what thematic justifications you use, when you are attempting to justify turning a functionally stellar Warframe into a pile of garbage that few players would ever use. We all know what happened to Ash, who went down a similar road.

We don't need to make Mesa into an objectively garbage Warframe who does LESS than Ash or even Trinity, so that only you and the few people who enjoy your rework idea will ever play her.

What we need to do (which everyone can agree on), is to make Mesa's first ability into a halfway decent ability, for starters. It helps that players may subsume a useful ability into Mesa's first ability slot, but that does not excuse Mesa from needing a useful first ability by default.

 

THE SOLUTION:
Here's where we may begin to find some common ground - use a rework of Mesa's first ability to implement your rework idea, without removing the current functionality of Mesa.
Here's an example:
-Make Mesa's first ability a gunslinging stance change, similar to Equinox's first ability.
-Have this stance change slightly modify the second and third ability in some way that you desire (and maybe even have it affect normal weapons, such as making all guns able to Pandero in OG stance - to have their entire magazine fanned with above-normal fire rate, losing the functionality of ADS in the process. Alternatively, normal weapons could be fired in a 'focus mode' in your alternative stance, where damage, crit, and punch through are amplified at the cost of fire rate).
-Have the new stance from the first ability affect Mesa's Peacemaker in your desired fasion.

Now, instead of p1ssing people off becuse you're suggesting that DE take their toy away, you're suggesting that DE augment players' already existing toy as well as giving everyone something new to play with (that 'something' new being the rework idea that you're truly aiming for, all along).

This way, people will love your idea due to only 'getting something extra for what they were already using' from the idea, and if all goes well, you would get your 'ideal' Mesa implemented into the game and be able to ignore the current one.

This way, everyone walks away happy, as opposed to the discord that you've created due to the fear you've created that 'if people don't challenge your downgrade of a 'rework', DE may see the lack of negative feedback as general consent to the idea'.

Instead of creating an 'us' and 'them' ('people who prefer the current Mesa' and 'people who prefer your 'reworked' Mesa'), use universally agreed upon sentiments to create something that everyone can agree with. That way, you can spend more time developing your idea, instead of being forced to defend it from almost universal criticism.

Have a nice day! :)

Did you steal that from Red Dead Redemption / Call of Juarez 2?

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

Did you steal that from Red Dead Redemption / Call of Juarez 2?

Better then steal the macree ult and end it. Its haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa vs 9999lvl

[BRZZAFK]

2020/9/9 AM2点43分 , selig_fay 说:

Hmm. I don't see how turning peacekeepers into normal weapons will make it better. Given that most melee is mindless eeeeeeeeeeeee, maybe we nerf it too?

Totally agree with you . We should nerf melee and aoe to hell and bring aiming back to the game!

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, BRZZAFK said:

Totally agree with you . We should nerf melee and aoe to hell and bring aiming back to the game!

As I said before, for this to work, you need to create a warframe 2 with a clear system and gameplay. You need to clearly understand what energy is, what abilities are, what are the elements of mobility and what restrictions mobility has, what ammo, grenades are and how they limit the effectiveness of weapons. Also, it should be understood that the build is about setting the gameplay, and not about the level of power.

It's also about how much damage the enemies will do, how much HP they will have and how they will spawn. (and no, this is bad right now, because if I killed the enemies behind, I should expect that there is no one else there)

There are just so many crutches initially that the game will become a game without global changes. But I expect that the duviri paradox can change something, because the operator who cannot use the frame and his powers, but only his shotgun, is what could be the beginning of a good progression and customization system, where gameplay is higher than strength. 

On the other hand, I see necromech that could have gotten a better system (because stamina and limits are good for players not to think about it), but his abilities work like a frame and here we get all the same problems. Either there is little energy, or it is too much.  Just imagine if abilities 1 and 3 consumed a separate resource in the form of a grenade, but you could only install one of them in the grenade slot. The 2 ability could be a primary ability and have a cd. And 4 is the ultimate, where energy is the ultimate resource. And let's add an ability that is tied to movement and spends extra stamina. Abilities no longer fight for one resource, but if grenades are frequent, and stamina and cd can be refreshed, you can have 3 abilities, but you still have to control it, because grenades can run out, stamina is that, which affects your movement and cd is cd. Ultimate, if energy is rare, people will worry about it.

And here I want to deduce one thing: if energy is a rare ultimate resource, then peacekeepers are fine. Again, the overwath soldier talks about it. The problem here is not that thing A is OP. Not. The grenade launcher will not be OP if it is low on ammo. 

The problem is that everything is made up of small, insignificant details that can cause a big problem. And contrary to popular belief, no, I don't think the peacekeepers need to change. I think Mesa is one of the frames that is fine in the current game. The problem here is that the game itself is not fine. But here is the main question, do we want the game to be fine? I don't know, I'm just not a community, but just a person who wants his endless razorwing with normal weapons and support abilities. You know. 

And since the topic of abilities against weapons has come up, I like how this is implemented in mass effect. Each weapon has a weight and the character has a weight threshold where he receives a penalty or bonus depending on how many weapons he is carrying. I mean, you can be a human army with 3 archguns in each slot, but you are overwhelmed and your abilities will be rare, while you take only 1 pistol and your abilities are free. I love this concept, but it's, by the way.

[(PSN)thegarada]

On 2020-09-09 at 2:21 PM, Traubenzuckr said:

they aren't crazy, they hate mesa because she kills everything around them in missions and it makes them feel inferior. then they go to open an... unearnest... thread about making mesa "more fun" but actually with a goal to lay out ideas for how to make a mesa a weak and useless frame. just a poorly covered up "i hate mesa" thread. 

edit: on the internet this phenomenon is called concern trolling

I said this before in this thread, but it is worth repeating, if you expect to go to a mission with 3 people and shoot stuff, it is not going to happen. This is not how the game is played and has not been for years. People should not be complaining or trolling cuz they do not understand what are they doing. Contrary to believe, Warframe is not a shooter looter, but an ARPG. 

 

[Zarcxon]

Lets stop talking about this, Mesa is fine as is and only needs a tweak to make her 1 good, lets not nerf a working frame because "She's not fun"

[HunterDigi]

Mesa with the mesa waltz augment makes her so much more fun, like when you bullet jump and take out a enemies as you fly and see them behind walls/pillars/whatever... kinda like in the Matrix :}

 

It could be converted to be the actual limit so that you have to do stunts in order to use the auto-aim.

It could be manual aim when you're on the ground or just use your regular guns at that point (it would be a toggle cast so you don't have to cast it every time you're in air, just jump to shoot pistols, land and use your regular weapon while the ability is still being toggled on).

 

She could use some reloading (short ones tho), the revolvers have hollywood magazines...

However she's not really that scaleable... steel path enemies in new corpus tilesets just rekk her with shatter shield at its capped usable strength (95% DR I think) which is kinda insane, but also she doesn't kill grineer and corpus that fast, so reloading would be a significant nerf...

 

But the stunts stuff don't really fit the western theme of this frame... maybe a new neo-like or maxpayne-like frame that requires jumping/wallrunning to autoaim and it could come with bullet dodging too =)