What are your hopes for "warframe revised part 4"?

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2020-10-09 at 6:42 PM, Jarriaga said:

I hope DE realize that there is zero reason, advantage, or purpose for Valkyr having Ripline as an ability in 2020 when operators exist and the Parazon can be reworked to throw a ripline by holding jump since the Jackal fight made it clear ALL Warframes have Ripline but Valkyr is the only one actually wasting an ability slot for it.

So much this.

If they want to make Valkyr a parkour Goddess who can Ripline faster and with more fluidity and lethality than other frames, fine.

But this ability needs to become a universal Parazon mod and her “Ripline” enhanced significantly or changed altogether.

 

 

[master_of_destiny]

53 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That was nearly a year ago. Now with Helminth they can easily see when an ability is being discarded by such a widely disproportionate margin as to treat it as non-existent, as evidenced by the charts some devstreams ago.

That was also before the reworked Jackal fight, which made it clear ALL Warframes have Ripline. 

There was also talk of a consideration for a Valkyr rework when it was revealed a second deluxe is coming for her on Devstream 135, although no news since.

 

Rosy view of reality there.

 

Let's look at the facts stripped of promises.  DE has the ability to see how often abilities are used.  That was demonstrated years ago, when they highlighted the most used ability in the game is volt's speed buff.  As such, they've known for years that ripline is as useful as the data proves.

Now, despite this they introduced the ripline functionality to Itzal.  Valkyr has been in the game for years, so it was not a decision made with no data available.  It was also not a decision made quickly, given that version was to simply nerf it into the ground.

 

My point here is that a year doesn't matter when you have 3+ years of data on usage and despite this you gave it to Itzal.  Like it or not, DE believes the ability is good.

 

 

Now that we've discussed the facts, perhaps it's time to share my opinion.  My opinion is that Ripline was an ability borne from movement 1.0, where you had one jump.  It comes from the time when Tailwind and Superjump were movement abilities with a distinct purpose.  Note that Excalibur got to shed the later, and Zephyr's using the former as an open world traversal tool.

Now, framing it as such bullet jumps, wall latching, and movement in general have moved past the need for this ability.  It should have been replaced on Valkyr long ago.  That's my opinion, but the addition of it to Itzal is an indicator that somebody on DE's team likes it.  Why?  I cannot fathom.  I want it gone from Itzal and Valkyr, but cannot see a time when that will actually happen.

[Galuf]

il y a 21 minutes, master_of_destiny a dit :

Now, framing it as such bullet jumps, wall latching, and movement in general have moved past the need for this ability.  It should have been replaced on Valkyr long ago.  That's my opinion, but the addition of it to Itzal is an indicator that somebody on DE's team likes it.  Why?  I cannot fathom.  I want it gone from Itzal and Valkyr, but cannot see a time when that will actually happen.

DE is a company with growth tresholds, reworks are not as profitable as allocating resources at releasing new things. Frames like hydroid may get reworks because at a point everybody knows that khora is better in every way so nobody would buy it for plat. Frames that have prime variant(except iconic or starter frames that generate WAOUH effect") don't get reworked often or at all, because money has been made on those. They never really though about coherence, when something that "breaks" the game is adopted by a significant portion of the playerbase they make a move.

On Valkyr in particular, everybody knows that she is played for its ultimate and warcry, and as she has already a primed variant, DE will never rework her 1 or tweak her 2 EXCEPT if they release another variant of it.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Galuf said:

On Valkyr in particular, everybody knows that she is played for its ultimate and warcry, and as she has already a primed variant, DE will never rework her 1 or tweak her 2 EXCEPT if they release another variant of it.

Vauban and Ember ticked those exact checkboxes and got reworks anyway it is worth noting.

[Galuf]

il y a 8 minutes, Aldain a dit :

Vauban and Ember ticked those exact checkboxes and got reworks anyway it is worth noting.

Vauban: had Trainman whining(rightously) on Vauban for quite a long time, the guy made 1K forma Vauban, etc... His videos were busing, it was not looking good for DE ^^'

Ember: was omnipresent in the metagame because she was killing things while running forward without needing to cast anything, lots of complaints, absolutely horribly confusing for new players on top of balance issues, because she was the fastest in too much mission types.

There are lots of frames and you'll probably find counter arguments here or there, but basically reworks require pretty massive community blunders and/or absues to produce reworks on "vanilla" frames(frames that have prime variants basically) in general and when they do, they introduce big WAOUH effect to those in general in order to recuperate their dev time as well. Aka ember with new gauge mechanic, armor stripping(wich was meta hot topic) and freaking meteors that fall from the sky or vauban with scalling damage, armor stripping and mac guyver kit(wich is perfectly fine)

[Aldain]

Just now, Galuf said:

Ember: was omnipresent in the metagame because she was killing things while running forward without needing to cast anything, lots of complaints, absolutely horribly confusing for new players on top of balance issues, because she was the fastest in too much mission types.

Uh, I thought pre-rework Ember was basically a joke because she was super squishy, Heat was a joke and WoF basically did nothing past low levels, but ok?

I still would say that Valkyr has a good chance of being reworked, especially if the idea of a Parazon grappling hook function continues to catch on.

Besides, when Ember and Vauban got reworks their primes shot up in trade costs iirc, so it can technically still bring a profit for people who are interested/wastefully discard Prime Frames for whatever reason.

[Marine027]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Aldain:

Uh, I thought pre-rework Ember was basically a joke because she was super squishy, Heat was a joke and WoF basically did nothing past low levels, but ok?

Basically this, yet Equinox still does it also like this with her bleeding, yet no issue? Ember was quick for low extermination, that's it sadly, and WoF Augment made her somewhat more survival able due the CC, now it is micromanagment costing way to much energy go what it does, while Mesa and alike have still 90% damage reduciton skills for far less and not affecting there damage. You get used to new Ember but i personally hate this rework since it not helped much at all.

[master_of_destiny]

1 hour ago, Galuf said:

DE is a company with growth tresholds, reworks are not as profitable as allocating resources at releasing new things. Frames like hydroid may get reworks because at a point everybody knows that khora is better in every way so nobody would buy it for plat. Frames that have prime variant(except iconic or starter frames that generate WAOUH effect") don't get reworked often or at all, because money has been made on those. They never really though about coherence, when something that "breaks" the game is adopted by a significant portion of the playerbase they make a move.

On Valkyr in particular, everybody knows that she is played for its ultimate and warcry, and as she has already a primed variant, DE will never rework her 1 or tweak her 2 EXCEPT if they release another variant of it.

 

Here's the alternative from where I sit.

 

Valkyr Prime is vaulted.  This is along with a litany of other frames, and that number increases by 1 every 90 days.

With that in-mind, dedicate a small team with a goal of reworking the worst 5 powers in the game once a month.  Small?  Yeah, I'm thinking 1-2 people.  They only focus on those five powers, iterate week 1, release to a selective group test server week 2, iterate week 3, and release week 4.  What's the monetary driver?  Well, content released on partner video channels driving sales of previously underperforming frames.

What are the limitations?  Well, with very limited scope and manpower you've got to limit the reworks.  5 powers a month isn't terribly ambitious, but it would be spurring frame sales, helminth testing activities, and it could slowly chip away at the meta.

 

Do I believe DE will do it?  No.  This is a low investment and low rewards situation, until you factor in the decrease in manpower dedicated to large reworks.  People will not readily admit reworks are needed...so it's a question of vision.  Unfortunately, DE's vision has consistently been inconsistent, as others have said.  Until there's a slam dunk profit motivation (as you said), it's unlikely we'll see rework.

 

 

That all said, I can hope DE gets some managerial chutzpah.  The current state of things isn't doing this game any favors.  It's not like the game is dying, but it's not exactly healthy.

[GPrime96]

On 2020-10-09 at 5:38 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

1) i hope rivens get revised. You can throw 100k kuva at a riven and still have a trash roll. Yes this game is all about RNG but no other aspect of the game can feel, at least in my opinion, like a waste of time. I also think its a problem that the "floor" of riven disposition is so low. There are weapons where 99 percent of all rolls, if not all of them, are not optimal for the mod slot at all because the dispo is so bad and no, not every weapon in this category is that strong. I also think the lack of in game explanation for whether or not a riven is "good" leads to a lot of problems. There are people who spend all day every day looking to scam players who dont know what their rivens are worth and then just resell them. Third party sites exist but nothing in game even mentions it. 

You just answered my Hope. Riven System’s trash.

[Wolfdoggie]

I just want Ash's marking mechanic deleted and never used again for anything ever in the future and for Hydroid to actually do damage and get some QoL fixes. Hold to charge long-ass ability animations should also be permadeleted from the game and never used again. If needed; Hydroid could just get Press/Hold to change min/max range without the charge aspect.

[Wolfdoggie]

On 2020-10-09 at 7:45 PM, (PS4)Kaiser_Rebellion said:

Who throws 100k on rivs?

I personally just want enemy with better mobility. Like the same way we have the clean parkour

100k is pretty low to get a good roll.

[Kaotyke]

I wonder what could be put in place of Ripline.

Maybe Wolverine's attack? Makes a ton of bleed.

[Galuf]

Il y a 2 heures, master_of_destiny a dit :

Valkyr Prime is vaulted.  This is along with a litany of other frames, and that number increases by 1 every 90 days.

A Valkyr prime set is worth between 100 and 120p on wf market as of today. It is more or less a non factor on the platinum economy right now.

Your idea about realocating resources for reworks is not stupid but in practice it is about the skillset of the individuals available for the job. The design has to be good but more importantly the implementation as well. At DE there seem to be very few guys capable of doing good things on that particular aspect of the game, it is always the same names :). I'm pretty sure that they would have hired interns for that years ago if it was that easy lol.

[master_of_destiny]

3 minutes ago, Galuf said:

A Valkyr prime set is worth between 100 and 120p on wf market as of today. It is a non factor on the economy of the game right now.

Your idea about realocating resources for reworks is not stupid but in practice it is about the skillset of the individuals available for the job. The design has to be good but more importantly the implementation as well. At DE there seem to be very few guys capable of doing good things on that particular aspect of the game, it is always the same names :). I'm pretty sure that they would have hired interns for that years ago if it was that easy lol.

 

You're extending this incorrectly.  The names we hear about doing complete frame reworks are very different from what I'm suggesting.

 

Let me offer you an example.  Frost's Ice Wave is underpowered.  It's got stats, it has an augment, and it's gotten outclassed.

So you've got only it to mess with.  Step one is to move the augment to the base ability.  Now the base offers damage and area control.  It's now improved enough to not need any changes.  You now need to mess with the augment...and there are two ways to do it.  You can change the damage to somehow increase without the slow, or you can strengthen the slow without the damage.  The new augment truly changes the use of the ability, but doesn't fundamentally mess with Frost's kit.  The iterative testing allows you to peg numbers, and determine which route to go with the augment.

 

Three months later Frost pops up again.  Snowball is bad.  It's functionally only used to pop snow globes.  Fine.  No augment, so it's a question of what to do.  You decide to test out more damage, or heavier status effects.  After some testing the status effect is the route decided upon.  You then release an augment for it, called boulder.  Instead of a directed projectile it acts like Atlas's boulder, but spreads a heavy cold status effect without damage.  Less area than ice wave, but a longer linear area and slightly greater duration.  

 

Within four months two of Frost's abilities are reworked, and now there's a usage scenario for augments, his abilities, and the helminth is an actual decision because giving up ice wave isn't so easy.  If you coincide this with the prime unvaulting it's money in the bank to get new players to buy it.

 

 

Now, about that platinum.  It's a fallacious argument.  Virtually everything in this game can be had for real world money.  If I'm DE I don't really care about why people are spending platinum, only that they are.  New players shell out 20 USD for the prime unvault, that's content literally six years old at this point.  What I've wasted is a single coder's time.  Let's say they cost 80k a year with pay and benefits.  80,000/20 = 4000 prime unvault purchases.  Now, that 80k actually purchases me 60 ability reworks, assuming they do nothing else.  It buys me immense amounts of good will, because players are being heard regarding the reworked abilities via the test servers.  It buys promotion, as monthly videos are released about the newest builds, and the popularity of the in-process steps gets us through content droughts.

This is not head programmer work.  It's middle tier busy work, with community representative support.  The argument an intern couldn't do it is a joke.  Play with numbers, some oversight before going live, and the benefits are huge (if not easily quantified into dollars).  The reason we don't have this today isn't the complexity, but DE not investing anything until the frame is utterly broken.

 

Put less eloquently, repair isn't sexy.  Maintenance isn't exciting.  Despite this, if you invest in both you don't get to the point where things utterly break down.  DE doesn't do thing that aren't exciting and sexy, and their game suffers for it.

[GarbouwDeark]

Specific hotkeys for primary and secondary weapons instead of this swap bullS#&$.

[BahamutKaiser]

I hope, not suggesting or wishing, for a decent status variety balance, so every status is somewhat useful and occasionally ineffective. (IDK why Deimos units are immune to viral, but mechanical units aren't...)

And I hope they modernize more ineffective frames and weapons than they nerf META options.

Now if I was doing a blanket of suggestions, I'd probably want my own thread. 

[Jondrax]

I think that Chroma should have a dash. Spectral stream would have more mobility and better aiming. Also when Chroma is using his spectral stream he should have unique aim glide pose or animation. He would glide in flying pose, player could aim breath with mouse and control Chroma with movement keys. Plus he should have longer aim glide as his passive ability.

That is my suggestion on making spectral stream more fun and useful

[Krilexis]

If the revised Part 4 comes out I doubt it will be before end of the year, we have already the Prime Access, NW, Deimos, Corpus Liches and removal/change of archwing missions.

If it is, I hope they dont release it just before the holidays.

They said for sure abilites and status.  Surely reworks are coming on frames, status hmm might change some meta builds. As for Railjack revised pretty sure it will come later, we still wait for Command intrinsincs, Liches inclusion, diversity of missions. My best guess is they will release all faction liches before having a big Railajck update that or New War quest continuation.

[Marine027]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb Krilexis:

If it is, I hope they dont release it just before the holidays.

Sadly i fear exactly how it will be, like with Railjack, Scarlet Spear, Lichs and others released and them going on holidays right away. Sure we get hotfixes but once again released unpolished as always. Also Corpus Liches are planed yes, but if we get them is questionable, i remind you on the third Orb, or hell Duvari Paradox we never heard anything anymore about, or things just left in the air like Focus, Allignement itself forgotten even literally and admitted adn dropped after.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Marine027 said:

hell Duvari Paradox we never heard anything anymore about,

I have compelling evidence to suggest that DE are just being silent, but are still working on it:

Spoiler

Why would the put an in-game teaser for it into Deimos otherwise?

 

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

Gara's Spectrophage buff, make like a alt version of magnetize where enemy bullets bounce between the mirrors.

Bursa spawn in the new corpus ships tiles cause now you see them barely and added manics to normal grineer missions like they use to be when they were first introduce 

[TheGodofWiFi]

A Hydroid rework. 

But admittedly at this point hoping for that is like hoping for world peace.

[Marine027]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Loza03:

I have compelling evidence to suggest that DE are just being silent, but are still working on it:

  Unsichtbaren Inhalt anzeigen

Why would the put an in-game teaser for it into Deimos otherwise?

 

Teaser is one thing, a full releaase another, i believe it when i see it and in a not halfbaked state only to drop it after when it not fully works out.

Right? Railjack Part 3 anyone?

[Loza03]

Just now, Marine027 said:

Teaser is one thing, a full releaase another, i believe it when i see it and in a not halfbaked state only to drop it after when it not fully works out.

Right? Railjack Part 3 anyone?

Granted, but they've clearly not forgotten about it. Railjack's come up somewhat the past couple devstreams too, and given how everything to do with the New War has involved Railjack thus far, I'm betting that the two are tied together - thus delays to one are delays to the other.

Since TNW progress was swapped with Deimos due to Covid screwing up their creative process, that'd also have delayed Railjack. My guess is stress/mental health affecting creativity as much as learning to work in the new environment, hence why Deimos, which is using variants of existing themes and aesthetics was going faster. They did say that the initial Sentient tileset was one of the most challenging they ever worked on before, so having to deal with that on top of additional roadblocks from the years events would reasonably have tanked progress.

[Torbamf]

I think the three main changes would be for Companions, certain warframe abilities, and Magnetic as a status. Very few companions are actually used for their inherent abilities, a bunch of sentinels, most kavats and pretty much all kubrows are barely used since they can't perform very well damage or support wise. I think most companions should get some sort of health and damage increase, and for kubrows, maybe they can serve as tanky pets that draw enemy aggression.

There are some warframe abilities that are simply useless. Banshee's 1, Nekros' 1, Chroma's 1 and 4, Excalibur is only really used for his excalted weapon most of the time, and some others I can't remember. I'm gonna be honest, I don't have many suggestions when it comes to solutions aside from Chroma, I thought a good idea might be to make his skin follow the player like a sentinel and maybe buff its damage a bit.

Magnetic to me seems like the most niche and underused skill. Perhaps a way to make its status effect better would be that in addition to stripping shields, maybe it could lower enemy accuracy or cause their weapon to jam, I recall blast dmg also reducing accuracy but don't quote me on that.