Using DE as an example

[(XBOX)Sedit This]

We gamers are a very callous group, we have a habit of attacking the people who put out our favorite game (sometimes for good reasons). DE has had its share of mistakes and a few broken Warframe updates (virtual cursor on console comes to mind). But through all of the grief we gamers give them, the devs continue to try to make Warframe more fun for us. We sometimes forget to say "Thank you" to them for continuing to keep Warframe active and engaging for most everyone. 

 

So, to anyone from Digital Extremes that may read this: I know I have given you guys grief in the past for broken updates, Thank You for the work that you have put into a game that I continue to play. I routinely use you guys as an example on forums for other games as to how game developers are supposed to communicate with their player base. It has gotten me banned from other forums, but I feel it was justified to call out the other games moderators and devs on their bs and lack of meaningful communication. I know that we, the Warframe community, can be pretty toxic at times and have probably said somethings we wish we could take back (I know I have), but all of you at Digital Extremes have taken it in stride and (for the most part) not lashed back at us. 

In closing, I would like to say Thank You again for being loyal to your fans and putting up with us to make the best AAA indie title out there.

 

To anyone else reading, I encourage you to use DE as a positive example to other gamers and devs as to what a good Game Development Company looks and acts like.

[o0Despair0o]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Sedit This said:

a few broken Warframe updates

 

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Sedit This said:

a few

You must be new here.

[(XBOX)Sedit This]

11 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

 

You must be new here.

Lol, no. Not new, just trying to be more understanding as I get closer to being 40.

[Loza03]

14 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

 

You must be new here.

Eh, in terms of really broken updates I can only really count Liches and Railjack - Liches from a design standpoint and Railjack from a mechanical (especially since the vast majority of its glitches were multiplayer focused, and Railjack was obviously a multiplayer-focused update).

There have been poor or underwhelming updates, sure, but truly broken ones are still pretty rare.

[Kaotyke]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Sedit This said:

Lol, no. Not new, just trying to be more understanding as I get closer to being 40.

Ah, the dreaded middled age, when work stops giving pleasure and pleasure starts feeling like work.

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Eh, in terms of really broken updates I can only really count Liches and Railjack - Liches from a design standpoint and Railjack from a mechanical (especially since the vast majority of its glitches were multiplayer focused, and Railjack was obviously a multiplayer-focused update).

There have been poor or underwhelming updates, sure, but truly broken ones are still pretty rare.

The biggest one I remember was Specters of the Rail.

Nothing was ever close to the in temrs of brokeness. Everything else was could be very buggy, but also playable. SotR was very, very broken.

[WarmongerExtraordinare]

breaking the most basic things like mastery in your profile and not fixing them for weeks and months on the regular isnt exactly a "good example" behaviour 

[CaptainMinty]

I think people improperly define broken. Broken would mean it was filled with bugs that create an unplayable gameplay. Railjack I would argue, was the only one that was actually a broken update. Liches were not broken, but rather had poor design choices. In a way, they were worse because Railjack at its core wasn't bad, but just filled with bugs that made it relatively unplayable unless you were lucky. Liches however were much worse because the poor design choices that led to them being an absolute slog. I still think one of the best moves for DE to improve Liches would be an interest system that increases what rewards you are returned when slaying a Lich, instead of just getting what you lost back. After all, "All who pass through the sector must pay the tithe."

 

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Eh, in terms of really broken updates I can only really count Liches and Railjack - Liches from a design standpoint and Railjack from a mechanical (especially since the vast majority of its glitches were multiplayer focused, and Railjack was obviously a multiplayer-focused update).

There have been poor or underwhelming updates, sure, but truly broken ones are still pretty rare.

I agree with this. And for me personally, Heart of Deimos shows that DE does still have the ability to create good updates. I have loved Heart of Deimos. I've yet to finish it though. As much as people complain about Son and his tokens, I rather think DE nailed it with the update on creating a token system that perfectly allows players to garner resources while the cap has been hit. The most underwhelming update in my eyes has been Liches. Compared to every other update, they are lacking, and while potential lurks there, I don't see any real progress on making them worthwhile.

[Loza03]

Just now, Kaotyke said:

Ah, the dreaded middled age, when work stops giving pleasure and pleasure starts feeling like work.

The biggest one I remember was Specters of the Rail.

Nothing was ever close to the in temrs of brokeness. Everything else was could be very buggy, but also playable. SotR was very, very broken.

Aaaah yeah. That one was before my time.

[Jackel7]

It sadly something similar the Devs of a  certain "cyber game" are dealing with and it hasn't even been released yet

[Loza03]

10 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

I agree with this. And for me personally, Heart of Deimos shows that DE does still have the ability to create good updates. I have loved Heart of Deimos. I've yet to finish it though. As much as people complain about Son and his tokens, I rather think DE nailed it with the update on creating a token system that perfectly allows players to garner resources while the cap has been hit. The most underwhelming update in my eyes has been Liches. Compared to every other update, they are lacking, and while potential lurks there, I don't see any real progress on making them worthwhile.

Personally I found Deimos a tad hit-or-miss. A lot of two steps forward, one step back stuff.

Necramech bosses have a good base design, but aren't too great because of some of their peripheral features, like the damage reflection.

All the animals spawn throughout the environment, which is cool, but only Vulpaphylas, Predasites and Velocipods do so with any frequency.

The environment is definitely the most interesting to play in from all the open worlds, with much more much-needed verticality, but the actual bounty objectives and spawn rates are inconsistent at best, and it uses the same 'bounty locations based on area taken from' that Fortuna does despite being much smaller.

 

Hopefully Arcana can build on the good stuff and clean up the rest, since I still liked the update overall.

[Tricky5hift]

I feel like as the scale of updates increased over time the overall quality of these updates have somewhat decreased.

More than anything I feel like DE needs to reel back on the big fancy new projects and put some more focus on improving older content.

Railjack to me was by far the most botched release and several months since its release I still think it isn't even close to being a "completed" feature of the game.

[EmberStar]

52 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Eh, in terms of really broken updates I can only really count Liches and Railjack - Liches from a design standpoint and Railjack from a mechanical (especially since the vast majority of its glitches were multiplayer focused, and Railjack was obviously a multiplayer-focused update).

There have been poor or underwhelming updates, sure, but truly broken ones are still pretty rare.

Don't forget Scarlet Spear, which had severe bugs *and* just massive problems with the overall design.  Some of the bugs were fixed, but the overall design of the event was (in my opinion) still terrible even once "working as intended."  Among the major issues - you often wouldn't get rewards if you left the Flotilla before the reward payout.  So interacting with it at all could potentially *require* staying online for up to a full cycle whether you wanted to or not.  And once the Sentients were driven off, you *still* had to wait because of how all the fleets were synced up.

[HoustonDragon]

There are always bugs and patch issues in any game, especially when dealing with a MMO. Considering a lot of others I've played, I still really enjoy the overall gameplay and customization of Warframe. There are plenty of AAA developers who could learn some good lessons from DE's design.

 

Flip side, what may be super important to me may not be to everyone else, or even the dev team. From my own experience, they tend to be good about killing the game breaking bugs quickly, and are definitely not afraid to hotfix stuff as needed.

[Hypernaut1]

for all the criticism DE gets, i wonder who does it better? DE is still up there with the absolute best of the best. What is this mythical perfect game everyone seems to compare WF to? there isnt one that does it better. People just have unrealistic expectations for a game in development. 

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Sedit This said:

We gamers are a very callous group, we have a habit of attacking the people who put out our favorite game (sometimes for good reasons). DE has had its share of mistakes and a few broken Warframe updates (virtual cursor on console comes to mind). But through all of the grief we gamers give them, the devs continue to try to make Warframe more fun for us. We sometimes forget to say "Thank you" to them for continuing to keep Warframe active and engaging for most everyone. 

 

So, to anyone from Digital Extremes that may read this: I know I have given you guys grief in the past for broken updates, Thank You for the work that you have put into a game that I continue to play. I routinely use you guys as an example on forums for other games as to how game developers are supposed to communicate with their player base. It has gotten me banned from other forums, but I feel it was justified to call out the other games moderators and devs on their bs and lack of meaningful communication. I know that we, the Warframe community, can be pretty toxic at times and have probably said somethings we wish we could take back (I know I have), but all of you at Digital Extremes have taken it in stride and (for the most part) not lashed back at us. 

In closing, I would like to say Thank You again for being loyal to your fans and putting up with us to make the best AAA indie title out there.

 

To anyone else reading, I encourage you to use DE as a positive example to other gamers and devs as to what a good Game Development Company looks and acts like.

"I encourage you to use DE as a positive example to other gamers and devs as to what a good Game Development Company looks and acts like."

"good Game Development Company"

"good Game Development"

Um, well, uh, I definitely disagree there. I don't think it's always been atrocious, but imo, it's wavered between just ok and very bad.

[Loza03]

27 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Don't forget Scarlet Spear, which had severe bugs *and* just massive problems with the overall design.  Some of the bugs were fixed, but the overall design of the event was (in my opinion) still terrible even once "working as intended."  Among the major issues - you often wouldn't get rewards if you left the Flotilla before the reward payout.  So interacting with it at all could potentially *require* staying online for up to a full cycle whether you wanted to or not.  And once the Sentients were driven off, you *still* had to wait because of how all the fleets were synced up.

That's also a fair one.

IIRC, there was a Leyou report that indicated that Railjack took a lot of dev time. Considering that the three 'broken' updates seem to all be in a row, around this time, I'm wondering if that's related.

[OniDax]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That's also a fair one.

IIRC, there was a Leyou report that indicated that Railjack took a lot of dev time. Considering that the three 'broken' updates seem to all be in a row, around this time, I'm wondering if that's related.

All of their big updates take a lot of dev time. For the past few years, everything they've done has taken a lot of dev time.

[GEN-Son_17]

I've always loved and hated just how much DE involves and strongly caters to its playerbase. On one hand, it's absolutely inspiring to see a company focus on a stakeholder system instead of a shareholder system. Seriously, how rare is that? From the really good revenue generating structure they use (as well as its monitoring), to its consistent and progressive mix of updates, be they experimental or traditional.

On the other hand, I really hate how EVERY consideration from the playerbase is considered. Even conflicting, minor, nitpicking and overly analyzed ideas are attempted, which ultimately ends of wasting very valuable dev time on progression content. I'm not saying those ideas did or did not add value but I am saying that trying to focus on 3 million of those ideas definitely stalls overall progress. DE listens to us a lot so it's a double edged sword but that same playerbase isn't as understanding.

Just my opinions but it's ultimately why I love and appreciate this game and its devs. Relentless hard work, risk taking and a positive attitude is what makes a great company great!

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Sedit This said:

But through all of the grief we gamers give them, the devs continue to try to make Warframe more fun for us.

The devs get paid,  and if you have followed the the game the pass two years,  their not really making the best game for us. .  It's to keep the company alive. .  Why you think we got another open world this year instead of half the stuff that still hasn't come from the 2019 roadmap. ..   

As a paying customers,  I wish I could thank them. But they haven't delivered on the product they promised. .   "But we are in a pandemic". . This was long before that. . 

I know I'm been harsh. .  I'm just hoping things getting better. .

[Loza03]

29 minutes ago, OniDax said:

All of their big updates take a lot of dev time. For the past few years, everything they've done has taken a lot of dev time.

Ok, fair, but I think if Leyou explicitly called it out, it was a 'more so than usual' situation.

I'm not actually sure what they said exactly, so it might have been something more specific too.

[(XBOX)Sedit This]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People just have unrealistic expectations for a game in development. 

As someone who has been play testing (that's being invited to go to a Developer's offices to play, not download a beta) since the mid-90s, I disagree. I remember when games were released in a stable state, minus a few exploits that slipped through. but this was back when a T1 line was considered fast and downloading updates still took forever. There was a point in time when the severity of bugs and glitches could outright end a game studio.

[Oggyswe]

Imo overall warframe is a great game theres nothing like it. But it have some issues with alot of things. 

 

But i think the reason why is think so many people are so jaded and cynical is because they got burnet out on the game and expect the deves to make it to something else. 

[Serafim_94]

While there's definitely S#&$ to be given to DE for some of their stunts and design choices, WF is, actually, one of those very few games where I KNOW things get better as it goes, and improvements will happen. Sure, they may take huge amounts of time to come, but they come. I completely skipped liches at release, knowing they'll get ironed out. Sure, it did take us to wait for Fortuna for POE overhaul, but it happened after all. Each time I leave the game and come back, I usually find a list of things that got un#*!%ed and generally improved.

Would it be nice to not have things #*!%ed in the first place? Definitely, but I've been playing WF long enough to know that's not how it works. And looking at other life-services, those overtime improvements are more than they usually get.

[OniDax]

50 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Ok, fair, but I think if Leyou explicitly called it out, it was a 'more so than usual' situation.

I'm not actually sure what they said exactly, so it might have been something more specific too.

No. It's what DE's CEO told Leyou's shareholders to reassure them of future success. In other words, it's using the one content update as an excuse for underperformance when the real issue is the disorganized way in which DE plans and develops their content. By saying one update taking longer than usual is the reason for underperformance and failure to retain player interest, shareholders are reassured that future performance won't be hindered in the same way, because it's an extraordinary circumstance that is the stated reason for underperformance.

Ubisoft's CEO does the same thing with their shareholders. He makes excuses to reassure them of future success, while failing to actually address the underlying issues that result in underperformance.

I'm not saying it's nefarious on DE's part (it was on Ubisoft's part, because they were being untruthful in their statements). I'm just trying to explain why that report tries to pin the underperformance on one single piece of content when we know they've struggled just as much to bring other content to the game (Liches and Umbra also took around 2-3 years for them to make, just like Railjack). And it's not that it takes them 3 years to fully develop that content. Steve brainstorms an idea and experiments with making a barebones mockup of the system for a few months. Then, attention shifts to other projects for years while they postpone development of the announced content. They put together a scripted demo the following year (that they usually crunch to develop in the few months before Tennocon) and show it off. Afterwards, they focus on other things. Then they start working on it some more early the next year. They put together another scripted demo, after which they rush to get it working while also working on the other things they promised. And then it still releases in a half-baked state. That's what happened with Railjack and Kuva Liches (which, let me remind you, started off as Kingpin, was never worked on more than a small mockup, and then was resurrected with DE's second Tennocon Railjack demo).

Railjack isn't the only content that took them a long time to make. However, that year, it was one of a few content systems that took them years to make, and that's why it was especially bad for them in 2019. They dragged their feet on Railjack and Kingpin, failing to develop the initial systems they promised (Syndicate Assassination system in the case of Kingpin, talked about in 2016, and Railjack, first mentioned in 2017 and originally planned for Orb Vallis integration in 2018). DE and their players tout that as "years of planning." Procrastination isn't years of planning and certainly isn't years of development. DE needs a more structured approach and an actual plan on how they're going to develop and integrate their big ideas, and they shouldn't treat them as side projects.

54 minutes ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

The devs get paid,  and if you have followed the the game the pass two years,  their not really making the best game for us. .  It's to keep the company alive. .  Why you think we got another open world this year instead of half the stuff that still hasn't come from the 2019 roadmap. ..   

As a paying customers,  I wish I could thank them. But they haven't delivered on the product they promised. .   "But we are in a pandemic". . This was long before that. . 

I know I'm been harsh. .  I'm just hoping things getting better. .

That's how I feel as well. Plenty of other studios have been able to adapt to the pandemic and have still been able to put out a lot of quality content. DE's issues are with their development process, and that is why they are struggling during this pandemic. The pandemic exacerbated their problem. It didn't create their problem. DE has always done the bare minimum to keep their company alive and they've always just brainstormed ideas and threw stuff at the wall to see what stuck. Every time they have a delay, it isn't to polish content that is already 99% ready for release. It's always to simply get it in a barely working state, which is why almost all of their content feels half-baked when it releases. That's the bare minimum. That's why the pandemic has hit them especially hard. It also hurts when the engine is a 20-year old outdated one, full of spaghetti code (which, for some reason, WF players give DE a pass). Their process needs to change, because I agree: they aren't making the best game they could be making. They haven't been for 7 years. Warframe could be better, even with this outdated engine. At the very least, they could strive to make this the highest quality game they can make (and I'm not just talking about graphics).

1 hour ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

I've always loved and hated just how much DE involves and strongly caters to its playerbase. On one hand, it's absolutely inspiring to see a company focus on a stakeholder system instead of a shareholder system. Seriously, how rare is that? From the really good revenue generating structure they use (as well as its monitoring), to its consistent and progressive mix of updates, be they experimental or traditional.

On the other hand, I really hate how EVERY consideration from the playerbase is considered. Even conflicting, minor, nitpicking and overly analyzed ideas are attempted, which ultimately ends of wasting very valuable dev time on progression content. I'm not saying those ideas did or did not add value but I am saying that trying to focus on 3 million of those ideas definitely stalls overall progress. DE listens to us a lot so it's a double edged sword but that same playerbase isn't as understanding.

Just my opinions but it's ultimately why I love and appreciate this game and its devs. Relentless hard work, risk taking and a positive attitude is what makes a great company great!

Where did you get the idea that DE listens, or even tries to listen, to 3 million different ideas from their players? DE does what they want to do, and when some player ideas fit within that, they listen. They do not attempt to satisfy every major, minor, conflicting, nitpicky, or overly analyzed idea. That is simply not true. DE has never claimed to do that. The player base knows they don't do that. No dev does and no one expects any dev to do that. So where are you getting this asinine idea that DE does it? Where did you even get the idea that the reason for their lengthy development time for content is because they're focused on 3 million different player ideas? Because it sounds good to you? That's all it is: your imagination, your fantasy. It's not based in reality at all. You love and appreciate the game and the devs for something you completely made up.

I'm not saying you can't love the game or the devs, but don't invent a BS story to explain your love for DE and Warframe.

[(PSN)Yggranya]

7 hours ago, Serafim_94 said:

While there's definitely S#&$ to be given to DE for some of their stunts and design choices, WF is, actually, one of those very few games where I KNOW things get better as it goes, and improvements will happen. Sure, they may take huge amounts of time to come, but they come. I completely skipped liches at release, knowing they'll get ironed out. Sure, it did take us to wait for Fortuna for POE overhaul, but it happened after all. Each time I leave the game and come back, I usually find a list of things that got un#*!%ed and generally improved.

Would it be nice to not have things #*!%ed in the first place? Definitely, but I've been playing WF long enough to know that's not how it works. And looking at other life-services, those overtime improvements are more than they usually get.

Yeah, years and then some. My problems could all be solved with a rework of the entire damn game, and that is unlikely. A little tweak to armor and/or damage won't remove all the OP BS available to players. I admit that i have given up.