Using DE as an example

[DrivaMain]

Putting Whiny Veterans vs DE aside. If you compare Warframe to any similar games in the industry. It makes you think "I am glad I spent my money in the right place".

It's not the perfect game, yes. In fact, there are no perfect things in this world.

Warframe is still unbeatable in the microtransaction department compared to other games, it's very rare that the developers allowed it's players to earn the game's premium currency without spending a single dime.

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

8 hours ago, Oggyswe said:

Imo overall warframe is a great game theres nothing like it. But it have some issues with alot of things. 

 

But i think the reason why is think so many people are so jaded and cynical is because they got burnet out on the game and expect the deves to make it to something else. 

I think Railjack was when the community really started getting jaded towards DE, with an Anthem level fake game play trailer. And no man’s skies level of false promisers made. DE lost a lot of grace and respect from its players . The Railjack release dropped them out of the stream top 10 for good, and was a big reason there profits drop 12% - 2019, the another 20% - 2020.  So losing 32% profit really speaks to how players feel..

[Oriviagene]

nothing is perfect, and even DE has their own flaws, but at least DE isn't like other game company that like to surprise us with their "surprise mechanic".

[Kimimoto]

12 hours ago, (XB1)Sedit This said:

We sometimes forget to say "Thank you" to them for continuing to keep Warframe active and engaging for most everyone. 

They're not the ones keeping it "active" and "engaging", the playerbase is doing that.

[kevoisvevo]

eh i have seen better from other dev studios like cd project, larian games and various others. to me DE is just another indie mmo studio who  got lucky. only saving grace for warframe in my opinion is fashion and the ability to earn plat ingame. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

They're not the ones keeping it "active" and "engaging", the playerbase is doing that.

There's a lot of stuff for me to do as a player with only a year under my belt. DE added that stuff over time, not the players. It's not really anyone's fault salty veterans exist. 

[kevoisvevo]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

There's a lot of stuff for me to do as a player with only a year under my belt. DE added that stuff over time, not the players. It's not really anyone's fault salty veterans exist. 

coughs in steel path, railjack, kuva liches. sure paal as if your one year opinion matters more than some vets who have remained more than 5 years with the game.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

7 hours ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

The Railjack release dropped them out of the stream top 10 for good,

That’s funny because it still regularly cracks the top 10.

Quote

and was a big reason there profits drop 12% - 2019, the another 20% - 2020.  So losing 32% profit really speaks to how players feel..

That’s not how it works, you don’t just add the two percentages together. 

[Hypernaut1]

17 hours ago, (XB1)Sedit This said:

As someone who has been play testing (that's being invited to go to a Developer's offices to play, not download a beta) since the mid-90s, I disagree. I remember when games were released in a stable state, minus a few exploits that slipped through. but this was back when a T1 line was considered fast and downloading updates still took forever. There was a point in time when the severity of bugs and glitches could outright end a game studio.

You're kidding me right? Games in the 90s had bugs and we just lived with it. There were no patches. 

And I don't get your point because Warframe is currently stable. 

[Krankbert]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb (PS4)SolarPhantom82:

I think Railjack was when the community really started getting jaded towards DE, with an Anthem level fake game play trailer. And no man’s skies level of false promisers made. DE lost a lot of grace and respect from its players . The Railjack release dropped them out of the stream top 10 for good, and was a big reason there profits drop 12% - 2019, the another 20% - 2020.  So losing 32% profit really speaks to how players feel..

That‘s not now percentages work.

[(PSN)thowed]

I thank them when I buy prime access and all the add on packs.

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

4 hours ago, Krankbert said:

That‘s not now percentages work.

Lol  you right    that would be about a 16% overall drop.  Point is , their losing players and money..  hope things change 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

10 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

coughs in steel path, railjack, kuva liches. sure paal as if your one year opinion matters more than some vets who have remained more than 5 years with the game.

You're not the only person that has played a game for 7 years. Your opinion is still just that, and when I hit my 5 year mark I'll still come back and tell you your opinion is still just that. 

If you don't like the game you know where the door is.

[Akko_Cavendish]

But be careful don't criticize where they've done wrong with the game, otherwise they'll call them a personal attack

[bullgrimwm]

On 2020-11-02 at 10:29 AM, Kaotyke said:

Ah, the dreaded middled age, when work stops giving pleasure and pleasure starts feeling like work.

the truth of this statement rings so loud it hurts my ears lol (43)

[kevoisvevo]

15 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm here for 6 years of logging in and playing almost daily, just cracked over 5k hours of active mission time. (Only missed a few days where I couldn't log in because of internet issues and other stuff like visits from family)

And I agree with @(PS4)Madurai-PrimeMadurai-Prime

(Sorry for the double name there's something off with the mobile site lmao)

The bad mouthing that is going on from salty vets is downright despicable. For example, they trash talk the game because DE made certain stuff easier and doesn't require you to no life the game anymore. Literally everyone with a healthy mindset would appreciate stuff like that. 

And he or she is right, DE indeed are the ones keeping the game alive and fresh, even for people like me that sunk thousands of hours into it. 

In my 3 years of playing this game I saw them going from regular events to nights of nabarus which can barely be called an event. Raids getting replaced by tridolons which have to be farmed 21 times for a full set of arcanes, more and more glitches and performance issues, downright abysmal grind like iso vaults and kuva liches and nerfing of shotguns. Let's not even talk about dead modes like steel path or railjack. You had main story quests which came around yearly and now we just get new war cutscenes every now and then. Sure DE ain't the devil but let's not pretend that they are the paragons of gaming industry either. Everybody keeps talking about Warframe's potential but that boat has sailed now. To me DE just got lucky with a good core game concept on which they are now putting pointless fluff like necramech, railjack, hoverboards. DE can do whatever they like with their game, it's their property but players aren't beholden to liking the new changes either.

[Surbusken]

On 2020-11-02 at 6:08 PM, (XB1)Sedit This said:

..the devs continue to try to make Warframe more fun for us...

I don't think there is any evidence of that.

Increasing grinds, introducing gameplay like fishing and mining rock, archwing... regular nerfs etc. etc. etc.

It's simply objectively false, their intent is to make the game fun.

You create a new warframe, then lock them behind getting to rank 5 on a planet-grind, to prolong artificial gameplay. Or, lock the helminth grind behind the much hated fishing-mining grind.

The idea being you are ready to go through the agony of the grind because of the reward, only.

That's not trying to make the game fun, that's the opposite.

As to developer apologists being bitter about people debating the game, we've been over that.

But I guess I can add to it, what are you afraid of? If you don't brown nose developers they won't do their job anymore? They are professionals working for money - with professional pride in their work yes? They want to make the best game possible just because of that, right?

Are you saying developer's could get spiteful in their reactions?

Because that doesn't sound like something a developer apologist should even imply.

So pick a narrative.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

37 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

I don't think there is any evidence of that.

Increasing grinds, introducing gameplay like fishing and mining rock, archwing... regular nerfs etc. etc. etc.

It's simply objectively false, their intent is to make the game fun.

You create a new warframe, then lock them behind getting to rank 5 on a planet-grind, to prolong artificial gameplay. Or, lock the helminth grind behind the much hated fishing-mining grind.

The idea being you are ready to go through the agony of the grind because of the reward, only.

That's not trying to make the game fun, that's the opposite.

As to developer apologists being bitter about people debating the game, we've been over that.

But I guess I can add to it, what are you afraid of? If you don't brown nose developers they won't do their job anymore? They are professionals working for money - with professional pride in their work yes? They want to make the best game possible just because of that, right?

Are you saying developer's could get spiteful in their reactions?

Because that doesn't sound like something a developer apologist should even imply.

So pick a narrative.

That's your own fault if you dont find those things fun. I do find them entertaining/fun/engaging.

You already said you played the game for years and participated in the same grind, but just now decided you don't like it. That's your decision.

[Tricky5hift]

23 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Putting Whiny Veterans vs DE aside. If you compare Warframe to any similar games in the industry. It makes you think "I am glad I spent my money in the right place".

It's not the perfect game, yes. In fact, there are no perfect things in this world.

Warframe is still unbeatable in the microtransaction department compared to other games, it's very rare that the developers allowed it's players to earn the game's premium currency without spending a single dime.

Be that as it may, I don't think that really excuses the quality of the updates they put out.

Being a comfortably F2P game shouldn't justify sloppy work and rushed updates. And yes, I definitely think some of their updates, primarily Railjack, were badly rushed.

[Tricky5hift]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

That's your own fault if you dont find those things fun. I do find them entertaining/fun/engaging.

You already said you played the game for years and participated in the same grind, but just now decided you don't like it. That's your decision.

Well I don't think the whole "Well if you don't find this fun you should just gtfo" argument holds up either.

We should encourage DE to develop fun engaging gameplay and not be complacent with stagnant content. Everyone wants to enjoy the game and I don't think anyone has the right to judge what other's consider fun and entertaining.

[Loza03]

On 2020-11-02 at 8:00 PM, OniDax said:

No. It's what DE's CEO told Leyou's shareholders to reassure them of future success. In other words, it's using the one content update as an excuse for underperformance when the real issue is the disorganized way in which DE plans and develops their content. By saying one update taking longer than usual is the reason for underperformance and failure to retain player interest, shareholders are reassured that future performance won't be hindered in the same way, because it's an extraordinary circumstance that is the stated reason for underperformance.

Ubisoft's CEO does the same thing with their shareholders. He makes excuses to reassure them of future success, while failing to actually address the underlying issues that result in underperformance.

I'm not saying it's nefarious on DE's part (it was on Ubisoft's part, because they were being untruthful in their statements). I'm just trying to explain why that report tries to pin the underperformance on one single piece of content when we know they've struggled just as much to bring other content to the game (Liches and Umbra also took around 2-3 years for them to make, just like Railjack). And it's not that it takes them 3 years to fully develop that content. Steve brainstorms an idea and experiments with making a barebones mockup of the system for a few months. Then, attention shifts to other projects for years while they postpone development of the announced content. They put together a scripted demo the following year (that they usually crunch to develop in the few months before Tennocon) and show it off. Afterwards, they focus on other things. Then they start working on it some more early the next year. They put together another scripted demo, after which they rush to get it working while also working on the other things they promised. And then it still releases in a half-baked state. That's what happened with Railjack and Kuva Liches (which, let me remind you, started off as Kingpin, was never worked on more than a small mockup, and then was resurrected with DE's second Tennocon Railjack demo).

Railjack isn't the only content that took them a long time to make. However, that year, it was one of a few content systems that took them years to make, and that's why it was especially bad for them in 2019. They dragged their feet on Railjack and Kingpin, failing to develop the initial systems they promised (Syndicate Assassination system in the case of Kingpin, talked about in 2016, and Railjack, first mentioned in 2017 and originally planned for Orb Vallis integration in 2018). DE and their players tout that as "years of planning." Procrastination isn't years of planning and certainly isn't years of development. DE needs a more structured approach and an actual plan on how they're going to develop and integrate their big ideas, and they shouldn't treat them as side projects.

If it was just that announcement, I'd agree with you. In fact, when I read it at the time, I reacted similarly. It was a "Well, that's not great, but it's not really telling us much" response, and I went on with my day.

My stance is mainly based on that it's combined with other evidence that development around that period was troubled, not just long (although the two do tend to correlate). The aforementioned fact that three of the buggiest, most broken and/or mechanically nonsensical updates all happened in a row, and that recent updates have gone back to more normal standard is another indicator, alongside the fact that we know Railjack went through at least three design revisions to its 'real time management' component (potentially more or others we never got to see). The original power-diversion system, then the real-time avionic switching, and now the current repair system. Not to mention both Liches and Squad Link had similar treatment, being dramatically different to the final product, much more so than any of the Open Worlds, or even stuff like Melee 3.0.

In other words, a lot of the stuff trends towards DE having a bad time at that period.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2020-11-03 at 6:28 AM, kevoisvevo said:

eh i have seen better from other dev studios like cd project, larian games and various others. to me DE is just another indie mmo studio who  got lucky. only saving grace for warframe in my opinion is fashion and the ability to earn plat ingame. 

It is very different to keep an online game rolling and stable compared to a single player game. So CD Projekt and Larian arent exactly good comparisons even though they do things well. The games just arent updated nearly as often as a service game is, so there are very few patches to compare between. DE have in reality only had 3 really broken or poor releases, Specters (which I wasnt around for myself) and then Liches (extremely flawed design) and Railjack (buggy and broken for many). That is pretty good over the course of 8 years given that I can count several more buggy releases from my 8 years in WoW, a game where the devs never accounted for a massive player increase around expansions, which made the horrible experiences for about a week after each release, which we also payed for in addition to a monthly subfee.

While certain bugs in WoW seemed insignificant they quickly turned into big ones since PvP was a thing at all times. Blizzard werent very quick to fix them either, so running around getting 1HKed by a bugged Seal of Blood every day for months was far more impacting than some stability issues in WF. There simply was no workaround for such issues except not playing at all, there was never the choice to give them the same medicine at the time, since that Seal was tied to the horde only during that period of the game. Or as Blizzard did, leaving Blood Strike untouched for practically a full expansion cycle, making and leaving the Death Knight a more or less immortal 1 man army for the lifetime of nearly the whole Wrath of the Lich King era when it came down to PvP. 

Currently I think DE has been the company that I've had least issues with, and they are also often very quick to fix really crippling issues that pop up in new content releases and patches in general. And I thought Gazillion used to be a really great gaas game company aswell, with pretty damn stable and balanced patches along with quick fixes for issues and balance. And prior to Gaz I think Mythic stood out as competent aslong as they worked on DaoC, though that tumbled into incompetence with Warhammer, which may have been due to too much crunching and pressure placed on them by EA and Games Workshop.