Some Thoughts on Nezha and Subsuming

[(PSN)BMWWOW]

I know people will disagree with me, but I feel as though if you are going to drop an ability on Nezha, the go-to is the Chakram / #2.  
After the reasons stated below, I have a list of what seem to be good powers to swap in there instead.
This is an invitation for Other's Ideas too!  🙂

My reasoning on why I would drop the Chakram....

1. The Chakram (#2) is ridiculously hard to aim.  It only works if the reticle changes to RED, and getting it to do that requires pinpoint accuracy.  In the middle of a hefty fire-fight that simply takes too long.  With a shotgun for example - and most guns to be honest - you can sweep across or get close and you will do damage.  With the Chakram its all or nothing.  
FIX:  (in case DE reads this) Give the Chakram a MUCH wider AoE when thrown.  Passing By An Enemy should be as good as a direct hit.  I would then use Chakram about 1000x more.  OR give the Chakram an Auto Hit on enemies within a cone... which BTW would make an awesome visual.
Nonetheless since none of these are the case, lets move on to why I would DROP the Chakram for a better ability, As-Is.

2. The damage it does is not significant.  I have a 200% Strength Nezha build, and as soon as the enemies get above level 60, one-hit from the Chakram when they are Speared (Divine Spears) only takes away a portion of their health.  By the time you do a second throw you could have painted those same targets in bullets and ended them MUCH faster.

3.  The Debuff on enemies from Chakram is great, but again getting to the hit where it takes effect is too time consuming and other abilities & weapons could have already done the job.  Yes I am talking a few seconds, but that is a looonng few seconds in the middle of a heavy firefight.

4.  Using Chakram to teleport-BLAST is too complicated and takes too many buttons in-sequence.  Again, the amount of time and effort required is too much / too complicated, and the same effect could have been achieved faster with good weapons.

5.  Chakram Teleport in general is utterly broken unless you are traveling a vast distance.  For quick teleport across a room its utterly useless as the Chakram returns too fast and you end up "teleporting" a mere meter or so from where you started.  Its only "usefull" when you are teleporting across a valley or the like, and even then you need a long press to activate the "straight shot" plus you have to WAIT for the timing.  That is a LOT of time and energy when you could have simply been in-motion bullet jumping to the same destination.

I DO love the IDEA of the Chakram (not the least of which because its is accurate to the character from the stories), and especially when used in combo with your 4th (Spears) where it makes copies of itself to decimate the 'Speared' which works well at LOW levels.  But since I prefer high level games it - again - becomes a multiple-use tactic, and during that time you are immobile (the Chakram animation is deathly slow) and you can easily be cut down at higher levels / or you are wasting time when a good weapon could have done a better AND FASTER job.

To this end, I feel Nezha's 2nd (Chakram) is the best candidate to drop for a superior subsumed ability.
Some ideas I have r.e. what I would replace it with (Would Love To Get People's Input / Suggestions On This List)....

-- Empower - a very inexpensive "proto-ability" to use before all the others to further and significantly JACK their damage and protection !! 😀
-- A true AoE / CC power like Ember's Fireblast (which I have heard has issues - I have not tried this one)
-- A Semi AoE / CC like Oberon's Smite, to be used immediately after Spears as you stand in their midst - a similar effect to Chakram but zero wasted time "aiming"
-- Marked For Death - like Empower for Spears, used with a heavy hitting weapon on one of the Speared folk to then spread to the rest
-- Gauss' Thermal Sunder - an AoE with dual usage (Cold & Heat) and does not require aiming when you pop it right after Spears

As for dropping any of the other abilities....

I love Fire Walker Waaayyyyy too much to drop that, and I also have Speed Drift as my exilus to further get my zippyness happening, covering large distances in swaths of insta-proc heat / DoT / freeze the baddies and run away 😄
(*Note - Speed Drift also does WONDERFUL things for that insanely slow Casting Time*)

Warding Halo is Da Bomb (you can start singing Rick Astley "Never gonna give you up" on this one)  😉

And of course Spears is an incredible CC move that simply requires a secondary action to really make it - and the baddies - explode (literally or metaphorically).

So given all of the above, what are your thoughts?
Would you drop #2 / Chakram?  
Did you try and have success with a different Subsumed ability?

Thanks in advance! 🙂

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It's really not that hard, you can even put the ability on a hotkey if needed. 

No need to simplify the game more when you can learn to aim?

[minininja77]

Nezha's chakram and halo are his two strongest abilities, his 1 or 4 are much better swap outs his spears being the ideal swap out as they are costly for the little return. both breach surge and shooting gallery out perform them I like shooting gallery as its nice and mobile just like Nezha 

I would never give up the endless health and energy orbs plus the huge damage vulnerability it provides I am sitting at 230% toss that into a group and just melt them with my favorite toys

[doomeynoker]

I find nezha 4 way too costy as an instant control.

If I really need one, operator blast with zenurik or voiddash with magus lockdown will do the job for free.

[(PSN)BMWWOW]

I appreciate everyone's inout.  Took 100% of everyone's advice here and stepped into some Steel Path alerts.  
My opinion remains the same - Chakram is hot garbage.

THE GOOD NEWS.... started subsuming some different stuff:
-- Roar - a general 30% damage boost for Fire Walker and Spears, energy use is mildly costly.
-- Empower - actually does less of a damage boost than Roar, but the boost also applies to your Warding Halo if that matters (i.e. more armor), but much cheaper energy cost than Roar.
Nonetheless, the Winner Is....
-- Smite - the One I Am KEEPING (for now) but admittedly I added the Smite Infusion Augment.  Cheap to use and inside swarms of Steep Path Corpus it has several awesome effects when layered on Spears.  Gives the whole squad 100% radiation damage, and the Speared baddies are just sitting ducks.  Even if they live they are under the guaranteed Confusion effect and start attacking each other.  Can be used as a sweeping beam too and just spray the Speared folk.  So far so good.  :)
(*and not missing Chakram one bit*)  

[doomeynoker]

I recommand protea dispensary, with Health conversion mod.
It will allow you to get the 3 stacks without needing enemies to use chakram on.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

As someone who only plays Nezha with the reaping chakram augment, this is a big no from me. Losing unlimited health and energy orbs is just not worth it for my play style.

Also FWIW, I think Nezha is one of the few frames that really doesn’t benefit much from the Helminth. Sure there are some fun combos you can do with him, but he doesn’t have a “bad” ability to drop and his kit already synergizes so well.

[(PSN)Kaiser_Rebellion]

Im a neZ main so you either don’t use him much or can’t aim. Use his 4 to spawn 2 more chakrams and who the hells thinks a 200% debuff from all attacks is useless?

[SneakyErvin]

I wouldnt replace anything but Nezha's #1, it is his weakest and most pointless skill. The speed doesnt scale with strength and we can all glide and bullet jump as much as we like already. 2 and 4 syncs increadibly great and 3 is his survival option. To finalize the kit I'd either pick up Fire Blast for armor strip or Thermal Sunder for more sync with 2+4 by adding a quick tap AoE option that deals blast damage to targets afflicted with heat procs. Alternate option would be to add Radial Blind to make use of Arcane Ultimatum on him.

[minininja77]

4 hours ago, doomeynoker said:

I recommand protea dispensary, with Health conversion mod.
It will allow you to get the 3 stacks without needing enemies to use chakram on.

I didn't think dispensary worked with health conversion, if so I have a frame in mind about to get dispensary, but on Nez I like him mobile, mobile, mobile so his chakram orbs get my stacks up and keep them up  with no issues.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I wouldnt replace anything but Nezha's #1, it is his weakest and most pointless skill. The speed doesnt scale with strength and we can all glide and bullet jump as much as we like already. 2 and 4 syncs increadibly great and 3 is his survival option. To finalize the kit I'd either pick up Fire Blast for armor strip or Thermal Sunder for more sync with 2+4 by adding a quick tap AoE option that deals blast damage to targets afflicted with heat procs. Alternate option would be to add Radial Blind to make use of Arcane Ultimatum on him.

Oh hadn't thought of radial blind for some reason will be testing how I like that later today, so far shooting gallery has been hands down the winner the mobile CC and damage boost just fit Nezha so nice

[ReddyDisco]

5 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

I appreciate everyone's inout.  Took 100% of everyone's advice here and stepped into some Steel Path alerts.  
My opinion remains the same - Chakram is hot garbage. 

everyone above were advising not to subsume off chakram, don't think that's taking 100% of advice when you do the opposite

[Tiltskillet]

I wouldn't replace anything on him for anything but a niche build..  His kit is too much fun.  But if you held a rusty fork to my eyeball and said I  -had- to pick, I'd drop Fire Walker.  But with much regret in my heart.

[(NSW)Rafa-el]

I use now nezha now as my prime, and Lost a vital ability that give energy, life and multiolicate the damage...

 

[snekity]

17 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

So given all of the above, what are your thoughts?
Would you drop #2 / Chakram?  
Did you try and have success with a different Subsumed ability?

Thanks in advance! 🙂

No I would not drop Chakram due to it being very good if used with its augment mod. Combining Chakram with Divine spears also makes it alot easier hitting targets. If you are using the augment and hit speared enemies with your Chakram it will deal a decent amount of dmg + procs. Your #2 may not one-hit but there is a decent chance that the fire procs will either finish the enemie off or keep them on low health. I mostly play melee with Nezha due to his kit being very good in applying stat procs to enemies. Which you may know works really good with condition overload. When it comes to teleporting: Using your #2 to teleport is optional and not very efficient. The fact that its complicated really isnt true. The only thing you have to do is press the 2 button and press it again after about 2 seconds... About aiming: Aiming with your #2 isn't hard aswell. It really just depends on your own aiming skills imo. I hit about 95% of my Chakram shots in really close fights. Due to Nezhas #3 you dont really have to worry about dying while aiming with your #2. Your #1 also gives you a small advantage which is that if the enemie touches your trail they will be in a short stun period where they are unable to move. You can take advantage of that moment to use your Chakram on them. Removing Chakram from your build would make your #4 complete garbage imo. You could only use it to stun enemies which you can do better with other warframes.

[snekity]

10 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

I appreciate everyone's inout.  Took 100% of everyone's advice here and stepped into some Steel Path alerts.  
My opinion remains the same - Chakram is hot garbage.

THE GOOD NEWS.... started subsuming some different stuff:
-- Roar - a general 30% damage boost for Fire Walker and Spears, energy use is mildly costly.
-- Empower - actually does less of a damage boost than Roar, but the boost also applies to your Warding Halo if that matters (i.e. more armor), but much cheaper energy cost than Roar.
Nonetheless, the Winner Is....
-- Smite - the One I Am KEEPING (for now) but admittedly I added the Smite Infusion Augment.  Cheap to use and inside swarms of Steep Path Corpus it has several awesome effects when layered on Spears.  Gives the whole squad 100% radiation damage, and the Speared baddies are just sitting ducks.  Even if they live they are under the guaranteed Confusion effect and start attacking each other.  Can be used as a sweeping beam too and just spray the Speared folk.  So far so good.  :)
(*and not missing Chakram one bit*)  

Roar: Roar on Fire walker is subjective and not necessary. Spears is NOT a dmg ability and as I said above is only good with Chakram.

Empower: Worse roar + Warding Halo can tank alot of dmg even without Roar or empower. 

Smite: Radiation is cool. Speared enemies stay speared for a decent amount of time if you add duration which also helps your #1. The confusion effect really doesn't matter as you can easily kill the enemie while it's speared. 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

12 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

 

Also FWIW, I think Nezha is one of the few frames that really doesn’t benefit much from the Helminth. Sure there are some fun combos you can do with him, but he doesn’t have a “bad” ability to drop and his kit already synergizes so well.

*cries in Harrow*
 

Seriously, there are maybe 2-3 frames where I have a hard choice choosing what to subsume because the kit as a whole meshes so well. Like Harrow, the only obvious choice is to swap his condemn with pillage, because otherwise you lose out on maximizing his passive, some of the best life steal/dps buffs in the game, infinite energy, even more so then trinity, or straight up invincibility.  Not to mention how well designed his kit is within its self synergies

[TARINunit9]

22 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's really not that hard, you can even put the ability on a hotkey if needed. 

No need to simplify the game more when you can learn to aim?

Can't say I side with you, I agree with OP if he replaces "hard" with "inconsistent". I can't begin to count the number of times the Chakram blatantly ignored my crosshair and bounced off thin air into some wild direction

[Lutesque]

21 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

1. The Chakram (#2) is ridiculously hard to aim

In before some tryhard PC Gamer calls your skills into Question.

22 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

 It only works if the reticle changes to RED, and getting it to do that requires pinpoint accuracy.  In the middle of a hefty fire-fight that simply takes too long.  With a shotgun for example - and most guns to be honest - you can sweep across or get close and you will do damage.  With the Chakram its all or nothing.  
FIX:  (in case DE reads this) Give the Chakram a MUCH wider AoE when thrown.  Passing By An Enemy should be as good as a direct hit.  I would then use Chakram about 1000x more.  OR give the Chakram an Auto Hit on enemies within a cone... which BTW would make an awesome visual.
Nonetheless since none of these are the case, lets move on to why I would DROP the Chakram for a better ability, As-Is.

This doesn't just apply to the Chakras (which is basically just an Exhalted Glaives)... I have this exact problem aiming every ability that requires precision using a controller.

This just because I only have to Thumbs but also because as it turns out... Abilities actually work Differently on controller. Specifically the Modifier Button you use to select Abilities (Right Bumper/R1)... You see... When you hold down this button... It also Disables your ability to Sprint and Aim Glide... Actually I think Aiming is Disabled All together... And here's the funny thing... It's not that you can't use an Ability while Gliding... It's that you just can hold that Button while Gliding.... This means if you are fast enough you can jump... Activate and Ability... Let go of the Ability Modifier and then Press Aim to glide while the Ability Animates... It's freaking Ridiculous :O !!!

 

You also can't slide while doing this because the Modifier also affects your Crouch Button for Spoiler Mode.... However I consider this to be less of an issue because. You can simply Slide First and then hold down the Ability Modifier.... Actually Do This All the time...

I noticed watching Mouse & Keyboard Players that they don't have these Issues since they don't need a Dedicated Key to change existing Keybindings into Ability Options. Hence they can Aimglide and use an Ability without Plummeting.

22 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

2. The damage it does is not significant.  I have a 200% Strength Nezha build, and as soon as the enemies get above level 60, one-hit from the Chakram when they are Speared (Divine Spears) only takes away a portion of their health.  By the time you do a second throw you could have painted those same targets in bullets and ended them MUCH faster.

That's Because The Chakram's main Function is not to deal Damage but to lower Enemies Resistance to Damage similar to Nova's Molecular Prime.... 

I actually didn't even know this until the Interface Rework... And when I found out... I lowered Nezha's Strength because it turns out you actually dont' need that much Strength to make Enemies roughly as weak as they would under the Effects of Molecular Prime. I think it's about 160% Strength.

That being said.... The whole point of the Blazing Chakram Augment was suppose to turn Nezha's Chakram from a Debuffer into a Direct Damage Dealing Capability and yeah... Even at 200% Strength the damage Falls off sooner than I like. 

22 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

The Debuff on enemies from Chakram is great, but again getting to the hit where it takes effect is too time consuming and other abilities & weapons could have already done the job.  Yes I am talking a few seconds, but that is a looonng few seconds in the middle of a heavy firefight.

Pretty much... Too many Steps....not enough uptime.... 

It's also asking for too much make my team mates wait for me to Drive Spikes up the Enemies Ass's and Smack them with my @#&$ Ring before they are allowed to kill them... LoL... As if Messa is going to wait for that Combo. :P

22 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

4.  Using Chakram to teleport-BLAST is too complicated and takes too many buttons in-sequence.  Again, the amount of time and effort required is too much / too complicated, and the same effect could have been achieved faster with good weapons.

 

22 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

5.  Chakram Teleport in general is utterly broken unless you are traveling a vast distance.  For quick teleport across a room its utterly useless as the Chakram returns too fast and you end up "teleporting" a mere meter or so from where you started.  Its only "usefull" when you are teleporting across a valley or the like, and even then you need a long press to activate the "straight shot" plus you have to WAIT for the timing.  That is a LOT of time and energy when you could have simply been in-motion bullet jumping to the same destination.

Personally I don't find it Complicated.... For me it's just highly Unpredictable... Even when tossing it in a Straight Line it's hard to tell how fast it's moving and where I'm going to end up if I decide to teleport. It gets even worse when you factor in how it will Bounce from Enemy to enemy (although Holding down the Ability forces to travel Straightforward them Straight back).

that being said this is how I wish Loki's Switch Teleport Worked in regards to Switching with Decoy... Remember how I said trying to Aim Abilities on Controller is a huge pain in the Ass... Yeah theres no where were this is more combersome than trying to Switch with decoy from 200 Meters Aways While Aim Gliding.... 

again... Mouse & Keyboard Loki mains do this all the time but on a Controller it's so good damn Combersome.

 

I don't think I've ever Intentionally used The Blast Synergy on Fire Walker Chakram Teleport.... Not once... Not ever...doesn't seem really good to be honest considering the number of hoops you have to jump through to pull it off.

And yes... Using Chakram as a method of Traversal is counterintuitive and not at all effective for the reasons you described.... But hey... Teleporting is still quite a Rare Ability and fun to play with so I keep it just for that reason alone :P

22 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

As for dropping any of the other abilities....

I love Fire Walker Waaayyyyy too much to drop that, and I also have Speed Drift as my exilus to further get my zippyness happening, covering large distances in swaths of insta-proc heat / DoT / freeze the baddies and run away 😄
(*Note - Speed Drift also does WONDERFUL things for that insanely slow Casting Time*)

No Rush ? :( 

I love sprint speed as much as the guy but ever since Gauss came out I just pick him when I want to run fast... And use Parkour Velocity for everyone else... The biggest problem being there's no decent source of Parkour Velocity ever since they nerfe- err I mean "Fixed" Proton Pulse.

In case you didn't know... This mod had a super fun Bug where if you wall run for 10 seconds straight...the buff would remain indefinitely in all situations... Giving you Unga Bunga levels of Parkour Velocity :D

RIP Proton Pulse :(

22 hours ago, (PSN)BMWWOW said:

So given all of the above, what are your thoughts?
Would you drop #2 / Chakram?  
Did you try and have success with a different Subsumed ability?

Since Firewalker Doesn't Scale with Ability Strength then that's the one I would get rid of... 

Sure it scales with Sprint Speed the Same way Mach Rush does.... But Gauss was given a Higher Base Sprint Speed anyway and even if He Wasn't The Mach Rush Multiplier is better than Fire Walker...with the Down Side being you need to hold the button down atleast for a second to Mach Rush indefinitely....

So yeah... I would Keep Halo for Shenanigans and Delete Firewalker for... Well anything really.

 

[Galuf]

Nehza has built in status immunity and rolling guard from her 3. Her 1 and its (S#&$ty) synergies put everything on fire at melee range wich is nice but not godly. Sadly chakram has been outscalled long time ago(still good against thumpers lal) and her ultimate is deeply uninspired underwhelming as well.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Can't say I side with you, I agree with OP if he replaces "hard" with "inconsistent". I can't begin to count the number of times the Chakram blatantly ignored my crosshair and bounced off thin air into some wild direction

Must be a PC thing, works fine on console.

[BDMblue]

On 2020-12-12 at 7:57 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's really not that hard, you can even put the ability on a hotkey if needed. 

No need to simplify the game more when you can learn to aim?

I disagree. Not everyone is going to buy a mouse with 4 extra buttons on it so they can use these abilities. On top of that most of these abilities are not worth the effort. 

My fix is have them auto aim like Mesa’s ult. Cone in front of you picks the one closest to your crosshair.

Also as some one who has gamed for a while the learn to do x is a bad argument. Back in Warcraft 1 you could not attack move patrol or anything the only way the units attack is standing still or clicking on the other units with a right click. The crappy cumbersome controls were not fixed by telling people to L2P better. Those who said that then now would not go back to how RTS used to be.

If you have a reason to keep the control as is you need to link it to a benefit to the player not L2P. We don’t want to go back to games in the 80s/90s.

[xombob89]

On 2020-12-13 at 6:21 AM, minininja77 said:

Nezha's chakram and halo are his two strongest abilities, his 1 or 4 are much better swap outs his spears being the ideal swap out as they are costly for the little return. both breach surge and shooting gallery out perform them I like shooting gallery as its nice and mobile just like Nezha 

I would never give up the endless health and energy orbs plus the huge damage vulnerability it provides I am sitting at 230% toss that into a group and just melt them with my favorite toys

Yep, I replaced his 4th as well for these reasons,with breach surge. 

Firewalk is very good crowd control in addition to its speed buff and other benefits, and its also really cheap to cast with good duration. Chakram is amazing at weaking enemies, and with the added energy/health orbs its really useful for keeping energy up to spam it while also helping the team. Halo amazing obviously. Soooo only kind of meh ability is his spears. 

I tried to combo the chakram and spears (it makes new chakrams when you hit the speared guys) but I found it very unreliable combo so I rather just use something else.

[Tiltskillet]

30 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Must be a PC thing, works fine on console.

Not a PC thing either AFAICT.    The thing that he/she -might- be talking about is if I throw it and and there's a nearby object impeding its path.  When it's really close, or when I'm zoomed in it can look like the path is clear, but I think that's mostly just a visual trick--the chakram is pretty darn big, after all.   The game does have the occasional invisible geometry too. 

Anyway, if that's what it is, I think it's just a matter of getting more practice with the ability.  I barely think about the issue anymore.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

53 minutes ago, BDMblue said:

I disagree. Not everyone is going to buy a mouse with 4 extra buttons on it so they can use these abilities. On top of that most of these abilities are not worth the effort. 

My fix is have them auto aim like Mesa’s ult. Cone in front of you picks the one closest to your crosshair.

Also as some one who has gamed for a while the learn to do x is a bad argument. Back in Warcraft 1 you could not attack move patrol or anything the only way the units attack is standing still or clicking on the other units with a right click. The crappy cumbersome controls were not fixed by telling people to L2P better. Those who said that then now would not go back to how RTS used to be.

If you have a reason to keep the control as is you need to link it to a benefit to the player not L2P. We don’t want to go back to games in the 80s/90s.

I don't care if they change it, just pointing out that it's not an issue. I assume people also point and aim and press a button to shoot a gun as well.

And on console I can hotkey to any button or swipe pad so I guess using abilities is easier than PC. Sorry, I thought PC was supposed to be better for gaming lol.

[snekity]

1 hour ago, BDMblue said:

I disagree. Not everyone is going to buy a mouse with 4 extra buttons on it so they can use these abilities. On top of that most of these abilities are not worth the effort. 

My fix is have them auto aim like Mesa’s ult. Cone in front of you picks the one closest to your crosshair.

Also as some one who has gamed for a while the learn to do x is a bad argument. Back in Warcraft 1 you could not attack move patrol or anything the only way the units attack is standing still or clicking on the other units with a right click. The crappy cumbersome controls were not fixed by telling people to L2P better. Those who said that then now would not go back to how RTS used to be.

If you have a reason to keep the control as is you need to link it to a benefit to the player not L2P. We don’t want to go back to games in the 80s/90s.

Chakram doesnt need fixing just because you cant use it...