Guaranteed energy per enemy kill

[quxier]

Any current energy system stays intact.

What if every enemy killed regenerate certain, small number of energy to your frame/operator/mech?

I just played with numbers and formulas in the OpenOffice Calc and get some "pretty good results":

Formula:

Quote

RoundUpOdd(N/Level)

Where:

- N is some number, here it's 100

- Level is starting level (e.g. Teshub is 10-15 then it will be 10)

- RoundUpOdd - it rounds number up to the nearest odd integer (0.5 -> 1, 2.1 -> 3, 2.0 -> 3)

Spoiler

Quote

Enemy level	Energy per enemy killed
1	101
2	51
3	35
4	25
5	21
6	17
7	15
8	13
9	13
10	11
11	11
12	9
13	9
14	9
15	7
16	7
17	7
18	7
19	7
20	5
21	5
22	5
23	5
24	5
25	5
26	5
27	5
28	5
29	5
30	5
31	5
32	5
33	5
34	3
35	3
36	3
37	3
38	3
39	3
40	3
41	3
42	3
43	3
44	3
45	3
46	3
47	3
48	3
49	3
50	3
51	3
52	3
53	3
54	3
55	3
56	3
57	3
58	3
59	3
60	3
61	3
62	3
63	3
64	3
65	3
66	3
67	3
68	3
69	3
70	3
71	3
72	3
73	3
74	3
75	3
76	3
77	3
78	3
79	3
80	3
81	3
82	3
83	3
84	3
85	3
86	3
87	3
88	3
89	3
90	3
91	3
92	3
93	3
94	3
95	3
96	3
97	3
98	3
99	3
100	1
101	1
102	1
103	1
104	1
105	1
106	1
107	1
108	1
109	1
110	1
111	1
112	1
113	1
114	1
115	1
116	1
117	1
118	1
119	1
120	1
121	1
122	1
123	1
124	1
125	1
126	1
127	1
128	1
129	1
130	1
131	1
132	1
133	1
134	1
135	1
136	1
137	1
138	1
139	1
140	1
141	1
142	1
143	1
144	1
145	1
146	1
147	1
148	1
149	1
150	1
151	1
152	1
153	1
154	1
155	1
156	1
157	1
158	1
159	1
160	1
161	1
162	1
163	1
164	1
165	1
166	1
167	1
168	1
169	1
170	1
171	1
172	1
173	1
174	1
175	1
176	1
177	1
178	1
179	1
180	1
181	1
182	1
183	1
184	1
185	1
186	1
187	1
188	1
189	1
190	1
191	1
192	1
193	1
194	1
195	1
196	1
197	1
198	1
199	1
200	1

 

So, for example if a player goes to Void/Teshub (level 10-15) s/he will get 11 energy per enemy. Oxomoco will give 5 energy per enemy.

 

This suggestion is mostly for low level players that don't have too much energy regeneration sources. The higher level mission the lower energy per enemy you get. You get minimum 1. It won't solve enemies that suck your energy.

 

Of course formula & number are up to change but what do you think about giving small number of energy per killed enemy?

[Zeddypanda]

I like the premise, but I'm not sure there's any need to scale it with enemy level. Later areas will already have higher enemy counts and thus refill your energy faster naturally.

[Loza03]

About energy being a direct consequence of killing? Absolutely. But this system in particular? Probably not

 

1: Inverse Scaling seems a really weird system. Why are earth grineer dropping a hundred energy - new players without flow have maybe that much in their entire tank. It sets a terrible precedent.

2: "Any current energy system stay" - No. The current energy system doesn't fit into Warframe at current. It was designed for Warframe at launch, where abilities were rare, optional, and impactful, as opposed to a frequently-available necessity that get spammed and combo'd all the time. And instead of updating the system to fit the game as it is, DE just poured more energy into it, forgetting that several abilities are still designed with that launch mentality in mind.

 

Long story short, we need a system that provides a decent baseline, and can also be flexible enough to support spammy or ability combo focused frames whilst not enabling powerhouse 4-to-win frames to invalidate content, rather than the one-size-fits-all system we have now. Because one size very very patently does not fit all.

[Fenr3r]

I always thought a small passive energy regen should just have been inplace something like 0.5-1/s. the early game energy economy has always been atrocious. So much so you that you rarely get to experience your abilities, and have to rely on unloading your unmodded guns into enemies. A progressing energy regen passive could also be a nice way to milestone your progression, and could be placed as a reward for the main quest like the second dream and war within. As you learn about your operator and thus gain access to the store of your power the rate could increase, with 3/s after the second dream, and the full 5/s after the War Within. This could also help the other focus schools be more of an option if energy regen isn't solely placed in the zenurik school.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

lets have inf energy like lavos /s 

 

[Andele3025]

Just let players pick rankup stats RPG style and have one of them be 0.1 energy per rank up to 1/s at max (so e.g. instead of going +200% hp, shields and +50% energy, you go 70/130/50 and 10 rankups into energy) on most frames (naturally not a option on hilda and lavos, but also leaving it off resource juggling frames and garuda at least till the ball charge gets fixed).

[xombob89]

Huh? Did I miss something? So you want energy per kill in addition to what we have now? 

That would mean nuke frames only need to hit 4 to basically regain most of their lost energy they used to cast the skill in the first place? 

[quxier]

9 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

I like the premise, but I'm not sure there's any need to scale it with enemy level. Later areas will already have higher enemy counts and thus refill your energy faster naturally.

Higher levels would give you less energy.

 

9 hours ago, Loza03 said:

1: Inverse Scaling seems a really weird system. Why are earth grineer dropping a hundred energy - new players without flow have maybe that much in their entire tank. It sets a terrible precedent.

It's just example. I just used few formulas and make numbers "ok". Everyone, given more time, can make better formula. I wanted to show that you can use formulas & numbers decrease over level. New players just need little bit more energy, maybe not 100.

9 hours ago, Loza03 said:

2: "Any current energy system stay" - No. The current energy system doesn't fit into Warframe at current.

I meant I don't have an idea how to change whole system and I don't want to discus it here.

7 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

lets have inf energy like lavos /s 

What do you mean? Turn off your sarcasm because I don't get you.

 

56 minutes ago, xombob89 said:

Huh? Did I miss something? So you want energy per kill in addition to what we have now? 

That would mean nuke frames only need to hit 4 to basically regain most of their lost energy they used to cast the skill in the first place? 

So nuke frames kills ~100 enemies per cast?

However the better you are the better rewards should be.

[Loza03]

Just now, quxier said:

It's just example. I just used few formulas and make numbers "ok". Everyone, given more time, can make better formula. I wanted to show that you can use formulas & numbers decrease over level. New players just need little bit more energy, maybe not 100.

Inverted scaling seems weird either way. A solid baseline for everyone makes more sense because it's more consistent and easier to balance around, rather than the base.

2 minutes ago, quxier said:

I meant I don't have an idea how to change whole system and I don't want to discus it here.

The whole system needs it. The game has outgrown the old system.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

The whole system needs it. The game has outgrown the old system.

Sure... just make your own topic. I don't feel like talking about it here would bring anything good.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Inverted scaling seems weird either way. A solid baseline for everyone makes more sense because it's more consistent and easier to balance around, rather than the base.

I see your reasons here. I want to give new players more energy but I see how it could be a problem with balancing.

[Famecans]

19 hours ago, Loza03 said:

About energy being a direct consequence of killing? Absolutely. But this system in particular? Probably not

 

1: Inverse Scaling seems a really weird system. Why are earth grineer dropping a hundred energy - new players without flow have maybe that much in their entire tank. It sets a terrible precedent.

2: "Any current energy system stay" - No. The current energy system doesn't fit into Warframe at current. It was designed for Warframe at launch, where abilities were rare, optional, and impactful, as opposed to a frequently-available necessity that get spammed and combo'd all the time. And instead of updating the system to fit the game as it is, DE just poured more energy into it, forgetting that several abilities are still designed with that launch mentality in mind.

 

Long story short, we need a system that provides a decent baseline, and can also be flexible enough to support spammy or ability combo focused frames whilst not enabling powerhouse 4-to-win frames to invalidate content, rather than the one-size-fits-all system we have now. Because one size very very patently does not fit all.

there are mods using drop orbs, DE will not revise all of these mods and if they do we may have new bugs, it is interesting to keep the old system

the regeneration rate also cannot disable the function of an arcane, otherwise the DE will also have to revise arcana

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, Famecans said:

there are mods using drop orbs, DE will not revise all of these mods and if they do we may have new bugs, it is interesting to keep the old system

It doesn't particularly matter whether or not a new system is still built on orbs or not. Just not RNG or gameplay-devoid supplements (and no, there isn't any gameplay involved in popping a Zenurik Bubble, getting an Energize boost or dropping a pizza). Have energy orbs drop from consistent sources, and use the existing framework for depositing energy directly that tons of other things use already. 

6 minutes ago, Famecans said:

the regeneration rate also cannot disable the function of an arcane, otherwise the DE will also have to revise arcana

DE would have to change precisely 2 arcanes. Maybe 3.

 

Seriously, there's only two Arcanes that affect energy regeneration, and then one other that has its effect tied to orb collection.

[Famecans]

9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It doesn't particularly matter whether or not a new system is still built on orbs or not. Just not RNG or gameplay-devoid supplements (and no, there isn't any gameplay involved in popping a Zenurik Bubble, getting an Energize boost or dropping a pizza). Have energy orbs drop from consistent sources, and use the existing framework for depositing energy directly that tons of other things use already. 

DE would have to change precisely 2 arcanes. Maybe 3.

 

Seriously, there's only two Arcanes that affect energy regeneration, and then one other that has its effect tied to orb collection.

ok that would be a fix for some agile energy dependent frames to survive

what I meant is that DE seems too busy to rework old things and when they rework something there are always problems left behind, there are many useless mods completely disabled in the game, following this logic I prefer that something be added to the game instead of being poorly reworked and left behind

[(PSN)FK2P]

10 hours ago, quxier said:

Higher levels would give you less energy.

 

It's just example. I just used few formulas and make numbers "ok". Everyone, given more time, can make better formula. I wanted to show that you can use formulas & numbers decrease over level. New players just need little bit more energy, maybe not 100.

I meant I don't have an idea how to change whole system and I don't want to discus it here.

What do you mean? Turn off your sarcasm because I don't get you.

 

So nuke frames kills ~100 enemies per cast?

However the better you are the better rewards should be.

In this system, I’d like to design an enemy that fires red nullifier beams into surrounding enemies which causes them to not drop energy but instead have the energy siphoned into that one enemy to make them stronger.

[Zeddypanda]

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Higher levels would give you less energy.

Ah! I misinterpreted then! That puts me on board.

A more subtle way to solve this could be having containers, particularly lockers, give a lot more energy than they do now. I've noticed new players bother with lockers a lot more than veterans do, and it'd encourage exploration and learning maps.

[quxier]

20 minutes ago, Zeddypanda said:

A more subtle way to solve this could be having containers, particularly lockers, give a lot more energy than they do now. I've noticed new players bother with lockers a lot more than veterans do, and it'd encourage exploration and learning maps.

I hate "press x" all the time. If it were some breakable container hidden somewhere (void has many empty spaces) then... it would be better.

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

I hate "press x" all the time. If it were some breakable container hidden somewhere (void has many empty spaces) then... it would be better.

TBF for how "interactive" pressing a button to open a locker is, and the almost total lack of a reason not to open a locker, we could probably justify making the things motion sensitive - get close enough to it and it opens by itself.

OTT: I do feel passive energy regen would be more straightforward. As it is, killing is so passive in most missions that there's not a lot of practical difference. That it's so passive may mean that new players might not get the energy gen they expect - from others stealing kills or the player running a low-kill mission like Spy - and they're left confused as to what happened from mission A to mission B. Even if that rarely happens, it's a pitfall for not a lot of benefit.

Then again, I think the entire system needs a novel, ground-up rework to be more up to date, so...take that with a few cubes of salt. ^^;

[Colyeses]

I don't think it's a good idea to make players compete for kills, that's going to create a very unhealthy atmosphere.

One thing I will say though: Energy draining Eximi should have a 100% chance to drop an energy orb on death.

[taiiat]

expect it to be something like 0.05-0.1 Energy per Enemy, if that were to exist.

might be a better avenue to pursue having certain Enemy Types being guaranteed to drop an Energy Orb in addition to the existing global Chance for an Energy Orb from any Enemy.

[kgabor]

It sounds like something that would unnecessarily make the game easier.

I would rather opt to giving new players a basic Zenurik lens, as a low level optional quest reward after the Second Dream-TWW. (or just set a recommendation for Zenurik in the main quests)

That would both give some starting point in the Focus system and an incentive to start using and farming it.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

This was why Limbo's Catabomb was disabled. It wasn't because of its damage. It was because of its spam. He gets 10 energy back for each rift kill. So if he kills 10 enemies with Catabomb, he gets all 100 energy back for casting it. Most of the time it killed more than 10 so he got more energy back than he used to cast the ability. Spampalooza.

Now imagine that ability on nuke frames. They'll gain more energy back than they used on their nuke ability.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, Colyeses said:

I don't think it's a good idea to make players compete for kills, that's going to create a very unhealthy atmosphere.

Right. I'm solo player so I haven't thought about it. What if energy per kill is shared (within affinity range or something)?

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

expect it to be something like 0.05-0.1 Energy per Enemy, if that were to exist.

100 enemies and you get 10 energy? What that would change? Low level mission requires you to kill less than 100 enemies. Player wouldn't even be able to use one the lowest ability.

[MacIntoc]

Support and control frames would thank you :)

[Colyeses]

46 minutes ago, quxier said:

Right. I'm solo player so I haven't thought about it. What if energy per kill is shared (within affinity range or something)?

That would be a lot better, though it'd have to be compensated for in the numbers of course.

[Zeddypanda]

4 hours ago, kgabor said:

It sounds like something that would unnecessarily make the game easier.

I would rather opt to giving new players a basic Zenurik lens, as a low level optional quest reward after the Second Dream-TWW. (or just set a recommendation for Zenurik in the main quests)

That would both give some starting point in the Focus system and an incentive to start using and farming it.

I would rather delete focus trees and have this solution. Constantly pausing the game just to be able to interact with its core concept is not a good game mechanic.

Obviously not going to happen, but Zenurik really does need a giant nerf bat assault with energy being normalized.