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Why didn't we see the problem BEFORE the update


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Tho I know it's mainly devs'  job to find out the problem before the  update as they are the only one that is capable of experiencing the new content,

Like, we all watched the whole process of devs playing the exact same mission as we now have, right? 

What makes us not realizing the problem of "main objectives are too similar to regular mission" in the devs stream?

 

Is it the hype that when we saw the glorious aesthetic design?

Is it the devs often not showing the worst part of an update?

Or are we started to get used to the mindset that "we should not be addressing any possible problem that could happen in the update" before it's released?

Or any other reason?

If there're things that can be done by me/us to prevent these disappointment after every update, at least I would be happy to do so.

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1 minute ago, yoman15 said:

Or are we started to get used to the mindset that "we should not be addressing any possible problem that could happen in the update" before it's released?

It's definitely not this one.

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If you are talking about reb n megan playing during home time 3 days ago, then it is already too later as the build was already ready to be shipped.

Previously when reb talked about exterminate n defence, most of us thought it will be our RJ doing those but I already was suspecting as RJ already has exterminate missions from the grineer nodes.

Not sure if it is deliberately hiding that the defence is actually what we have in normal mission. But in anyway no one asked to clarify... oh well.

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You're making it sound like it's the players fault DE made what railjack currently is.
You can't have a responsability on something if you don't have the power to affect it.

If only we could have foreseen this! Then we could have done absolutely nothing about it.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Sazero:

You're making it sound like it's the players fault DE made what railjack currently is.

To be fair it is to some little extend. I'm still waiting that all those guys who found it to complicated to get an idea about the old avionics grid show their faces. And the "let's play the same ground mission via railjack taxi" - faction DE mentioned on devstream. 🤔 But seriously I somehow (at least from what I read in the forums) get the impression the whole Corpus railjack would have worked better with just adding some POI, Volatile and Orphix to mission diversity. And then, maybe some time later, they could carefully implement more of the core game missions. Also this may have avoided that the RJ vs. Grineer makes a quite half assed impression now. 

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5小时前 , Sazero 说:

You're making it sound like it's the players fault DE made what railjack currently is.
You can't have a responsability on something if you don't have the power to affect it.

If only we could have foreseen this! Then we could have done absolutely nothing about it.

 

6小时前 , yoman15 说:

If there're things that can be done by me/us to prevent these disappointment after every update, at least I would be happy to do so.

^this is what I'm talking about, not any responsibility or obligation or whatsoever, but a favor that I believe we all are willing to do for the sake of the development of the game.

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7 hours ago, Sazero said:

You're making it sound like it's the players fault DE made what railjack currently is.
You can't have a responsability on something if you don't have the power to affect it.

If only we could have foreseen this! Then we could have done absolutely nothing about it.

Yeah it's not like a group of ppl were crying that RJ has too much RJ.

Right? Right? Oh wait that actually was a thing. And now we have, Railjack is just a taxi complaints. Thank #*!%!

Edited by JackHargreav
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6 hours ago, yoman15 said:

it's mainly devs'  job to find out the problem before the  update as they are the only one that is capable of experiencing the new content

This would be true for most other game devs who hires playtesters, do playtesting and such before releasing contents.

DE counts on us to be their playtesters. They probably just do some in-house testing and release stuff to public. Warframe was wildly successful because they listened to community inputs so that's what they'll keep doing: release broken stuff and try to listen to some of our inputs, hopefully they can make enough adjustments to make the contents interesting.

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I think you have to assume that people play railjack, because they want to 'railjack'.

If you wanted to play defense you'd go unlock relics on a defense map or something, right?

 

It's an ungrateful job being a developer, you want to make things based on what you think, taking limitations and realistic possibilities into account, but then you really are working for the players and don't play the game yourself.

I think the only fun part about the work is coming up with ideas, is the only degree of freedom.

Like fishing and mining etc. is obviously someone's weird trip, they thought was a great idea, that no one asked for.

I think normally, you design the product around the customer but in video games, players get zero input.

So I wouldn't say they should be dictated, or that they shouldn't - even though they claim to build the game based on player feedback, I am just saying the only fun for them is making things they want to make.

You survey your customer first, learn their preferences.

Pre-screenings for movies, focus groups for something like food or whatever, tooth paste.

If enough people buy skinny jeans, all of a sudden you have an entire society wearing women's pants - you produce what sells. Not what you want to produce.

That's where developers have always been extremely toxic and entitled towards the players.

To this day, on most forums you get banned if you as much as say anything negative about a game. Where we actually have it a lot less worse in warframe.

 

Though, as always, there isn't any reason you can't compromise, where the developers still get to off on a wild goose chase, where if they had taken feedback early, they could still remain autonomous overall with player changes.

Is kind of pointless to sit here now, when they could have asked the question, 2-3 years ago, would you like to end railjack missions with a copy-paste round of defense?

No, well then they still have the freedom to decide on something else without feeling they are being dictate and they still have the power.

It's not all or nothing.

 

Then I will also add, the players are a resource.

Both in how much they know the game, but also games and everyone is an expert of what they personally like. You can usually always find page up and page down of dedicated players with great suggestions.

... where it seems like the developers struggle with any ideas at all.

That's a lot of know-how and expertise right out the window, especially in this day and age, where everyone you come across can easily be a semi-pro.

When you think about it people digital compentency is rather high and you have people alive right now who played video games since the early 80s or even late 70s.

A gamer with 40 years of experience across something like 8 generations doesn't bring any knowledge or ideas to the table?

 

The players are really the experts on what gameplay they'd imagine or would like, but they aren't consulted.

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7 hours ago, yoman15 said:

Or are we started to get used to the mindset that "we should not be addressing any possible problem that could happen in the update" before it's released?

DE generally doesn't accept much feedback until after it's been released. During the first set of melee when they previewed the changes, there was a lot of complaining, enough to get a response. The response to the feedback was a somewhat aggressive toned tweet saying we shouldn't complain until after we tried it, and that we would all like the change...

They've also acknowledged some feedback on their changes to the current update, but again, their normal response is to ship as is and see. Pretty pointless to even consider blaming anyone but DE when they either reject feedback, or say we're going to like it, or wait and see.

Also, some people on these forums will respond in the same manner if you try and provide feedback pre-release.

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1分钟前 , Slayer-. 说:

Yeah, click-bait titles.

huh, which part I said do you think it's not related to the topic

and why would I clickbait, it's not like I can benefit from it in any form

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8 hours ago, kyori said:

Previously when reb talked about exterminate n defence, most of us thought it will be our RJ doing those but I already was suspecting as RJ already has exterminate missions from the grineer nodes.

Not sure if it is deliberately hiding that the defence is actually what we have in normal mission. But in anyway no one asked to clarify... oh well.

I'm honestly not sure why anyone would think that unless they ignored what was said in the previous dev streams. It was clearly stated that those missions would be old modes implemented into RJ, so we go with our RJ to those missions and then play through them as normal. Which is also the initial idea of RJ, though it still isnt fleshed out, that the RJ was going to be the "new" star chart. They even pointed out a few new modes would be added aswell, if defense and so on were done for RJ combat, I'd say all of them would clock in as new modes, so highlighting that a few new modes would come aswell would be pointless, since everything would be new at that point.

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14 minutes ago, yoman15 said:

huh, which part I said do you think it's not related to the topic

and why would I clickbait, it's not like I can benefit from it in any form

Had to click on it to look. 😆

When you mentioned 'Why didn't we see the problem BEFORE the update' which problem are you talking about, their is a lot of problems from reading the MEGA-BUG thread. :tongue:

Anyway yes the missions just feel like normal missions because once we're off railjack it's exactly what it is a normal mission that can take awhile to get to because of the railjack part but I've got no idea apart from Test Servers, the feedback from the community did little.

I was sort of hoping more like the archwing missions where you had to defend the ship from attacking ships sort of along that thought at least.

Interception but with only one Railjack you'd still have to leave the ship maybe.

Edited by Slayer-.
typo added of
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Posted (edited)
11分钟前 , Slayer-. 说:

When you mentioned 'Why didn't we see the problem BEFORE the update' which problem are you talking about, their is a lot a problems from reading the MEGA-BUG thread. 

 

9小时前 , yoman15 说:

What makes us not realizing the problem of "main objectives are too similar to regular mission" in the devs stream?

^If you missed it in the first read

 

And do you expect I write "Why didn't we see main objectives are too similar to regular mission BEFORE the update"? I bet people will not bother to read through half of it when this is sinking into the flood of titles, being concise imo is important for a thread/title to project your ideas

and my main point is "why can't we seeing it before the update" instead of the problem itself, so mentioning the problem is unnecessary.

Edited by yoman15
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... How long did it actually took for you to understand that Skirmish missions are basically Sabotage and Assasination missions under a different name?

 

... The difference is that missions now rub their mission type in your face... like a Nuke.

Edited by Uhkretor
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10 часов назад, Ham_Grenabe сказал:

It's definitely not this one.

Oh, it's definitely that. Otherwise this update would have accounted for at least SOME feedback from dozens of pages of it.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Serafim_94:

Oh, it's definitely that. Otherwise this update would have accounted for at least SOME feedback from dozens of pages of it.

I wouldnt be so sure about that one. Tons of people called the deimos arcanes absolute garbage after the devworkshop and after the test cluster and they are still trash.

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Il y a 11 heures, yoman15 a dit :

Tho I know it's mainly devs'  job to find out the problem before the  update as they are the only one that is capable of experiencing the new content,

What makes us not realizing the problem of "main objectives are too similar to regular mission" in the devs stream?

Aaaaah... Dev Stream you say ? We were not blind. We saw the forums filled with delusion on everything Railjack related since release.

Révélation

We knew changes were coming. RJ release may have been buggy but at least players had something to do with their ship.

Not gonna throw everything out, whatever DE does, it will look visually gorgeous, big and kick ass space combat demos and screenshots... We'll have all that. We may even have wonderful mechanic gameplay ideas even if they last for only 20 seconds in the mission...
But the fact is, forum members always whined about Railjack.

Most of them were just "I'm not playing the game if that's how it is" and whenever some actual people playing railjack from start to finish came to give their feedback to them, they replied with even more delusion.

We couldn't even talk in most of these threads, the posts were either short and pointless or too long and changing the subject instead of finding a solution to their problem which was the main subject of the thread, originally at least.

DE is just trying to please most of us, that's their best bet for sure. And if most of us are going south, then we're all going south no matter what the rest may say.

I was fine saving my breath and energy from talking with such forum members (still wondering if they were really players), and decided to bear with it as long as I can setup my railjack equipment, setup the overall difficulty by putting handicap, weaker weapons, weaker plating. At the time, I thought we were just getting more modes still fairly similar to Skirmish mostly when it comes to the Freedom of getting attacked anytime anywhere and having to keep an eye on multiple things. Turns out I was wrong on that too.



Now ... Back on the actual videos from the official youtube channel where dev express most of their ideas. I don't watch most of it, but I do watch the devstream and workshop for big updates.
 

In this workshop Rebecca dedicate 1min40 seconds to talk about Corpus Missions.
 

Citation

Corpus Railjack not only brings new Proxima regions with varying difficulty,it also brings the strongest integration yet of core Warframe to Railjack content.

So what that means is, you'll be playing a Warframe Defense mission, 
but you'll have all of Railjack around it to get you more Affinity, and more rewards, and just a different experience.

If you just listen to this bit, at no point can you think you'd be getting the same old Defense mission, especially when the expression "Different experience" is used.

And for the most recent Home Time#47 that I didn't watch then but can now...
 

Rebecca won't be talking about the issues of course but here's what we get to hear
 

Citation

I'm going to re-assign my crew to Engineer, and I'll assign the other to Defender just in case we get boarded while we're away.

The truth is, she can't have a gunner assigned while they're in the enemy ship. Cy will assign them as Defender automatically, not only that but she makes it sound like the ship will be in potential danger, while we now know and can see in the video too, that the ship is in fact invulnerable while they're away.

When they were about to enter the enemy ship, instead of waiting inside, Rebecca waited outside, meaning she was out of the area where you'd meet a locked door and a message saying you're waiting for the other players to arrive. Since they joined together, there was no such message and the exterminate mission started right away.
She didn't do it on purpose though.

Exterminate did look like the old exterminate one, but since it wasn't clear that the ship was meant to be invulnerable, it could have been a bug, it happened before in older Railjack versions so why not.

Around 30min 19sec, Rebecca assigns a Pilot to her ship while they're inside. Again making it seem like the Railjack ship is still playing out outside, and having something to do.
But we can still tell she kinda knows how it works since she says
 

Citation

I dunno if that actually matters once you're in to be honest.

Saying "I dunno" is devoided of precision, how can you tell if the ship is playing or not with this ? As players simply consuming the Devs work, the first thing we do is trust them, if it's vague we'll imagine the better outcome.

Around 38min 39sec they go back inside an enemy ship for a Volatile mission, this time Rebecca doesn't wait for Megan and we can see the horrifying message "Waiting for other players 1/2" in this Railjack mission. If we were really looking for clues we'd have seen it right away, but it was rather short so most viewers wouldn't realise it. Stream viewers are paying more attention as to when we'd get the update.

Lastly, at no point do they try to get out of the main objective area with their Omni teleportation, they'd get a prompt saying they can't teleport, which any player would do but they don't because they already know they're locked in there. The viewer can't guess that's how it works upon viewing the stream.

Edit: just to make sure it's crystal clear, if the players don't know what the release will be then they can't give proper feedback. Even upon viewing the one-day soon to be released update on their stream, I couldn't guess the specific issues of Corpus Missions. If that close to release I still don't get it, I don't think hearing about it sooner would have helped that much especially if their choice of words is always Vague and lacking technical specificity.

At no point did I ever hear about the ship getting invulnerable while I'm doing an endless defense mission where I'm stuck inside a corpus ship tileset that I already explored outside of Railjack mode. That's how specific it could have been but it doesn't sound pretty enough for a video.

Edited by STUVash
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11 hours ago, yoman15 said:

If there're things that can be done by me/us to prevent these disappointment after every update, at least I would be happy to do so.

I tend to find that expecting DE to screw up AND playing other games tends to work wonders when it comes expectation and disappointment limitation.

Basically what I'm saying is. WF is for all intents and purposes a dead game with no creative or developmental direction and expecting anything good from it is foolishness.

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23 minutes ago, Alucard291 said:

I tend to find that expecting DE to screw up AND playing other games tends to work wonders when it comes expectation and disappointment limitation.

Basically what I'm saying is. WF is for all intents and purposes a dead game with no creative or developmental direction and expecting anything good from it is foolishness.

So guys we did it. We reached the Warframe is dead comment.

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