WHY does abolity duration affect ability energy drain? These two have nothing in common.

[0_The_F00l]

We can argue until the cows come home and my cows wander for a very long time,

But the current fact is that DE has decided to implement a specific formula for channeled abilities that calculates Energy per tic, and duration affects when that tic occurs. And for majority of the player base it makes sense and is logical.

By default every tic would be at a few hundred milliseconds, with positive duration it happens much later , with negative duration it happens much earlier.

It is visualized in the UI only when energy is lost is a whole number.

This is partially to balance frames with channeled abilities, and partially to allow a little more variety to builds.

This way frames with channeled abilities can have slightly different play styles, high duration low efficiency , low duration high efficiency or moderate duration and moderate efficiency.

 

You are free to disagree with it , but as a game stat with the different mods available, it makes sense to me.

[XRosenkreuz]

Imagine making a thread to ask a question, and then basically responding to every attempt to explain with "NO BAD WRONG >:V"

[CaptainMinty]

2 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Why there is Fleeting Expertise? 
It basically give you something and take it away at the same time


So i care to believe reason low duration translates to higher energy cost per sec is only for us not to go to OP with our builds and no other reason
 

Fleeting Expertise is good for Frames that in some way benefit from having less duration and more efficiency. Trinity is a great example of this with her Energy Vampire build. It's a pretty decent build, and thanks to her augment actually can do a lot for her ability to survive due to Shields getting the biggest of buffs not too long ago. Any frame that fires off a lot of casts with little worry of duration benefits greatly from it. It depends on build preference. With the changes to duration effecting energy drain, the mod did get quite nerfed though.

Which is a good reason btw. Fleeting Expertise was flying off traders' inventories because of how virtually every good frame used it. Duration didn't matter. All that matter was efficiency, and that really made the ability an absolute dump for almost every frame. Fleeting Expertise became such a power mod that it completely negated the downside of Blind Rage, while having no downside of its own. So with two mods, you gained an absurd amount of power strength at no downside at all other than using 2 mod slots. But because gaining absurd amounts of power was the point, those weren't wasted slots. It used to be you could have your cake and eat it too until they made duration actually a concern for channeled abilities which have become quite common.

[OneYenShort]

1 hour ago, XRosenkreuz said:

Imagine making a thread to ask a question, and then basically responding to every attempt to explain with "NO BAD WRONG >:V"

You must not be on social media much then as there is metric tons of this relating to politics, vaccinations, etc.   Why should Warframe be an escape from this level of.... "logic"?

[-Augustus-]

4 hours ago, Radu955 said:

Ability efficiency should be used for that, not ability duration.

If you just say that enough times, I'm sure the Devs will realize you're right.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

It affects how long the ability can be active for. So the duration stat is affecting the duration of an ability.

[Emolition]

4 hours ago, Radu955 said:

Ability efficiency should be used for that, not ability duration.

Hmm so you want to say using the prior exemple 100 energy over 10 seconds  to cost 200 energy for 20 seconds if you add 100% duration?  That would make me never use duration for any buffs for say you use both blind rage and duration then it would cost 400 energy for 20 seconds.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is there because it makes sense and gives extra options to reach the cap.

Like going 175% efficiency and 100% duration, or going 190% efficiency and 40% duration. Build diversity, which is good for the game.

The idea is correct but the numbers are wrong, since Efficiency is hard-capped at 175%

[Zeddypanda]

Why does having lower duration make me use more energy when playing Vauban? Efficiency should be doing that, not duration. >:[

[SneakyErvin]

21 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The idea is correct but the numbers are wrong, since Efficiency is hard-capped at 175%

Not for channeled skills, you can offset sub-100% duration with efficiency above 175% on those. It is the cost that caps at 25% out of maximum, not efficiency itself capping at 175%.

A skill with a 4/sec channel cost will cap out at 1/sec with 100% duration and 175% efficiency, the same skill will cap out at 1/sec with 40% duration and 190% efficiency aswell.

[TARINunit9]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not for channeled skills, you can offset sub-100% duration with efficiency above 175% on those. It is the cost that caps at 25% out of maximum, not efficiency itself capping at 175%.

A skill with a 4/sec channel cost will cap out at 1/sec with 100% duration and 175% efficiency, the same skill will cap out at 1/sec with 40% duration and 190% efficiency aswell.

OK if they've tweaked it in the last four years so that's correct, then thanks for correcting me

[Tesseract7777]

6 hours ago, Radu955 said:

Banshee Prime's sound quake (rank 30 frame without any mods equipped) drains 12 energy/s. If you equip transient fortitude (+55% ability str and -27.5 ability duration), the same ability will now drain 16.55 energy/s. WHY? Ability duration should have nothing to do with energy consumption. Anyone with a working brain knows that it makes no sense for ability duration to affect energy drain. Ability duration should only affect abilities that have a timer (volt's speed) and not those that consume energy over time after activation.

I know that #*!%ing with ability duration and energy drain affects the length of time that an energy consuming ability can be active for but that's what ability efficiency is for.

 

The point of this post is to highlight the irrational thinking of the devs.

Stop hurting yourself twisting your brain into mental pretzels trying to make it fit the way you think it should. 

Just know this: 

DE made it work the way it does long ago so people couldn't stay in channeled abilities as long/as easily. 

Those changes won't ever be changed back. 

That's really all you need to know.

/thread. 

[-Augustus-]

7 hours ago, Radu955 said:

Banshee Prime's sound quake (rank 30 frame without any mods equipped) drains 12 energy/s. If you equip transient fortitude (+55% ability str and -27.5 ability duration), the same ability will now drain 16.55 energy/s. WHY?

Think of it this way: Sound Quake's base duration is 1 second and costs 12 energy. At 72.5% duration, Sound Quake will only last 0.725 seconds...and getting it to run for the other 0.275 seconds should cost its normal 12e/s drain. So the real mystery seems to be why it costs 16.67e/s and not (12+(0.275 *12))e/s.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

OK if they've tweaked it in the last four years so that's correct, then thanks for correcting me

It's been like that since sept 23 2015 when update 17.5 introduced positive/negative duration impact on e/sec abilities. It is just the UI that hasnt been changed to reflect it, so people think 175% is an actual cap, when the cap is in reality just that an ability cannot cost below 25% of the base cost.

[schilds]

I know this has already been said:

It makes perfect sense.

Energy drain = energy / time. <--- there's the time component.

In the same way, you have abilities like Nova's M.Prime and Hildryn's Pillage which are distance / time, and naturally travel further the more time they have.

[Noxifer]

9 hours ago, Radu955 said:

Ability duration should have nothing to do with energy consumption. Anyone with a working brain knows that it makes no sense for ability duration to affect energy drain.

 

9 hours ago, Radu955 said:

The point of this post is to highlight the irrational thinking of the devs.

It is definitely counter-intuitive interaction. It's not the first, and it's not going to be the last I've seen in video games.
However, irrational is not the right word for it.
Clearly the devs wanted duration mods such as Primed Continuity and Narrow minded to have more use than merely be put on frames with buffs, and that they are highly sought after.
The description nowadays adequately explains, that duration affects the energy cost of toggled abilities.

The alternative would have been for everyone to be running around with 75% hard capped efficiency and it would have made for very dull modding.

[Leqesai]

9 hours ago, Radu955 said:

We have ability efficiency for that.

[OneYenShort]

I'm dumb enough to give the OP one last analogy.

Think of your warframe as a car/automobile.

"Flow" would be the size of your gas/petrol tank.

What does that make your engine? Well now as there are many ways to make engines fuel "efficient" that still doesn't make all engines equal does it?  So "Duration" would be your engine's design for  miles per gallon/kilometers per liter you get.  You can try arguing with your typical response,but I'll just point out 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, 8 cylinder, V vs. I vs. rotery... etc.  None of that comes close to touching "efficiency" now does it?

"Efficiency" comes into place because you can make additional tweeks to the engine. Spark plugs, lubricant, aerodynamic shifts, etc.  All of these changes do not change the engine at all but does still increase the mpg/kpl you can have, reducing further the amount of fuel spent per distance traveled.