Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[Oorel]

drop the mod capacity costs

[-----KARAS-----]

I love the game and very much appreciate the effort put into the melee, gun, helminth and parazon changes.

However I do not think the melee nerfs are good additions. Instead, I strongly hope that galvanized mods and arcane slots can be added to melee too.

I really do not think primaries/secondaries are weak compared to melee. They are different tools for different situations.

What is described as "guns weak" is merely an over-simplification of the phenomenon that melee is the most efficient answer for a lot of the challenges presented, and the fact that melee sometimes answer all challenges presented in a mission. I think this has created a tunnel-vision.

A better direction, in my opinion, is to create new mechanics or enemy types that encourage killing from a distance and/or precisely striking weak points.

[Azimbee]

I think Arcanes for guns is an interesting direction to go in. Sounds good.

Can we get arcanes that fundamentally alter how a weapon works? Like adding AOE to snipers and rifles? 
 

What about punchthrough? Single targeting can be rough. What makes melee good is also what makes people use AoE over an assault rifle. Can we get Ricochet Round Arcanes? Stuff like that would be wild and nice.

[L1fewater]

2 hours ago, Helioview said:

While Im a fan of most of the changes, I really don't agree with some of them. Why do the primary and secondary arcanes have to be separate? The stats are the same, so why make us grind more? Even for just one full set of primary or secondary arcanes needing 63 total, why must we grind out two for what's going to become an essential? This just seems insane to me. Having to grind 126 arcanes for the new change is ridiculous. I also don't understand why we need to have another adapter to put arcanes on. This one really sits wrong with me, as I'm already not the biggest fan of exilus adapaters. The fact that we now also need to get what I assume is going to be another 20 extra plat into our weapon if we don't have one is incredibly scummy. It's penny pinching your players and doesn't sit well with me.  I also just really don't get the glaive nerfs, were they truly overperforming that well that it was necessary?

1) You cannot buy them with plat (the lockers)

2) True though, really sucks we have to play the game and grind for the content :/

[LULAWS]

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Melee Mod Nerfs

 

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Galvanized Mods

 

I could say a lot of things about these two, but I think the best summary of my feedback here is: for the love of God keep watching reactions after release, because some of those may need readjustments the same way crit mods did after the melee changes, which culminated in Sacrificial Steel actually being a good mod for heavy attack builds.
As for immediate feedback, Berserker Fury doesn't sound too good for weapons that need the attack speed to kill well in the first place. And those are not what one would consider top tier. They're barely mid-tier, so I'd ask for a reconsideration on the condition or at least duration of the buff.

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Primary and Secondary Weapon Arcanes

I am once again gonna be real with y'all here: all these arcanes will really culminate into by themselves is even more AoE spam room clearing. The problem with single target vs AoE is still alive and well because nothing really compels players to use accuracy. Even the Eidolons are blasted way more by secondary Catchmoons and gunblades than snipers nowadays  (and have been like that for a while) and they were the only real reason to use single target equipment that didn't lie in the completely subjective realm of "I have fun with it".

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

You’ll be able to get the Arcane Slot Unlockers from Steel Path Honors

These, though... Why tie the new arcanes to an unlocker when kitguns and zaws come with a guaranteed slot, even if it's only available for their own very specific arcanes currently? Honestly feels like padding, even if it's not nearly as much of a waste of a shop slot or steel essence as a Stance Forma blueprint.

In any practical sense, most players will end up doing this to one or two of their best guns of each category, which are always multi-target guns, and run Merciless or Dexterity, depending on their melee choice, and then the system will gather more dust than Grandmother thinks she does on Deimos. While not as bad as Stance Forma, which actually have a single arguable use (Dark Split Sword) but offer the exact same benefit as just formaing the weapon normally one more time but for a higher cost (a forma, always annoying argon, 5 nitain and crafting time).

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

the Arcanes themselves drop from Acolytes in the Steel Path!

Since we're bound to be stuck with farming Acolytes some more for a while, independent of feedback, please give it a decent drop rate. Trying to get the Arbitration arcanes is still Xiphos farm tier PTSD even with how fast rotations can go by in certain game modes there and this game definitely doesn't need more of that kind of pain (unless you really like the trading people specifically, cause if it's bad the plat is gonna flow fast).

Overall, I'll say that this entire thing can work, but the changes can NOT be stopped two weeks in in lieu of the newest shiny thing from Tennocon. There are way too many balancing problems and systems that still need fixing and that could be fixed faster if done through feedback close to their release instead of feedback from already frustrated players who have no hope for changes after seeing those same systems being abandoned for what now amounts to years.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

20 minutes ago, Digressive said:

Warframe is a M rated game and so the media must be restricted as such. Logging in with your Google account (GMail) will allow you to see the video.

If a player can log into a mature rated game forum, then that player should be able to see the video post within it. No? 

why does a Warframe player need to login into a separate sight to see a Warframe related vid? I really don’t understand. 
 

[Cephisso]

Already gave most of my thoughts, but yeah, people are making the very good point that on kill effects only benefit viable guns. This is just going to make the most meta weapons better, when I would've hoped the changes would promote some diversity in equipment.

Also yeah, the glaive changes are... weird. Wind up time isn't going to change a whole lot but will make it feel much more unsatisfying without Killing Blow (which btw, needs clarification for glaives like many mods, super bad for new players) which further cements heavy attack as the only option for glaives. Why nerf light throw builds? they were already not as popular, and the Blood Rush change will hurt them enough already.

Oh yeah, and again, super not cool that the arsenal disparity only gets solved by dealing with it until you have the new gun mods/arcanes, that's not a fix.

[Astral_AEther]

il y a 9 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

I wouldn't be surprised if the new mods and arcanes got nerfed shortly after release, in fact I expect it to happen.

Nerfing the buffs made to underused weapons... Sounds like a wild concept to me :BaniraLaugh:

[AutomailPrime]

4 hours ago, RealGremlinton said:

not the glaives' damage being halved

Only quick throw damage is being halved. The throws are almost always fully charged in any scenario. Swings a bit longer now going from 0.4 to about 0.96 with amalgam OS.  Idk, gotta try. I love my Xoris

[4EvaBlazed]

so to get my primary and secondary up to par with melee in SP i have to do sp by destroying them with my melee first. seems a bit backwards

[PublikDomain]

14 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Lephantis, Vor (not many), Tyl Regor, Juggernaut, Jackal, Kela... I am sure I am missing some

One of the Lephantis heads constantly spawns adds, Vor spawns adds every stage, Tyl spawns adds, Kela spawns rollers. Jackal does technically (the little test MOAs), but he spends most of the fight spinning his laser walls anyways. Jordas' Juggernaut doesn't have any at all, but how often are you fighting him in SP? Off SP that part of Jordas is already a one-shot kill like the Sergeant. All of the bosses in the game are already trivial to fight with existing builds. And even in the worst case scenario where you're using a Galvanized mod and don't have any On Kill stacks, you're only down a trifling amount. Having 80% Multishot instead of 90% isn't even a noticeable amount.

[Sylonus]

6 minutes ago, L1fewater said:

1) You cannot buy them with plat (the lockers)

You'll be able to in a few months I'm sure lol.

[Max7238]

Oh, cool. More "Arcanes" and "Rivens" that are definitely what the game needs to affect balance. More grind, more abuse of the player-run market, more of DE's "vision" for the game rather than what players want.
Too bad this game doesn't have MWO's Cauldron equivalent, a group of players actively testing and trying to improve the overall health of the game with a loud enough voice to influence the devs. That would help. A lot. Instead I just keep watching the game constantly change the meta instead of addressing the real issues.

[Pizzarugi]

5 minutes ago, Astral_AEther said:

Nerfing the buffs made to underused weapons... Sounds like a wild concept to me :BaniraLaugh:

Just because the game has underused weapons, it shouldn't have mods and arcanes that'll be abused to make overused weapons into one-hit wonders and portable nukes. That's not how balance works.

[(PSN)DBR87]

I always believed one of the best things you could do to help out Primaries and Secondaries is to let mods like Argon Scope and Hydraulic Cross Hairs stack. I am concerened with the "on head shot kill" part because for a lot of "on kill" conditional mods you have to ensure its the weapon hit making the kill and not a status effect. This concern I have is for all Galvanized mods but more so for those two. With how married Hunter's Munitions is to all crit weapons I think it would be better to change the stack requirement to "on head shot hit" for Galvanized Scope and Galvanized Crosshairs. If not, an enemy suffering from a full stack of bleed and/or toxin procs could hamper the ability to stack those buff. As for the other Galvanized mods, as long as the mods are programed to stack when the weapon AND it's procs caused the lethal damage they should be fine.

On a side note, do we not like crit slug firing shotguns? Why is Galvanized Scope only for rifles? Why is there no Galvanized Scope for Shotguns? Especially the slug based shotguns. Pellet shotguns can get crits easier because the volume of pellets means some of them will crit. But Corinth will only have 2 or 3 slugs per trigger pull to try and crit with if you have Hell's Chamber on. Same with the Astilla and Arca Plasmor series. Would really like a Galvanized Blunderbuss or make Argon Scope and Galvanized Scope work on ALL primaries.

I generally think these are fair nerfs and good changes and I am willing to try them out before immediately saying they are bad. Just please consider the status proc issue stopping the Galvanized mods from stacking, especially the ones requiring head shot kill.

Another concern I just remembered was Steel Path Bosses. Many of them don't have fodder enemies to farm these stacks with. I don't think you can even head shot a roller. That would make two of those mods useless. There is a reason why I have yet to do Steel Path Vay Hek because the cancer of trying to take him down with increased stats is not something I want to engage in right now.

[naturalcandy]

No mods make guns can against HIGH armor enemy.
SO melee still the meta.

NO CHANGE AT ALL.

[Telfaroth]

Well, I submit a idea to enhance secondary and primary weapons that is easy to do. In the past, when you handle such weapons, there were automatically reload if were no longer munitions. Now, it start to reload only when you try to fire with it. So such weapon like a Tigris is bad and to  you rather prefer to strike with a melee weapon instead of waiting for a reload when you need to fire quickly. Change back this mechanism to an automatic reload when the weapon is handled and the charger is empty. This will make secondary and primary weapon more efficient and friendly.

[-Augustus-]

"an extremely small change" is a hilarious way to describe cutting the Kuva Nukor's number of chained beams in half. I am so glad I didn't waste any time or plat on getting a 60% nukor, because of course this is the way DE respects their player's investment.

[Do_High_Go]

The Glaives wind up time being doubled is a bit too much and here is why. With removal of attack speed stacking, making it impossible without a riven to reach industrial blender type of speeds, the mentioned mistakes will be almost near to impossible as well.

Why is Throw Speed modifiable by both normal Attack Speed and Heavy Attack Windup? Isn't that the core of the problem in it's essence and not the Throw Speed to begin with? Throw Speed scales just like Reload Speed and Charge for bows, meaning it can be low but never Zero. With the change to Attack speed stacking you are literally removing another 55-75% potential attack speed increase. I ain't preaching for High attack speed Glaives, but making the Throw Speed be 2 times slower means that instead of it being 0.27(27) with the 120% Heavy Attack Windup reduction, it will become 0.54(54) instead. That is almost the same as original, at the cost of 2 mods?

In other perspective, with 1.2 base, with only one 60% Windup reduction mod, you charge for 0.75 which is still slower than UNMODED original time of 0.6 which with the 60% decrease is 0.375. Who is going to put a Berserker (Fury) in a Heavy attack focused Build? Well now EVERYONE because apparently putting actual attack speed mods on Glaives has become mandatory. If you don't you will hate throwing Glaives.

Damage reduction is fine, bigger gap in the difference between charged and quick throw is good, but..... not when now it takes double the time to charge an attack only to deal the same damage as before :) I don't want to go into conspiracy theory territory here, however "random throws" kind of doesn't feel to me like big enough problem to justify Doubling the time to throw.

Like come on it looks like you scraped the bottom of the barrel of "Complaints about Glaive Gameplay" and you found a problem that exists because Attack Speed Stacking Exists, that you are subsequently removing as well. In that sense that nerf is not just "Double Charge Time" it is more because now you cannot even run Primed Fury AND Berserker to gain that 130% Attack Speed increase, so say goodbye to another 55%-70% Attack Speed, whilst being 2x slower than before.

A simple cap of 0.25 seconds would have still solved the problem with "Random Throws", without crippling the experience of others that don't go Industrial Blender mode with their glaives don't you think? Ok, I will give you another one: Make it so only the Attack Speed multiplier or Heavy Attack Windup work at a given time, whichever has the higher value gets applied to the Throw Speed time.

Just Don't Do It Like That!

[L1fewater]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)AssaultDemiGod said:

So instead of outright buffing the mods you created an alternative approach by creating “wind up” mods to make people farm for them and still disregarding the issue you created by not being able to stack both crit mods onto a primary or secondary and then also nerfing almost essential melee mods for what reason now? Makes sense 👍

You're right, it does make sense :)

[-ShadowRadiance-]

7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 new Galvanized Mods.  

 

*Looks at Galvanized Hell.*

*Looks at phantasma with already, +22 multishot*

 

Whaaat? yall planning to drop Super extreme steel path?

Whatever do i need to put 400 status procs on a single enemy in 1.2 seconds for?

 

Meh il take it.

[woschdvendetta]

So after bringing melee to a fun state with dozens of patches (where it is still at 2.9999~ and not 3.0 like promised a million times) you now nerf THREE META MODS at the same time?

The Berserker Nerf would have sufficed to destroy fun for the time being. It is effectively dead and will be replaced by Fury mods where applicable, otherwise you just kill off about 50% of the melee arsenal as most of these weapons are flat out unusable without it.

"On Headshot Kill" is just so stupid. Sure, I sometimes like a precise weapon and actually aiming and doing headshots. But have you played your own game? It's just not an option to reliably proc Buffs.

Add in short buff durations so the buff always drops off and it's just horrible.

 

Why not make it "On A Full Moon: Every 10 Headshot Kills: Receive a 10% Damage Buff for 1 Second, Stacks 3000 Times."?

What an absolute joke.

Try to bring in solutions for Primary & Secondary THAT WORK first before nerfing the only other available option. The overconfidence that this will magically fix Primaries with one patch is sad to see, and you absolutely should know better than to rush out big changes like this.

 

Killing massively overtuned event Bosses like Wolf of Saturn Six? Sorry, gotta kill some adds for 90% of the fight so your buffs don't fall off because you cannot proc them on single targets.

[xcrimsonlegendx]

32 minutes ago, Digressive said:

Warframe is a M rated game and so the media must be restricted as such. Logging in with your Google account (GMail) will allow you to see the video.

I'm already logged into my google/youtube accounts and it still shows as age restricted here.

[Mixnek]

I can tell what I think of the changes after I play-tested it. Based on the changes I see AOE-spamming weapons being firmly cemented as most used, followed by some shotguns like Cedo as the new Nukor. 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

As someone who does the whole run and gun, rarely if ever scoped, it's a shame that the two crit mods won't see any usage from folks like me. I know what mods they're based on but if these are going to be the heavy hitting mods you bring to the Steel Path, could we please have this restriction removed?

Also, if we're nerfing mods like Blood Rush, can we make start making Acolyte mods usable on exalted melee weapons already?

Other than that, great changes!