The focus rework and Zenurik

[Karsaros]

Honestly I hope they neuter energy gain with the operator via Zenruik the energy market is so bloated as it is I'm surprised inflation hasn't kicked in yet, on another note players should stop relying on having energy at all times I view it as a convenience more than anything else granted I have been Unariu since the beginning, so if I have energy cool if not then it is what it is, besides between the rage mod and large energy restores on the gear wheel why does things like energizing dash have to exist?

[Lutesque]

18 minutes ago, Karsaros said:

Honestly I hope they neuter energy gain with the operator via Zenruik the energy market is so bloated as it is I'm surprised inflation hasn't kicked in yet, on another note players should stop relying on having energy at all times I view it as a convenience more than anything else granted I have been Unariu since the beginning, so if I have energy cool if not then it is what it is, besides between the rage mod and large energy restores on the gear wheel why does things like energizing dash have to exist?

This is another case of "I think everybody is the same as me." Type of responses and we'll....

I don't know what to say ?

Not everybody is going to be in the same situation you're in.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

[Zeclem]

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

The cc requires actually using Operator.

i actually use my operator.

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

You also don't need Zenurik for CC on your Operator either.

you have to sacrifice several arcane slots and that is super inefficient for cc. zenurik has a form of cc for basically any purpose.

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

The energy like I said is either wasted or not even accessible to some builds. We also know what Warframes people use. The most used Warframes are not Warframes that spam abilities to warrant the use of Zenurik, or generate energy naturally in their kits, or are using channeled abilities. Referenced below.

channeling builds and builds that generate their own energy within their kits are tiny exceptions, not the rule. most builds make use of zenurik. and among the top 10 warframes, only excalibur really cant make use of zenurik and only if its a build that uses eb exclusively and nothing else.

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

When something is popular it is precisely because people are 'lazy' [casual]. 'Convenience' is a 'good reason'. It has already been shown that for Warframe, and games in general, people get their playstyles from content creators rather than figuring it out on their own. If people 'knew better', then SP would've been a breeze,

it is.

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

Eidolons wouldn't be unpopular,

have you ever considered thats it unpopular because its only doable within a specific timeframe and requires some degree of team co-op much unlike literally everything else in the game and not because its too hard?

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

Railjack ground enemies wouldn't need to be nerfed nor would Railjack in general,

not really. railjack is meant to be an usual part of the game. it isnt illogical to expect it to be brought down to the levels where most people can do it. and even with those nerfs railjack grineer is still the toughest faction to deal with by a good margin.

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

even consider Starchart had been made easier.

which has never really happened.

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

Disruption is unpopular due to single target dps/cc check that people fail. The mainstream builds are all centered around clearing trash mobs.

do you have any evidence for that?

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

There is more than just simple focus changes, but even functional changes. The changes are clearly about making Operator easier to use, and to encourage people to actually use them.

we havent seen the focus changes though, so idk where you get that information from what little we have seen.

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

Being 'lazy' [causal] when it comes to a hobby that is meant to be 'fun' isn't even a bad thing. Games are meant to be for enjoyment and to pass time. It is absolutely normal that most people aren't going to put in what is considered an enormous effort to master a game, or sit there reading paragraph upon paragraph just to figure out how things work. This is why mainstream games are fairly simple to pick up. I'm not one that considers being casual to be a bad thing, or use it in an insulting manner.

yeah but that is irrelevant to the discussion. nobody has claimed that you did.

On 2022-03-24 at 4:35 AM, Yamazuki said:

You mean, you do. If we're going by personal experience, I pug almost every single run for years, I can see ally energy bars, and they stay full. Abilities are redundant in the current era of BOOM AOE spam anyways. People complain about bullet sponges which only exist when abilities aren't used or sub-optimal loadout. Most popular Warframes don't really use abilities but serve as a weapons transport platform or are duration based.

abilities are never redundant. and the only popular warframe that can be somewhat argued to be a "weapons platform" is wukong, and even for him it is a stretch.

On 2022-03-24 at 7:33 AM, WH1735S0W said:

Yet from what I've seen people who first get access to focus schools often don't know better.

yeah and? it is the most popular school by far and people see that and pick it up first. that doesnt mean its only good because people wrongly think that it is. it has very good reasons why its the most preferred school by far.

[Kokomala]

Zenurik is popular because it is most useful during mid game when your energy resorces are low, and you have not invested into a max rank energize. Even in late game it is still popular because it makes energy management much easier.

Going by the dev stream I'm expecting temporal blast and a combined version of void static/lightning dash to become operator abilities. Switching to operator form will either proc the energy regen or provide a cast speed buff.

Ideally they add base energy regeneration to every frame and scrap energizing dash completely.

 

 

[(XBOX)K1jker]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb Kokomala:

 

Ideally they add base energy regeneration to every frame and scrap energizing dash completely.

 

 

It does work in archwing 👀 but what will Lavos and Hildryn get? :( 

[SneakyErvin]

On 2022-03-24 at 2:38 PM, Lutesque said:

Which mod ?

The Pressure One from ? 🤔

I'm not sure I understand this specific part....

Synth Deconstruct from Venus bounties, Panzer Vulp precept from the pet and Equilibrium from uhm wherever we get that. Then top it off with synth fiber so you can always pick up health orbs. Same works for sentients/moas and any old weapon, just less reliable. And that is if you for some reason cannot get enough energy by just maximizing efficiency.

My main point though is that Zenurik is highly overrated because we have so many other options to manage and sustain our energy.

[cute_moth.npc]

On 2022-03-22 at 10:13 PM, vanaukas said:

Aw, thank you, I feel flattered!

About void dash, I have mixed feelings, I'm gonna try to explain it (brace yourself):

- Old void dash without customizations is slow, short and expensive as hell, eerily similar to the one that was shown on devstream. All of that makes it very similar to current bullet jump of warframes, but multidirectional. Without naramon augments you can, in fact, use a lot of verticallity to avoid dealing with enemies and do quite impressive stuff (stuff that I always miss that much that sometiems I just take off the Naramon waybound).

- New void dash was shown with only unairu active, every other school was locked IIRC (or at least a lot of them).

- Old void dash maxed out is fast, long and "spammable" (with the right schools or arcanes), but also unrelliable due how the "out of bounds" mechanics on warframe works. You wan't to use that empty vertical space? Too bad, there is a invisible "out of bounds wall" over there, enjoy your black screen. This is so inconsistent that I started to aim directly to walls and ended up giving up the whole "look at me I'm an annoying fly" gameplay without naramon upgrade. It's not the void dash itself the issue on this particular case, but how out of bounds mechanics works and where those limits are on tilesets.

- Even without going to black screens, current maxed out void dash it's a nightmare to use on places like Deimos or Eris. Not only due narrow corridors but due tendrils coming out of nowhere that you'll clip into quite frequently, needing "usntuck" to be used most of the times. Those are extreme examples, but most if not all nodes and tilesets have their "quirks" that you get used to while doing void dash.

- I understand the fact that Rebbeca tries really hard to play cool and good but she obviously doesn't know how to take advantage of the operator. I don't even know if the lack of backwards dashes were because they removed it or because she didn't used it. I'm saying this because it's somehting important to consider: We only have footage from someone that's not used to operator gameplay, in the right hands maybe that same kit could look better.

- The telegraphed new void dash looks amazing for me. It may need some tweaks (and I genuinelly hope they are willing to take on our feedback for this), because now you have full controll of that ability. For me that's really  important but I do understand why people is going mad on it, since their main purpose of using the operator is "going fast" or dashing to get some ability (energy, invulnerability, finishers, etc). I also understnd that my tastes are in the niche of niches, enjoying operator gameplay is so unreal for some people that I don't blame them for not using it or getting mad over the possible changes. I wish we could find a common place to live on, with more control over the ability and going fast as we do now.

About this, I've suggested in the past keeping the distance of the regular void dash, but giving the speed of the current maxed out void dash + more dashes to have similar outputs on how much you can travel spamming void dash. That way you gain control, no one looses speed and everything keeps the same regarding void dash.

-What are the pro's of the new thing that was shown imo?

•  Potentially better with upgrades 
•  Full control
•  Real momentum to mess with physics
•  Beautiful to see, NGL (Looks as cool as Blink Token from Remnant)

What are the cons?

•  Potentially slow even with upgrades
•  Slow input to choose where you want to go

What's my stance on this? I'm waiting for the full workshop reveal about the rework and also after that, I'm gonna wait until I can laid my hands on the whole kit, since sometimes the playerbase reacts negativelly to future implementations on workshop, only to later try it and then praising it (Like Helminth, Invigorations, some Augments, some Weapons, Liches/sisters changes, and a veyr large list). Sometimes we, players, nails it perfectly and sometimes we are totally wrong.

Sorry the long blabbering, but I'm now asking you your opinion on this. What are you expecting? What are your fears? Do oyu have some secret wish about operators that you want it implemented? For the last part, I wanted operator melees but that's out of discussion apparently :/

 

The fact that Operator is sort of unenjoyable until you have unlocked at least some of the energy and travel Waybounds is definitely a thing that plagues the system, you are right that it will be more desirable to see it work when it's actually upgraded. It looked like Mind Sprint was activated by Rebecca though, considering that when you look at how distance covered was affected by her switching back and forth the void dash looked barely faster than her Warframe, I hope maybe it was not on. I personally do tight corners and stuff like Eris by doing slide-dash-slide combos instead of just relying on Void Dash, but I don't know if the new one will feel good to just dash-dash around corners instead? It might be okay.

Mobility is one of the very few real combat advantages an operator has over a Warframe to me, some stuff like Lockdown has niches where it works in some scenarios that others don't work in but overall it is the standout reason to actually play an operator for real at all so I'm nervous that if they wreck it, they're wrecking operator combat.

A secret wish? No.. I sort of thought a rework would mean doing things like tuning the really undesirable focus skills, fixing some of the ones with bugs, maybe adding some more active gameplay and gearing up operators with a more finished and ready set of schools for some operator focused missions. My real fear is that I just honestly don't have a ton of faith in this company to correct if they make a design mistake. They just leave stuff for years whether players like it or not. What we have now works really well to me, the gameplay preview in comparison was not very good - I hope it's just a matter of presentation, and that they will keep working on making it better before release.

Thanks for replying! I do feel a bit less apocalyptic about it ^^;

[vanaukas]

13 minutes ago, Twin_Fawn said:

The fact that Operator is sort of unenjoyable until you have unlocked at least some of the energy and travel Waybounds is definitely a thing that plagues the system, you are right that it will be more desirable to see it work when it's actually upgraded. It looked like Mind Sprint was activated by Rebecca though, considering that when you look at how distance covered was affected by her switching back and forth the void dash looked barely faster than her Warframe, I hope maybe it was not on. I personally do tight corners and stuff like Eris by doing slide-dash-slide combos instead of just relying on Void Dash, but I don't know if the new one will feel good to just dash-dash around corners instead? It might be okay.

Mobility is one of the very few real combat advantages an operator has over a Warframe to me, some stuff like Lockdown has niches where it works in some scenarios that others don't work in but overall it is the standout reason to actually play an operator for real at all so I'm nervous that if they wreck it, they're wrecking operator combat.

A secret wish? No.. I sort of thought a rework would mean doing things like tuning the really undesirable focus skills, fixing some of the ones with bugs, maybe adding some more active gameplay and gearing up operators with a more finished and ready set of schools for some operator focused missions. My real fear is that I just honestly don't have a ton of faith in this company to correct if they make a design mistake. They just leave stuff for years whether players like it or not. What we have now works really well to me, the gameplay preview in comparison was not very good - I hope it's just a matter of presentation, and that they will keep working on making it better before release.

Thanks for replying! I do feel a bit less apocalyptic about it ^^;

It's impossible to MInd Sprint be on because Naramon isn't even unlocked as a school:

and since they didn't covered other schools outside Unairu we don't know if Madurai and Zenurik had some waybound unbinded :/

Have you tried the Drifter? Drifter's roll it's an amazing new tool for movement in Operator gameplay, covers much more ground than the old slides and can be done in 4 directions with different otucomes (it's the same roll that warframes have). RIght now in tight corridors I just roll and works like a charm, plus the 75% resistance on rolls (and the future iFrames on roll like souls games makes it even more good).

We are ad portas to this implementation, I hope we can get the workshop thread soon :/

[DeeDeeLyla]

On 2022-03-22 at 4:50 PM, PollexMessier said:

Or make everything a waybound because why not.

That only works if there is a cap on the amount of pool for any given focus tree active, otherwise watch it become even more unbalanced / OP

 

On 2022-03-22 at 4:50 PM, PollexMessier said:

They're gonna piss off a lot of players if they nerf or remove energizing dash

I won't be one of those, I'm already using the Unairu tree pre-rework and I have Rage / Necramech Rage plus energy pizzas on keybind; the Zenurik dash became obsolete for me recently and I only still use it in places like The Index where you don't have as much access to alternatives.

I'll be more likely upset if they remove things like Unairu Wisp and such for Eidolon hunts, but then from looking at Devstream 160 it seems we will be able to upgrade our Sirocco at least so there's that, maybe whatever they remove from Focus trees for Eidolon hunts they will be able to make up for in OTHER areas which I'm actually strongly in favor of since it seems silly to be in some Catch 22 where you need Focus abilities to take down Eidolons but to get Focus in a timely manner you have to... grind Eidolons (thankfully there are at least other ways to farm focus even if they seem slower / happen to be capped)

On 2022-03-22 at 5:59 PM, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Better yet, buff one of the underused Status Procs into "energy generation" to challenge the Viral meta and give another school the ability to apply Viral procs in an Aura.

Operators, Warframes and Weapons aren't in a vacuum. DE wants them to be a holy trinity to the combat loop.

There are other forms of energy generation other than Zenurik, but the others require giving up a Warframe power, only work on a subset of Warframes, use up mod slots, require the player to participate in the Arcane grind or micromanaging build timers for pizzas.

My 2 cent ideas:

• Cold: Entropic Freeze: 
  • Reduces Movement Speed, Fire Rate, Attack Speed by 25% and emits a zone of energy for 6 seconds. Allies passing through zone gain 5 energy/sec for 12 seconds; does not stack with other energy zones (Energizing Dash). Subsequent procs increase slow by 5% to a cap of 70%.
• Magnetic: Disrupt: 
  • Amplifies damage dealt to shields by 100%, nullifies shield regeneration and pulls nearby enemies within 4.5m for 6 seconds. Stacks up to 10 times, with subsequent procs increasing damage to shields by 25% to a total of 325% and pull radius by 0.5m to a total of 9m.
• Virulent Dash: 
  • Void Dash creates a "Viral Zone" for 16 seconds. Enemies passing through the zone gain are afflicted by Virus and gain additional stacks of Virus for every 2 seconds inside.

 

 

WHAT ABOUT IMPACT??? Even in the current status quo (pun intended) Cold and Magnetic are both still somewhat more useful than Impact, which needs extra mods to be... turned into Slash.

On 2022-03-22 at 9:13 PM, vanaukas said:

We only have footage from someone that's not used to operator gameplay, in the right hands maybe that same kit could look better.

This 100%

[DeeDeeLyla]

On 2022-03-23 at 5:12 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Also, with access to Protea specters in all content except Nightmare

And The Index. And ESO.

On 2022-03-23 at 4:39 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

There will always be a most used school because there will always be people that just go along with the echo chamber. 

Yup. Meta slaves gonna meta slave. Tale as old as time.

[Joezone619]

I truly hope they make that a waybound power of some kind, even if its not as strong waybound, it would still negate the only reason people dont use other schools.

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, DeeDeeLyla said:

And The Index. And ESO.

Well yes, those too. But it isnt like Zenurik is required there either, nor that it works particularly well over other choices. In the case of Index you likely have a specific build in mind when you're gonna run it, which likely involves Dispensery or one of several other energy sustain option that the frames have access to if you need reliable energy. We just have so many options that nerfing a 5e/sec skill wont change much in the longrun except for the lazy people.

I dont think I have a single Index build where I could actually make use of Zenurik for any worthwhile effect, since they are either about carrying points which forces severe drain or they are based around a channeled skill, both of which negates energizing dash. It might have given me a few extra starting energy, but at that point you are better off slotting preperation.

And ESO is so dense that there should never be a shortage of energy.

[cute_moth.npc]

2 hours ago, vanaukas said:

It's impossible to MInd Sprint be on because Naramon isn't even unlocked as a school:

and since they didn't covered other schools outside Unairu we don't know if Madurai and Zenurik had some waybound unbinded :/

Have you tried the Drifter? Drifter's roll it's an amazing new tool for movement in Operator gameplay, covers much more ground than the old slides and can be done in 4 directions with different otucomes (it's the same roll that warframes have). RIght now in tight corridors I just roll and works like a charm, plus the 75% resistance on rolls (and the future iFrames on roll like souls games makes it even more good).

We are ad portas to this implementation, I hope we can get the workshop thread soon :/

I don't think it's impossible, during the preview when Rebecca is showing the new Inaros stuff for Unairu, Mind Sprint is unlocked and in her focus tree, activated. It was the only waybound she was using for the preview.

I haven't really tried the drifter, the character model is badly scaled to me and there is very little cosmetic selection so the aesthetics are not working for me. I like the roll though.

[Kokomala]

12 hours ago, Twin_Fawn said:

I don't think it's impossible, during the preview when Rebecca is showing the new Inaros stuff for Unairu, Mind Sprint is unlocked and in her focus tree, activated. It was the only waybound she was using for the preview.

I've made this comment a few times in the workshop thread - we have no idea if this was actually working or not. Despite being activated, the school it belongs to wasn't unlocked. The range demonstrated is roughly on par with the base void dash right now. Waybounds appear to have been removed in general from the schools as well, or at least completely renamed or reworked - nothing in Unairu suggested there was a waybound to unlock.

There is a possibility that waybounds may be rolled into the base operator by default, a parallel progression system, or something entirely different. Until we find out more info regarding, it is foolish to jump to conclusions regarding the small peek we received.

[Venus-Venera]

no! i dont need energy. arcane energize is way better. and heal is more important right now.

for new players it nice or ok. but its the best school!

[HelloItIsIJimbles]

On 2022-03-22 at 11:01 PM, ConzyFTW said:

people even use energizing dash? Arcane energize kind of trivilizes energy concerns 

I have maxed arcane energize and still use energizing dash and such. Late game there are some very energy hungry builds that are fun

[(PSN)headlock1_0]

Did we get confirmation of whether or not the focus points used to increase the “pool” capacity will be refunded when the rework goes live? I’ve tried to find something about this but found nothing. 

[Lutesque]

On 2022-03-26 at 4:04 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Synth Deconstruct from Venus bounties, Panzer Vulp precept from the pet and Equilibrium from uhm wherever we get that. Then top it off with synth fiber so you can always pick up health orbs. Same works for sentients/moas and any old weapon, just less reliable. And that is if you for some reason cannot get enough energy by just maximizing efficiency.

So I was lucky enough to have someone just give me the Nautilus Cerebrum and that allowed me to build The Verglas.... Modded it with Gas and Add Punchthrough and yes... This does Easily Sustain Energy...good enough for ESO with Saryn...

But Viral Quills ? I doubt this is actually Sustainable....

In any case I got my Panzer Kitty a while back so il try it too....

On 2022-03-26 at 4:04 PM, SneakyErvin said:

My main point though is that Zenurik is highly overrated because we have so many other options to manage and sustain our energy.

Not really.... Zenurik allows you to use whatever Companion you want....

You might not find value in that but other people obviously do...

 

[Pinegulf]

Free energy seems analogous to Izal's dash ability. Just follow the path taken: Just to add watered down version of energy to all schools. 

[Numerikuu]

8 hours ago, (PSN)headlock1_0 said:

Did we get confirmation of whether or not the focus points used to increase the “pool” capacity will be refunded when the rework goes live? I’ve tried to find something about this but found nothing. 

Zero clue I'm afraid. We'll either hear about it this Friday during the devstream, or later on this month when the update drops. Personally I've halted expanding my pool until then, just in case...

[Kaotyke]

2 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

Zero clue I'm afraid. We'll either hear about it this Friday during the devstream, or later on this month when the update drops. Personally I've halted expanding my pool until then, just in case...

We have to wonder where the points are going if they are refounded.

Ded we have an "Universal pool" when Focus 2.0 dropped? I dont remember.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, Lutesque said:

So I was lucky enough to have someone just give me the Nautilus Cerebrum and that allowed me to build The Verglas.... Modded it with Gas and Add Punchthrough and yes... This does Easily Sustain Energy...good enough for ESO with Saryn...

But Viral Quills ? I doubt this is actually Sustainable....

In any case I got my Panzer Kitty a while back so il try it too....

Not really.... Zenurik allows you to use whatever Companion you want....

You might not find value in that but other people obviously do...

 

Viral Quills are an insane generator of health orbs since it works practically like Spores. It just keeps rolling and rolling after the initial hit by you simply just killing. Which means more orbs than you need plus constant HoT from the DoT with Hunter Recovery aswell. In short the panzer is a better support frame than most support frames.

I dont see how Zenurik allowing you to pick other companions makes it less overrated. You dont even need Zenurik or Synth+Equilibrium combos in the first place, it was only a tip since you seem to struggle with energy management. Most of my frames live on efficiency and run of the mill orbs that grant 25 energy. And on the frames where that isnt enough, swapping to zenurik wouldnt help one bit, because those frames are using channeling skills, on those frames I live on efficiency plus the 25 orbs along with arcane energize. No flow, no zenurik, no equilibrium.

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Viral Quills are an insane generator of health orbs since it works practically like Spores. It just keeps rolling and rolling after the initial hit by you simply just killing. Which means more orbs than you need plus constant HoT from the DoT with Hunter Recovery aswell. In short the panzer is a better support frame than most support frames.

Like I said....

I will try it myself and see if this actually Holds Up....

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

I dont see how Zenurik allowing you to pick other companions makes it less overrated. You dont even need Zenurik or Synth+Equilibrium combos in the first place, it was only a tip since you seem to struggle with energy management. Most of my frames live on efficiency and run of the mill orbs that grant 25 energy. And on the frames where that isnt enough, swapping to zenurik wouldnt help one bit, because those frames are using channeling skills, on those frames I live on efficiency plus the 25 orbs along with arcane energize. No flow, no zenurik, no equilibrium.

You wouldn't happen to be using one of those Builds that doesn't have Vitality or Redirection Would you ?

Because that the only thing that would Explain how you can Mod for Efficiency.... 🤔

[Jackdarsan]

Is there any understanding if people that have already maxed their focus trees will have to earn more focus to complete the new trees? 

Just trying to figure out if the extra focus i have will be used up by the tree or can go towards this new focus shop :)

[-Vahagn-]

57 minutes ago, Jackdarsan said:

Just trying to figure out if the extra focus i have will be used up by the tree or can go towards this new focus shop :)

Np, they said all focus will be refunded when the rework hits. Allowing you to respec without losing the focus you already earned.