The focus rework and Zenurik

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

11 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

If energizing dash is nerfed (My prediction will be that it will regen energy faster, but only while the operator is active) then everyone will probably immediately go for naramon or even madurai if power spike is nerfed as well.

I just hope they get rid of the requirement for eidolon shards to unbind passives as that is pretty much the main limiter ive ran into myself. Mostly since i absolutely hate doing eidolons. 

We carry people all the time. All you have to do is show up and grab the loot when you see it floating in the air after it's captured.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

Orphix?

Or buying singular parts?

Both.

[Hypernaut1]

There will always be a most used school because there will always be people that just go along with the echo chamber. 

There's lots of ways to get tons of energy, zenurik was simply another option for that. 

[SneakyErvin]

Zenurik is a good option early on, that is about it, and it is pretty much made meaningless as soon as you get hold of a single Arcane Energize. It isnt like we dont have plenty of energy management options outside of Energizing Dash. Heck there are plenty of frames I run that have neither Energizing Dash or Arcane Energize and I never use PFlow or Equilibrium (well maybe I use Equi on one frame...) either, they are just built for maximized efficiency instead. 

Naramon and Vazarin are just far more useful to me. Naramon on the majority of the frames and then Vazarin on my Wukong (since he has no melee).

Also, with access to Protea specters in all content except Nightmare, I see even less point in using Zenurik. The tree is a hot turd outside of Energizing Dash and possibly Heavy Attack builds. And like I mentioned equilibrium, it is a very good option for energy sustain in this age of WF thanks to the access to pet mods and pets we have now from Fortuna and Deimos. Synth Decon+Synth Fiber+Equilibrium and you'll look like a fountain thanks to the energy bursting out of your ears and eye sockets.

[ReddyDisco]

I have my popcorn ready, this is promising to be a great show, update isn't even out yet and there are already 'concerned' threads

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

24 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

I have my popcorn ready, this is promising to be a great show, update isn't even out yet and there are already 'concerned' threads

Just wait till the dev workshop 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

14 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

They're gonna piss off a lot of players if they nerf or remove energizing dash (and to a lesser extent energy pulse). It would be a bad idea.

I think the best thing they could do is make energizing dash a waybound so it's no longer a limiting factor on what schools you use but still exists.

Or make everything a waybound because why not. We'd still have to make choices in what we do and don't want based on energy consumption of abilities.

I kinda hope they do remove or nerf it. As much as players here complain about the game being too easy, perhaps a little less power can keep them quiet for a while.

Jokes aside, I don't see them removing it but I definitely agree it can work as a way-bound type where it's hard earned but worth it. 

[Zeclem]

12 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Zenurik is mostly popular due to a mixture of propaganda/marketing, since people copy what they're told to do, and how insanely grindy maxing out one focus tree is for the average person, let alone multiple trees. If they started with Zenurik because they were told to, they're sticking with it for a long time regardless of whether it's useful to or not.

The free energy from Zenurik stops mattering at later stages in the game once you get additional options, and the fact it doesn't even function with some builds in the first place. Most people don't even use abilities often enough to warrant dedicating your focus tree to Zenurik.

There's going to always be 1-2 mostly used options regardless, people don't care about optimizing loadouts and go with what ever is the best 'generalist' option available, or what ever is marketed as the best, even if it isn't. The other options are for more specific play patterns, where as at least Zenurik offers the extra energy on orbs even for people who don't ever bother using Operator.

All that really matters is whether the other options offer something of value to those not interested on using the same copy/pasted playstyle for 99% of their playtime. Balancing solely around having options being popular would result in poor decisions being made on a game design level. Especially when you look at Warframes, where some of the lesser used options are vastly superior to popular options; or the fact DE had to over tune melee and heavy attacks because they're both largely ignored by the masses, despite being made easier to manage.

every focus school has alternatives outside of focus. dedicating your focus to energy regen and a wide array of cc that zenurik has its perfectly reasonable, especially when you compare it to alternative options.

when something is popular, it has a good reason of being popular. not just "people are lazy and/or dont know better".

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

Just wait till the dev workshop 

DE horror. The DEvbashing. The DEvs dont listen to the community. The DEA. The greEDy monsters. The wasted DEffort. DE PriDE and accomplishmEntD. DE DEath Threats. DE DdosE. DE leaving. DE quitting. DEDEDEDEDEDEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Spoiler

 

[Numerikuu]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

Just wait till the dev workshop 

I say bring it. Shake it up. I just hope this rework is better than the last one--especially now that we have the [spoiler]. The last attempt was... rather disappointing imo.

[Surbusken]

Probably planning to try to sweep the nerfs under the rug by announcing them close to something else, to try and drown the info.

I mean that didn't even work the first time lol.

 

[Lutesque]

7 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There will always be a most used school because there will always be people that just go along with the echo chamber. 

That really isn't what's happening here....

7 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There's lots of ways to get tons of energy, zenurik was simply another option for that. 

There really isn't....

Not for most players Anyway....

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Also, with access to Protea specters in all content except Nightmare, I see even less point in using Zenurik. The tree is a hot turd outside of Energizing Dash and possibly Heavy Attack builds. And like I mentioned equilibrium, it is a very good option for energy sustain in this age of WF thanks to the access to pet mods and pets we have now from Fortuna and Deimos. Synth Decon+Synth Fiber+Equilibrium and you'll look like a fountain thanks to the energy bursting out of your ears and eye sockets.

Yeah I'm going to Farm Nautilus and then we'll see if this is Actually True...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

25 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah I'm going to Farm Nautilus and then we'll see if this is Actually True...

I'm really not sure what you try to say there. What does Nautilus have to do with anything? I did pretty clearly point out "from Fortuna and Deimos", really not sure how you drew connections to Nautilus at all, which is a sentient locked behind RJ. If you dont know what I'm talking about feel free to ask instead of making assumptions.

[PollexMessier]

On 2022-03-22 at 8:05 PM, Yamazuki said:

Zenurik is mostly popular due to a mixture of propaganda/marketing, since people copy what they're told to do, and how insanely grindy maxing out one focus tree is for the average person, let alone multiple trees. If they started with Zenurik because they were told to, they're sticking with it for a long time regardless of whether it's useful to or not.

The free energy from Zenurik stops mattering at later stages in the game once you get additional options, and the fact it doesn't even function with some builds in the first place. Most people don't even use abilities often enough to warrant dedicating your focus tree to Zenurik.

There's going to always be 1-2 mostly used options regardless, people don't care about optimizing loadouts and go with what ever is the best 'generalist' option available, or what ever is marketed as the best, even if it isn't. The other options are for more specific play patterns, where as at least Zenurik offers the extra energy on orbs even for people who don't ever bother using Operator.

All that really matters is whether the other options offer something of value to those not interested on using the same copy/pasted playstyle for 99% of their playtime. Balancing solely around having options being popular would result in poor decisions being made on a game design level. Especially when you look at Warframes, where some of the lesser used options are vastly superior to popular options; or the fact DE had to over tune melee and heavy attacks because they're both largely ignored by the masses, despite being made easier to manage.

Players absolutely do use abilities a lot. and I really like popping energizing dash and then just not having to worry about energy for a while.

A lot of other energy regen options can't quite keep up sometimes or are inconsistent (energizing dash can't ether but you can use both), like "energy on damage to health" mods, or using arcane energize with energy pickups which... good luck farming that out. I literally never would've seen a maxed out one of those in my lifetime if not for scarlet spear. It's a helpful supplement when your other energy regen options just dont wanna work. Except energy pads. which are great, and work. But using them is kinda cumbersom unless you hotkey it and hoykeying gear on controllers is a massive pain because DE wont allow you to hotkey gear items into the "ability menu" even though half the buttons are empty. and I've had a lotta early players say pads aren't viable early because of polymer bundles or something.

But energizing dash and energy pulse are NOT the only thing zenurick has going for it. Temporal blast is incredibly useful. it works on demolysts, sanctuary targets, thumpers, and acolytes which *really* frees up what you can do in those circumstances.

The only other particularly useful (non-waybound) abilities in other schools that come to mind for me at all are unairu wisp which is mostly just good for eidolan hunts, the Naramon combo count one which is amazing... if you wanna bother with combo count at all which is really not necessary, and Unairu sundering dash which is useful like, specifically for plaguestar if you just hate sarpa.

[Yamazuki]

8 hours ago, Zeclem said:

every focus school has alternatives outside of focus. dedicating your focus to energy regen and a wide array of cc that zenurik has its perfectly reasonable, especially when you compare it to alternative options.

The cc requires actually using Operator. You also don't need Zenurik for CC on your Operator either.

The energy like I said is either wasted or not even accessible to some builds. We also know what Warframes people use. The most used Warframes are not Warframes that spam abilities to warrant the use of Zenurik, or generate energy naturally in their kits, or are using channeled abilities. Referenced below.

8 hours ago, Zeclem said:

when something is popular, it has a good reason of being popular. not just "people are lazy and/or dont know better".

When something is popular it is precisely because people are 'lazy' [casual]. 'Convenience' is a 'good reason'. It has already been shown that for Warframe, and games in general, people get their playstyles from content creators rather than figuring it out on their own. If people 'knew better', then SP would've been a breeze, Eidolons wouldn't be unpopular, Railjack ground enemies wouldn't need to be nerfed nor would Railjack in general, even consider Starchart had been made easier. Disruption is unpopular due to single target dps/cc check that people fail. The mainstream builds are all centered around clearing trash mobs.

There is more than just simple focus changes, but even functional changes. The changes are clearly about making Operator easier to use, and to encourage people to actually use them.

Being 'lazy' [causal] when it comes to a hobby that is meant to be 'fun' isn't even a bad thing. Games are meant to be for enjoyment and to pass time. It is absolutely normal that most people aren't going to put in what is considered an enormous effort to master a game, or sit there reading paragraph upon paragraph just to figure out how things work. This is why mainstream games are fairly simple to pick up. I'm not one that considers being casual to be a bad thing, or use it in an insulting manner.

1 minute ago, PollexMessier said:

Players absolutely do use abilities a lot. and I really like pooping energizing dash and then just not having to worry about energy for a while.

You mean, you do. If we're going by personal experience, I pug almost every single run for years, I can see ally energy bars, and they stay full. Abilities are redundant in the current era of BOOM AOE spam anyways. People complain about bullet sponges which only exist when abilities aren't used or sub-optimal loadout. Most popular Warframes don't really use abilities but serve as a weapons transport platform or are duration based.

6 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

A lot of other energy regen options can't quite keep up sometimes or are inconsistent (energizing dash can't ether but you can use both), like "energy on damage to health" mods, or using arcane energize with energy pickups which... good luck farming that out.

Feel free to explain to me how the following are energy intensive: Wukong, Wisp Mote Bot, Excalibur, Inaros.

Feel free to explain to me how the following do not generate enough energy on their own to sustain their relevant abilities: Nekros, Khora, Octavia

Also, feel free to explain how Zenurik improves channeled abilities.

If you have to ask why the above, then you're not focusing on how most people play the game. I never said 'no one spams abilities'. I have my own meme spam builds and aoe deletions for SO/ESO when I help someone. Although, I am specifically talking about the mainstream audience. Just look at how these Warframes make up a significant portion of the usage statistics.

People use Zenurik even when they have a channeled ability or aren't using much energy, and I already went into why. People with excessive play times, or optimizing their grind forget that this isn't how most people even play the game. Without Eidolons or going out of your way to quickly cap focus, it takes a long time to fully go through a tree. One of the changes is getting rid of spending focus on increasing the pool in order to level up anything and use it. Which would hopefully mean an overall reduction in the grind with no increase elsewhere. I maxed everything ages ago, but I don't share the viewpoint that grinds I went through should never be adjusted when it's excessive for the average.

[-Vahagn-]

14 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

I have my popcorn ready, this is promising to be a great show, update isn't even out yet and there are already 'concerned' threads

And what's wrong with "concerned" threads? I am more so wondering than actually worried.

 

So its illegal to discuss future updates here? Even though I assumed that is what the forum is for. 

Really that desperate to eat popcorn eh?

13 hours ago, Zeclem said:

when something is popular, it has a good reason of being popular. not just "people are lazy and/or dont know better".

Yet from what I've seen people who first get access to focus schools often don't know better.

[ReddyDisco]

27 minutes ago, WH1735S0W said:

And what's wrong with "concerned" threads? I am more so wondering than actually worried.

 

So its illegal to discuss future updates here? Even though I assumed that is what the forum is for. 

Really that desperate to eat popcorn eh?

Never said it isn't allowed to be paranoid, i just find it amusing.

popcorn is good, caramel flavor is my personal fav 

[-Vahagn-]

14 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

Never said it isn't allowed to be paranoid, i just find it amusing.

popcorn is good, caramel flavor is my personal fav 

OK fine

 

Gimme some

[vanaukas]

57 minutes ago, WH1735S0W said:

And what's wrong with "concerned" threads? I am more so wondering than actually worried.

So its illegal to discuss future updates here? Even though I assumed that is what the forum is for. 

Not a quote for me but I think is totally legit getting worried about changes, but conclusions/supossitions and more should be funded on facts, in this case the future dev workshop, which still doesn't exists.

Dunno about your activity here, but I think most users are kinda fed up with doom and gloom threads about stuff that isn't implemented or we don't have info on to discuss properly yet. Workshop is the first step towards elaborated discussions, concerns, arguments and everything, for now we just have a proof of concept.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

1 hour ago, vanaukas said:

Not a quote for me but I think is totally legit getting worried about changes, but conclusions/supossitions and more should be funded on facts, in this case the future dev workshop, which still doesn't exists.

Dunno about your activity here, but I think most users are kinda fed up with doom and gloom threads about stuff that isn't implemented or we don't have info on to discuss properly yet. Workshop is the first step towards elaborated discussions, concerns, arguments and everything, for now we just have a proof of concept.

I don't consider that display during the devstream 'proof of concept' at all. it's more like scribble on the white board. Lots of it are going to be erased. Then added more stuff to the existing ones. I can see it now. Focus School: The Mod Version.

[vanaukas]

1 hour ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

I don't consider that display during the devstream 'proof of concept' at all. it's more like scribble on the white board. Lots of it are going to be erased. Then added more stuff to the existing ones. I can see it now. Focus School: The Mod Version.

A proof of concept is a bareboens gameplay with base stuff to show what you want to do. It's also known as "vertical slice".

[Lutesque]

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm really not sure what you try to say there. What does Nautilus have to do with anything? I did pretty clearly point out "from Fortuna and Deimos", really not sure how you drew connections to Nautilus at all, which is a sentient locked behind RJ. If you dont know what I'm talking about feel free to ask instead of making assumptions.

It's so I can get the Verglas Rifle and Mod it for Gas....

 

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It's so I can get the Verglas Rifle and Mod it for Gas....

But... like... why? A kinda pointless grind when you can get both Helstrum or Cryotra for no effort at all. I mean, if you are after the highest damage for your sentinel sure, but it isnt needed in order to get constant health orbs, which is the main goal here. And that is if you decide to use a sentinel instead of the superior easy to get choices from Deimos that keep synth procs even more common since you help spread the pet "hits" aswell among the enemies.

[Numerikuu]

3 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It's so I can get the Verglas Rifle and Mod it for Gas....

Better off doing Viral/Heat, or Radiation if you want some CC.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But... like... why?

Slap it on a Dethcube with Energy Generator 👌😉

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But... like... why? A kinda pointless grind when you can get both Helstrum or Cryotra for no effort at all.

Verglas is Better....

Like I said.... If I'm going to confirm if what you said is Actually Practical.... It needs to have the best chance of Succeeding.... 

I thinking maybe Gas and Electric since both those Status Effects have an AoE Component....

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean, if you are after the highest damage for your sentinel sure, but it isnt needed in order to get constant health orbs, which is the main goal here.

Yeah I know.... The goal is to tag Enemies for Assists..... In my Experience on this Account Heltrum's Slow Project Speed often means I'm killing the Enemies looooooong before me Sentinal can tag them...

 

Cryotra is just a Worse Verglas so I might as well just get Verglas...... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You don't have to worry.... All I need is the Cerebrum and we're good 👍

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And that is if you decide to use a sentinel instead of the superior easy to get choices from Deimos that keep synth procs even more common since you help spread the pet "hits" aswell among the enemies.

Which mod ?

The Pressure One from ? 🤔

I'm not sure I understand this specific part....