The focus rework and Zenurik

[-Vahagn-]

The focus rework looks good, but I am still worried that Zenurik will be most used because it gives free energy.

 

Unless they are changing how its free energy works.

[Kaotyke]

We wait. We lurk. We buy popcorn.

Most importantly, we---

[vanaukas]

53 minutes ago, WH1735S0W said:

The focus rework looks good, but I am still worried that Zenurik will be most used because it gives free energy.

 

Unless they are changing how its free energy works.

show me where devs already shown zenurik changes, please, becasue AFAIK no one knows what's actually changing since even Unairu (the only school shown on devstream) was in PH state.

So, we don't know how the focus rework looks, we don't know what school will be more used and we don't know how "free energy" will work after the rework.

[PollexMessier]

57 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

show me where devs already shown zenurik changes, please, becasue AFAIK no one knows what's actually changing since even Unairu (the only school shown on devstream) was in PH state.

So, we don't know how the focus rework looks, we don't know what school will be more used and we don't know how "free energy" will work after the rework.

They're gonna piss off a lot of players if they nerf or remove energizing dash (and to a lesser extent energy pulse). It would be a bad idea.

I think the best thing they could do is make energizing dash a waybound so it's no longer a limiting factor on what schools you use but still exists.

Or make everything a waybound because why not. We'd still have to make choices in what we do and don't want based on energy consumption of abilities.

[BiancaRoughfin]

2 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

The focus rework looks good, but I am still worried that Zenurik will be most used because it gives free energy.

Isnt this post about 7~8 years late? Its already the most used because of free energy.

[cute_moth.npc]

I don't know? Energy is a big thing ^^

We don't know what the other trees look like but Unairu isn't looking very strong so Zenurik would have to be ruined completely for Unairu to stand a chance.

It has primed sure footed in egg timer form. This part is definitely at least worth looking at maybe for some players that don't have it yet, the way it affects the operator as well is nice but I would personally like to skip the egg timer gameplay.

The entire left hand side of the pool is "Inaros" which personally to me is basically the same as "the entire left hand side of Unairu is as useless as Inaros is"

I would take almost anything else first.. Crowd control, movement, damage, support, energy, flowers blooming on Crits.. It's just too easy to not die. If the other pools have something even a little bit relevant to "not dying in the first place" then that makes the new Unairu even less relevant for me.

As a Unairu player, I'd take the current group stealth and damage reduction over the Inaros stuff.

Maybe the other trees will fare better than Unairu. Or, maybe Zenurik will be sent to hell? Let's find out soon ^^

[YUNoJump]

If they insist on keeping a "grant energy to Warframes" ability, it should be available to every tree. At least as a Waybound, preferably as just something every tree can get on their own. Free energy is too powerful for any other sensible option to compete with it on other trees. Focus has been totally dominated by Zenurik's free energy since day 1, if DE is serious about this rework it needs to change.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

5 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

If they insist on keeping a "grant energy to Warframes" ability, it should be available to every tree. At least as a Waybound, preferably as just something every tree can get on their own. Free energy is too powerful for any other sensible option to compete with it on other trees. Focus has been totally dominated by Zenurik's free energy since day 1, if DE is serious about this rework it needs to change.

Better yet, buff one of the underused Status Procs into "energy generation" to challenge the Viral meta and give another school the ability to apply Viral procs in an Aura.

Operators, Warframes and Weapons aren't in a vacuum. DE wants them to be a holy trinity to the combat loop.

There are other forms of energy generation other than Zenurik, but the others require giving up a Warframe power, only work on a subset of Warframes, use up mod slots, require the player to participate in the Arcane grind or micromanaging build timers for pizzas.

My 2 cent ideas:

• Cold: Entropic Freeze: 
  • Reduces Movement Speed, Fire Rate, Attack Speed by 25% and emits a zone of energy for 6 seconds. Allies passing through zone gain 5 energy/sec for 12 seconds; does not stack with other energy zones (Energizing Dash). Subsequent procs increase slow by 5% to a cap of 70%.
• Magnetic: Disrupt: 
  • Amplifies damage dealt to shields by 100%, nullifies shield regeneration and pulls nearby enemies within 4.5m for 6 seconds. Stacks up to 10 times, with subsequent procs increasing damage to shields by 25% to a total of 325% and pull radius by 0.5m to a total of 9m.
• Virulent Dash: 
  • Void Dash creates a "Viral Zone" for 16 seconds. Enemies passing through the zone gain are afflicted by Virus and gain additional stacks of Virus for every 2 seconds inside.

 

 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Is the list of changes already out? I don't see it

[vanaukas]

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

They're gonna piss off a lot of players if they nerf or remove energizing dash (and to a lesser extent energy pulse). It would be a bad idea.

I think the best thing they could do is make energizing dash a waybound so it's no longer a limiting factor on what schools you use but still exists.

Or make everything a waybound because why not. We'd still have to make choices in what we do and don't want based on energy consumption of abilities.

I think we should be able to customize "our" personal focus school.

Imagine if you have an empty school with slots for each ability. Some of those slots should mutually exclusive (like serration with amalgam serration), but you could mix stuff from all schools to  reate your own unique gameplay. So, let's say zenurik void dash does exactly the same as now (pushing enemies far away, doing the electric ball, giving energy), but what if you could mix that energy trait with "no enemy pushing" or more void dash radius (taking naramon as example). That way you still have the energy, but you'll lack something from the school.

Of course the "mutually exclusive" should aim for uniqueness and balance. So, for example, if you choose zenurik energy, you can't have vazarin invulnerability or unairu armor strip at the same time.

For this to work, schools should have a bonus for using the whole school (since those energy drain abilities are apparently gone) and the "custom school" shouldn't have any bonus outside the whole customization capabilities that the operator is lacking right now. 

This is a really old idea I've submitted years ago and I still think it's a good one in all seriousness. 

[cute_moth.npc]

40 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

I think we should be able to customize "our" personal focus school.

Imagine if you have an empty school with slots for each ability. Some of those slots should mutually exclusive (like serration with amalgam serration), but you could mix stuff from all schools to  reate your own unique gameplay. So, let's say zenurik void dash does exactly the same as now (pushing enemies far away, doing the electric ball, giving energy), but what if you could mix that energy trait with "no enemy pushing" or more void dash radius (taking naramon as example). That way you still have the energy, but you'll lack something from the school.

Of course the "mutually exclusive" should aim for uniqueness and balance. So, for example, if you choose zenurik energy, you can't have vazarin invulnerability or unairu armor strip at the same time.

For this to work, schools should have a bonus for using the whole school (since those energy drain abilities are apparently gone) and the "custom school" shouldn't have any bonus outside the whole customization capabilities that the operator is lacking right now. 

This is a really old idea I've submitted years ago and I still think it's a good one in all seriousness. 

If I could just make an operator with Unairu wisp, protective dash, temporal blast, void shadow and void strike that would be sort of a scary dream team

[vanaukas]

6 minutes ago, Twin_Fawn said:

If I could just make an operator with Unairu wisp, protective dash, temporal blast, void shadow and void strike that would be sort of a scary dream team

That is one example on why they maybe didn't wanted to do something like that with the old school system.

I'm trying to keep my hopes as low as possible but I won't denny I'm excited as hell regardless, 5 or 6 years without chanegs on the core system for operators ending this soonish got me really crazy. I was even thinking on making a video to remember this old playstyle, but also I don't know what to show since I don't like endurance runs anymore  and the other modes are too mundane to show. Or maybe it's just mee too used to the operator gameplay so everything seems "common" or mundane.

[cute_moth.npc]

26 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

That is one example on why they maybe didn't wanted to do something like that with the old school system.

I'm trying to keep my hopes as low as possible but I won't denny I'm excited as hell regardless, 5 or 6 years without chanegs on the core system for operators ending this soonish got me really crazy. I was even thinking on making a video to remember this old playstyle, but also I don't know what to show since I don't like endurance runs anymore  and the other modes are too mundane to show. Or maybe it's just mee too used to the operator gameplay so everything seems "common" or mundane.

It's weird because I am totally aware of how much you like operator and I also like your opinions so I guess I'd like to ask you about void dash?

For me it's that operator has so little health, and I just play with the fastest crowd control playstyle I can to overcome enemies and own my space. I can't see the new one being as fun or effective to do when it's not as responsive, it doesn't seem like you can move backwards and there's a lag time to every move now? With the new void dash I feel like it's sort of not good to remove an advantage and that's one of the small actual reasons to even consider operator combat. I am open though, what do you think it will bring that's positive?

[Yamazuki]

Zenurik is mostly popular due to a mixture of propaganda/marketing, since people copy what they're told to do, and how insanely grindy maxing out one focus tree is for the average person, let alone multiple trees. If they started with Zenurik because they were told to, they're sticking with it for a long time regardless of whether it's useful to or not.

The free energy from Zenurik stops mattering at later stages in the game once you get additional options, and the fact it doesn't even function with some builds in the first place. Most people don't even use abilities often enough to warrant dedicating your focus tree to Zenurik.

There's going to always be 1-2 mostly used options regardless, people don't care about optimizing loadouts and go with what ever is the best 'generalist' option available, or what ever is marketed as the best, even if it isn't. The other options are for more specific play patterns, where as at least Zenurik offers the extra energy on orbs even for people who don't ever bother using Operator.

All that really matters is whether the other options offer something of value to those not interested on using the same copy/pasted playstyle for 99% of their playtime. Balancing solely around having options being popular would result in poor decisions being made on a game design level. Especially when you look at Warframes, where some of the lesser used options are vastly superior to popular options; or the fact DE had to over tune melee and heavy attacks because they're both largely ignored by the masses, despite being made easier to manage.

[trst]

We can only hope that DE does the right thing and nuke Zenurik's free energy.

The entire energy system needs a rework and part of that needs to be removing energizing dash. If they want to keep an energy ability tied to it at least make it something interesting like bonus efficiency that can exceed the current cap. But the system needs to not be so binary where you either never have any/enough or you can forget it's even a resource.

[vanaukas]

39 minutes ago, Twin_Fawn said:

It's weird because I am totally aware of how much you like operator and I also like your opinions so I guess I'd like to ask you about void dash?

For me it's that operator has so little health, and I just play with the fastest crowd control playstyle I can to overcome enemies and own my space. I can't see the new one being as fun or effective to do when it's not as responsive, it doesn't seem like you can move backwards and there's a lag time to every move now? With the new void dash I feel like it's sort of not good to remove an advantage and that's one of the small actual reasons to even consider operator combat. I am open though, what do you think it will bring that's positive?

Aw, thank you, I feel flattered!

About void dash, I have mixed feelings, I'm gonna try to explain it (brace yourself):

- Old void dash without customizations is slow, short and expensive as hell, eerily similar to the one that was shown on devstream. All of that makes it very similar to current bullet jump of warframes, but multidirectional. Without naramon augments you can, in fact, use a lot of verticallity to avoid dealing with enemies and do quite impressive stuff (stuff that I always miss that much that sometiems I just take off the Naramon waybound).

- New void dash was shown with only unairu active, every other school was locked IIRC (or at least a lot of them).

- Old void dash maxed out is fast, long and "spammable" (with the right schools or arcanes), but also unrelliable due how the "out of bounds" mechanics on warframe works. You wan't to use that empty vertical space? Too bad, there is a invisible "out of bounds wall" over there, enjoy your black screen. This is so inconsistent that I started to aim directly to walls and ended up giving up the whole "look at me I'm an annoying fly" gameplay without naramon upgrade. It's not the void dash itself the issue on this particular case, but how out of bounds mechanics works and where those limits are on tilesets.

- Even without going to black screens, current maxed out void dash it's a nightmare to use on places like Deimos or Eris. Not only due narrow corridors but due tendrils coming out of nowhere that you'll clip into quite frequently, needing "usntuck" to be used most of the times. Those are extreme examples, but most if not all nodes and tilesets have their "quirks" that you get used to while doing void dash.

- I understand the fact that Rebbeca tries really hard to play cool and good but she obviously doesn't know how to take advantage of the operator. I don't even know if the lack of backwards dashes were because they removed it or because she didn't used it. I'm saying this because it's somehting important to consider: We only have footage from someone that's not used to operator gameplay, in the right hands maybe that same kit could look better.

- The telegraphed new void dash looks amazing for me. It may need some tweaks (and I genuinelly hope they are willing to take on our feedback for this), because now you have full controll of that ability. For me that's really  important but I do understand why people is going mad on it, since their main purpose of using the operator is "going fast" or dashing to get some ability (energy, invulnerability, finishers, etc). I also understnd that my tastes are in the niche of niches, enjoying operator gameplay is so unreal for some people that I don't blame them for not using it or getting mad over the possible changes. I wish we could find a common place to live on, with more control over the ability and going fast as we do now.

About this, I've suggested in the past keeping the distance of the regular void dash, but giving the speed of the current maxed out void dash + more dashes to have similar outputs on how much you can travel spamming void dash. That way you gain control, no one looses speed and everything keeps the same regarding void dash.

-What are the pro's of the new thing that was shown imo?

•  Potentially better with upgrades 
•  Full control
•  Real momentum to mess with physics
•  Beautiful to see, NGL (Looks as cool as Blink Token from Remnant)

What are the cons?

•  Potentially slow even with upgrades
•  Slow input to choose where you want to go

What's my stance on this? I'm waiting for the full workshop reveal about the rework and also after that, I'm gonna wait until I can laid my hands on the whole kit, since sometimes the playerbase reacts negativelly to future implementations on workshop, only to later try it and then praising it (Like Helminth, Invigorations, some Augments, some Weapons, Liches/sisters changes, and a veyr large list). Sometimes we, players, nails it perfectly and sometimes we are totally wrong.

Sorry the long blabbering, but I'm now asking you your opinion on this. What are you expecting? What are your fears? Do oyu have some secret wish about operators that you want it implemented? For the last part, I wanted operator melees but that's out of discussion apparently :/

 

[0_The_F00l]

I will wait until the actual workshop is out before commenting.

Zenurik as of now does most things you would want from a utility perspective. 

It gives steady amount of energy both to operator and warframe (bonus regen on getting energy orb as well) ,

can crowd control through 3 ways (temporal blast , electric stun , pull) and crowd control is a valid means to extending survivability .

And effectively lets you dash further due to the energy regen ,so increases mobility potential as well.

Pair that with some arcanes and waybounds and you have a full package.

Personally I would like for other schools to be competitive (madurai is something I love to use but is outclassed by zenurik).

I am looking forward to the changes even if they greatly change the whole setup.

[ConzyFTW]

people even use energizing dash? Arcane energize kind of trivilizes energy concerns 

 

[Lutesque]

6 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Unless they are changing how its free energy works.

If Zenurik manages to survive this Rework unscathed I will be shocked....

Either way I'm saving up for Arcane Energize...👀

6 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

The focus rework looks good, but I am still worried that Zenurik will be most used because it gives free energy.

Actually I'm willing to bet Focus is going to Diversify for a few months thus DE will think it's a success.... But after that things will definitely go right back to Zenurik....

Seriously.... I've been trying to make this new Account Work and without Zenurik it's extremely Frustrating.... I can't even do ESO because I don't actually have a way of getting my energy back since Simaris Disables my Gear Items....

I don't know what the Early results of the Focus Rework will be.... But I know a few months After that Zenurik will be back on top....

4 hours ago, Twin_Fawn said:

The entire left hand side of the pool is "Inaros" which personally to me is basically the same as "the entire left hand side of Unairu is as useless as Inaros is"

Atleast Inaros is salvageable using the Helminth System.... Operators don't have that luxury... 👀

 

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, ConzyFTW said:

people even use energizing dash? Arcane energize kind of trivilizes energy concerns 

 

Arcane Energize also costs 1000 Platinum 😱

[Numerikuu]

3 hours ago, ConzyFTW said:

people even use energizing dash? Arcane energize kind of trivilizes energy concerns 

 

A maxed out energize costs over 1.5k plat my dude. Not everyone has that sort of plat or money laying around 😉 That being said, you don't need a maxed out one for it to be effective enough to replace Zenurik. If you can afford it, or feel like living out your life in the Plains for months on end farming Eidolons, then defo nab a rank 2-3 AE later on.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

46 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Arcane Energize also costs 1000 Platinum 😱

Which can easily be farmed in a week or two casually. 

I made 1400 in a week and a half.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

38 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Which can easily be farmed in a week or two casually. 

Orphix?

Or buying singular parts?

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

From what i gather from dev stream enrgey dash is going to be removed from zenurik and be given to abilities that you slot in your operator to modify your dash, void mode , pulse etc. Which im fine if that's that case cause enrgey dash is good enough energy on demand that i could move away from zenurik and try out other trees

[Vahenir]

If energizing dash is nerfed (My prediction will be that it will regen energy faster, but only while the operator is active) then everyone will probably immediately go for naramon or even madurai if power spike is nerfed as well.

I just hope they get rid of the requirement for eidolon shards to unbind passives as that is pretty much the main limiter ive ran into myself. Mostly since i absolutely hate doing eidolons.