The impact AoE nerf could have

[Silligoose]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

Scenario 1: LoS Requirement 

If AoE get a line of sight requirement we will not be able to speedrun capture or exterminate mission as fast as we usually do. It could hurt Adaro stealth level farm but not as bad as eximus change did. Our overall kills per minute will be reduced. 

Scenario 2: Damage Nerf 

If this happen we most likely will shift back to a melee gameplay for endurance runs because single target weapons are not that great. The only redeemable single target guns are phenmor and laetum (ik it have a small AoE but I do not count that as AoE). There are other good single target guns but they can't kill a group fast. A damage nerf will massively affect hydroid because it will be almost impossible to hit the enemies in tentacle swarm without AoE and if the damage get nerf it will take longer to kill those enemies. If we get a nerf to damage we will need a buff to single target weapons. One buff that will help is increasing the duration of merciless to make it easier and faster to stack. Damage nerf will have the greatest impact on the game.

The current damage meta and associated AoE meta renders the vast majority of mechanics pertaining to both offense and defence, such as evasive movement, decent aim, hitting enemy weakspots, use of warframe enemy debuffs, warframe damage buffs, varied status applications, use of varied damage types, single target weapons and cc, obsolete within the vast majority of encouraged missions, including SP. Mechanics or assets that render the vast majority of other mechanics or assets obsolete, are overpowered. They hurt balance, game diversity, depth and overall player satisfaction.

Personally I would like to see a nerf to radial AoE damage. I do not agree with the assessment that single target weapons are not great, as a number of single target weapons have great DPS potential and serve well in endurance runs. I also consider their power to be too great within encouraged play and would prefer to see the bonusses from Weapon Arcanes and Galvanized mods, be reduced.

Edit: Concerning Hydroid: A nerf to radial AoE damage would actually make cc abilities such as Hydroids tentacles more appealing in my opinion, as they incapacitate enemies and as such, even if radial AoE fails to kill enemies to the degree they do now, players are safe despite certain enemies surviving.

[Numerikuu]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Won't someone think of the Hydroids???

As a Hydroid main their argument is weak 🥴 if there's anything still alive in his tentacles I toss the Scourge down then pull out the sidearm. Either that or beyblade through them with the Wolf Sledge 😙

[Berzerkules]

LoS check is total garbage if you actually play anything that uses it. DE should really get that sorted out before they apply it to anything else. 

[trst]

If done properly the actual impact would be improving the overall game health and be a step towards restoring co-op to the game.

Also it should be adding LOS checks, damage nerf, and enemy counter mechanics all at once. That would be an actual AOE nerf that might accomplish something.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000:

Scenario 1: LoS Requirement 

If AoE get a line of sight requirement we will not be able to speedrun capture or exterminate mission as fast as we usually do. It could hurt Adaro stealth level farm but not as bad as eximus change did. Our overall kills per minute will be reduced. 

Scenario 2: Damage Nerf 

If this happen we most likely will shift back to a melee gameplay for endurance runs because single target weapons are not that great. The only redeemable single target guns are phenmor and laetum (ik it have a small AoE but I do not count that as AoE). There are other good single target guns but they can't kill a group fast. A damage nerf will massively affect hydroid because it will be almost impossible to hit the enemies in tentacle swarm without AoE and if the damage get nerf it will take longer to kill those enemies. If we get a nerf to damage we will need a buff to single target weapons. One buff that will help is increasing the duration of merciless to make it easier and faster to stack. Damage nerf will have the greatest impact on the game.

I have so many keys that I have to play captures 24/7 for 3+ months.
if i played surv, it would even be 6-9 months!!!

but you want everything to go super slow? for what purpose?!?!?!?! because there are super awesome rewards in capture and ext??!?!?!?!?!

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Berzerkules:

LoS check is total garbage if you actually play anything that uses it. DE should really get that sorted out before they apply it to anything else. 

That's also the reason why I've only seen normal khora once in the last 2 years. and I play every day.
first skill became absolutely meaningless because of this nonsense. and earlier I even had it on the right mouse button.

[BDMblue]

They could also just take mods away from AOE. Remove all multishot and set mods/ bonuses. Or just make them a new class of weapon and make mods just for them. Restricted like archwing weapons are.

[stormy505]

4 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

Many of them are more than fine in the damage department

That's not the issue with single target weapons. It's the lack of punch through in a horde shooter at the minimum. Even if every single target one shot every enemy they would still be weaker than aoe weapon, frames, melee etc. Because clicking every single enemy in a mission where you often kill hundreds upon hundreds of enemies per mission slows it down a ton.

Depends on how many things get nerfed with the aoe nerf I probably won't care because a new meta that's slightly slower will show up.

Although the logic behind wanting the grind to take LONGER in Warframe is insane, DE tends to listen to the whiners even if they don't make sense so y'all will get what you want.

If eventually single target weapons became the meta I'm sure y'all would find a reason to babyrage about them too.

[(XBOX)UltraMagnus5000]

5 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

Shows you've barely used single target weapons in that case if you only think the Phenmor and Laetum are the only useful ones.

As for Hydroid, once again, it shows you've not tried much besides the meta. Wolf Sledge? Glaives? Scourge? Melee slam/heavy attacks? Hell, the Operator?

As for buffing single target weapons, yeah, no. Many of them are more than fine in the damage department. It's just that for some reason those who cling to their meta AoE weapons recoil at the mere thought of using something that can't clear a room and beyond with one click.

You know glaive and wolf sledge will still be consider AoE right? Also you mention I do not use anything but the meta but you recommend glaive when glaive prime is meta. They make an explosion. And for scourge, yes it activates a bullet attractor but you drastically lowering your damage output as when it comes to secondary weapons barely any of the are good compare to primary. You will have far less options for secondary even the best pistol will still be overshadow by the 50th best primary. Also the operator is barely going to make a scratch without madurai or unairu if you doing sortie or SP. Yes single target weapons are good when it comes to damage but with mass herd of enemies that this game have, AoE is just superior especially if you play Steel Path survival, disruption (Idk about this one sometimes there not much enemies and sometimes there are), and cascade like me. If it was any other game I would use single target weapons as other games have AoE do self-damage or make it somewhat limited to certain missions.

[Berzerkules]

34 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

That's also the reason why I've only seen normal khora once in the last 2 years. and I play every day.
first skill became absolutely meaningless because of this nonsense. and earlier I even had it on the right mouse button.

I used to "main" khora right up until they added LoS check to her one. She's still OP but you waste energy and just miss enemies regularly. I forgot how bad it was until I maxed out khora prime adding a bunch of forma a couple days ago. 

It's a shame, her dps is insane and DE chose the worst possible way of dealing with it. They should be able to balance a frame without applying broken mechanics that do nothing to address the actual problem. 

They will probably do the same thing to aoe weapons and neglect the fact that the game is designed to kill as many enemies as quick as possible to overcome ridiculously low drop rates to ease the grind against stupid low lvl enemies. It will just slow down the grind and make the game more tedious until the next best thing comes around then they start again.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

17 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

That's not the issue with single target weapons. It's the lack of punch through in a horde shooter at the minimum. Even if every single target one shot every enemy they would still be weaker than aoe weapon, frames, melee etc. Because clicking every single enemy in a mission where you often kill hundreds upon hundreds of enemies per mission slows it down a ton.

Depends on how many things get nerfed with the aoe nerf I probably won't care because a new meta that's slightly slower will show up.

Although the logic behind wanting the grind to take LONGER in Warframe is insane, DE tends to listen to the whiners even if they don't make sense so y'all will get what you want.

If eventually single target weapons became the meta I'm sure y'all would find a reason to babyrage about them too.

There is no issue with punch through either.

The regular starchart has the weakest spawns ever. Even with AOE you can still lose life support because they literally don't spawn fast enough. 

Frames buff allies for a reason.

Solo players shouldn't expect to use single target alone and wipe the floor with everything.

[-Runn_Jegu-]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Silver1593 said:

Some player dont have 10 min for a exterminate mission because they forcing us to use single t . Just leave aoe alone . Its 2022 and not 2013 

Meanwhile, Titania's having a good old giggle reading this, sitting at extraction, waiting on her teammates, 1 min 30 and counting.

[mycroft_]

2 hours ago, BDMblue said:

They could also just take mods away from AOE. Remove all multishot and set mods/ bonuses. Or just make them a new class of weapon and make mods just for them. Restricted like archwing weapons are.

That's a great idea.

Ammo Mutation is especially a problem, just getting rid of that for explosive weapons would go a long way toward fixing this.

[cute_moth.npc]

They would have to nerf AoE so insanely far to keep it from being the top pick.

I don't personally think it needs to be kept from being the top pick anyways. It just needs to get scaled back enough that there's some reasonable variety again and maybe set up so that it's still very viable without being so over the top that almost nothing actually lives long enough to make it out of the spawn rooms ^^;

[Mag_Gaming]

Deja vu... how many more? Hahahah

 

I really like this comment I made sumarizing the whole AoE nerfs thing I think it´s really accurate.

Here you go.

 

[DrivaMain]

The impact of AoE weapon nerf? We'll go back from "Nerf AoE weapons" to "Nerf Nuke Frames and Melee". Just like the old days.

[AegidiusF]

I was very surprised when I heard about that Marcus comment on Reddit saying that DE is going to compile and review comments and feedback about AoE to plan for ways to adress concerns.

As now Pablo has more responsabilities on the game developpement and about buffs and nerfs, I don't really think he will do a big nerf. Pablo himself knows that Warframe is a multi target game and AoE are multi target weapons. On Tennocon 2022, he openly said that Warframe is not a single target game (when talking about warframe reworks and why some abilities are less popular than others - linkbelow). I totally agree with Pablo : Warframe is multi target, so it's normal that AoE and others multi target weapons and abilities are more popular than single target weapons. AoE is not the problem at all. The problem is that single target weapons and abilities do not fit the game's current development status. Nerfing AoE is useless : buffing single target would be better, but would also be insufficient. It's impossible to change this "AoE meta" without changing the game itself. Perhaps, one possibility is to create some game modes where single target weapons would perform better than multi target weapons, but I can barely think how this would be...

 

 

[Shaden73]

I Think AOE weapons need their own category and their own mods like how Rifles and shotguns have. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Berzerkules:

I used to "main" khora right up until they added LoS check to her one. She's still OP but you waste energy and just miss enemies regularly. I forgot how bad it was until I maxed out khora prime adding a bunch of forma a couple days ago. 

It's a shame, her dps is insane and DE chose the worst possible way of dealing with it. They should be able to balance a frame without applying broken mechanics that do nothing to address the actual problem. 

They will probably do the same thing to aoe weapons and neglect the fact that the game is designed to kill as many enemies as quick as possible to overcome ridiculously low drop rates to ease the grind against stupid low lvl enemies. It will just slow down the grind and make the game more tedious until the next best thing comes around then they start again.

Yes. the enemies become boring over time and are not challenging. if i want action, then i play something like pvp shooter. loot without boosters can be forgotten. and without sp, hardly any rare resources drop. because that takes forever and new players need way too much of it. there are also endless waiting times during construction.
so I don't see any sense in programming such nonsense with los. Also, I think it's totally bugged. I would even have to spam the skill 3 times on normal, because some small object is blocking the enemies. and soon i don't have enough energy.... but then i have to laugh because even ignis wrath does the job much better!
high overkill damage is also available without high energy consumption. there is this mele warframe. believe valkyr. i do heavy attack about 3-4 mil crits on sp against greener. any armored nox fall like flies.
but such a very difficult to get warframe like normal khora with top skill sets and with at least 2 top builds was completely ruined...

[mycroft_]

  

19 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

That's also the reason why I've only seen normal khora once in the last 2 years. and I play every day.
first skill became absolutely meaningless because of this nonsense. and earlier I even had it on the right mouse button.

Yeah, Khora used to be my second favorite frame. Came back after a break and now she's garbage. I don't play her anymore.

 

18 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I used to "main" khora right up until they added LoS check to her one. DE chose the worst possible way of dealing with it. They should be able to balance a frame without applying broken mechanics that do nothing to address the actual problem. 

Hopefully they'll do better with AoE.

 

[ReddyDisco]

On 2022-07-28 at 8:32 PM, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

A damage nerf will massively affect hydroid because it will be almost impossible to hit the enemies in tentacle swarm without AoE

Oh no hydriod will see a huge drop in usage, from 0.1 to 0.05, how dreadful /s

[Monolake]

21 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I used to "main" khora right up until they added LoS check to her one. She's still OP but you waste energy and just miss enemies regularly. I forgot how bad it was until I maxed out khora prime adding a bunch of forma a couple days ago. 

It's a shame, her dps is insane and DE chose the worst possible way of dealing with it. They should be able to balance a frame without applying broken mechanics that do nothing to address the actual problem. 

They will probably do the same thing to aoe weapons and neglect the fact that the game is designed to kill as many enemies as quick as possible to overcome ridiculously low drop rates to ease the grind against stupid low lvl enemies. It will just slow down the grind and make the game more tedious until the next best thing comes around then they start again.

It is buggy as hell hitbox and not really LOS check  - you just cant hit the targets right in front of you with nothing obstructing them, you have to look down and target the ground, not the enemies - then whip hits them all (or they need to be further away from you)

DE needs to fix this

[Berzerkules]

3 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

  

Yeah, Khora used to be my second favorite frame. Came back after a break and now she's garbage. I don't play her anymore.

 

Hopefully they'll do better with AoE.

 

They will use the exact same mechanics for aoe and it will be garbage just like khora. It seems fairly obvious that people suggesting los for aoe have either never experienced how bad it is or just don't care. 

20 minutes ago, Monolake said:

It is buggy as hell hitbox and not really LOS check  - you just cant hit the targets right in front of you with nothing obstructing them, you have to look down and target the ground, not the enemies - then whip hits them all (or they need to be further away from you)

DE needs to fix this

There is that too. Idk what they did, first los check was added then months later they came back and tried to fix khora but it's still wonky.

It's too frustrating to play. I was a very active khora because I always ran kuva survival. You learn to whip on the move and now you just randomly miss and get tagged by enemies that should be dead. I don't care enough to figure out what angles I need to whip in every scenario. I'd rather play any other frame and not get pissed off playing a game.

If DE can fix Khora I'd play her again but since she just got primed and they did nothing I'm not very optimistic.

[DrBorris]

19 minutes ago, Monolake said:

It is buggy as hell hitbox and not really LOS check  - you just cant hit the targets right in front of you with nothing obstructing them, you have to look down and target the ground, not the enemies - then it hits them all (or they need to be further away from you)

DE needs to fix this

What you are mentioning here isn't LoS. For some reason Khora's whip ignores enemies and only explodes on impact with geometry or your max range (which is probably over 20m away). So even if an enemy is standing right in front of you your whip will go straight through them and explode 20m away. Hop in the simulacrum and test it out, it is plain to see. This can be "fixed" by doing what you say and aiming at the ground.

This is mechanic is indeed stupid. The Whip should 'impact' and explode on the first enemy it comes into contact with.

 

Besides Whipclaw punching through enemies I haven't had a single moment where I noticed the LoS being buggy. Unfortunately the punch through problem is very relevant so it has tainted the whole experience. I would be wiling to wager that most of the complaints with the "LoS" on Whipclaw can actually be traced back to this.

[stormy505]

20 hours ago, -Runn_Jegu- said:

Meanwhile, Titania's having a good old giggle reading this, sitting at extraction, waiting on her teammates, 1 min 30 and counting.

Rushing extraction in a exterminate mission without participating in killing I would call leaching.