The impact AoE nerf could have

[Merrcenary]

well at least if de will nerf aoe then mr0-10 newbs will suffer which is nice to me :)

[DrBorris]

16 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

Rushing extraction in a exterminate mission without participating in killing I would call leaching.

You probably haven't seen the "firefly" build. Throw Thermal Sunder on Titania and some decent strength/range, go max speed and burn everything around you.

[-Runn_Jegu-]

1 hour ago, stormy505 said:

Rushing extraction in a exterminate mission without participating in killing I would call leaching.

The word is 'leeching' and I never mentioned not killing enemies.

Titania is perfectly capable of destroying everything in her path with just her Dex Pixia pistols at breakneck speed, no AOE necessary.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb -Runn_Jegu-:

The word is 'leeching' and I never mentioned not killing enemies.

Titania is perfectly capable of destroying everything in her path with just her Dex Pixia pistols at breakneck speed, no AOE necessary.

how can you leech when almost the whole (or even whole?) content can be soloed in a full group?
I don't care what warframe, weapon, lvl others have as long as they open together the doors that block the rooms . and I don't always sit in arbitrations.

[Silligoose]

On 2022-07-29 at 9:22 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I was very surprised when I heard about that Marcus comment on Reddit saying that DE is going to compile and review comments and feedback about AoE to plan for ways to adress concerns.

As now Pablo has more responsabilities on the game developpement and about buffs and nerfs, I don't really think he will do a big nerf. Pablo himself knows that Warframe is a multi target game and AoE are multi target weapons. On Tennocon 2022, he openly said that Warframe is not a single target game (when talking about warframe reworks and why some abilities are less popular than others - linkbelow). I totally agree with Pablo : Warframe is multi target, so it's normal that AoE and others multi target weapons and abilities are more popular than single target weapons. AoE is not the problem at all. The problem is that single target weapons and abilities do not fit the game's current development status. Nerfing AoE is useless : buffing single target would be better, but would also be insufficient. It's impossible to change this "AoE meta" without changing the game itself. Perhaps, one possibility is to create some game modes where single target weapons would perform better than multi target weapons, but I can barely think how this would be...

 

 

Some of things said over the last few devstreams were rather disappointing and disheartening and that line was one of the stand-outs, not so much because he said this insn't a single target game, but because it was said within the scope of single-target abilities apparently not having value because this is a multi target game. Thinking that because a game is multi-target, single-target apparently has a very little role or value, is a shocking notion, especially from a lead game designer. Fallout 4, Doom Eternal, GTA 5, Borderlands 2, even Left4Dead2 are multi target. Hell, even Elden Ring is multi target and single target offence choices are competitive choices in those games, for a variety of reasons.

Just because a game is multi-target, is no excuse to not try to maintain balance within the offensive options to players, both in terms of single-target and multiple-target. A balance team's job is to establish and maintain that balance, because it gives a game not only variety, but depth. There are multiple ways to do it. It isn't about just making single target better overall, it is about establishing and maintaining a balance in which the choice of going single-target, or multi-target, have advantages and disadvantages within gameplay. That balance is not being being maintained within encouraged missions, including things like SP incursions and that is a failure on the part of the balance team, people who get paid to do this, at present.

As for Warframe and when single target performs better: It is pretty simple. Single target performs better when specific enemies are durable enough for the potential power of single target weapons to not be all but lost due to how flimsy enemies are in comparison and in terms of high-level progression, that also happens to the point at which AoE, especially the meta Primed Firestorm setups, can't reliably kill enemies in one shot or one second just by a pull of the trigger. One of the big issues Warframe has, is how much excess damage we have available compared to what is needed within encouraged missions, when players are deep into power progression and approach maximum-potential pure weapon damage performance. 

Want to make both single target and AoE competitive choices at lategame/endgame?

• Address the reliance on armour to make enemies "durable" at high levels. A 37 million EHP enemy that only has about 1.2 million HP, is pseudo durable at best, because about 36 million EHP is gone with the press of an armour strip button, or 36 million EHP is rendered null and void against Bleed that bypasses it. Those aren't made-up numbers - those are the EHP and HP values of lvl 150 Thrax Centurions.
• Address the imbalance in player weapon damage output vs enemy durability. That means nerfing radial AoE damage as well as nerfs to the damage bonusses attained from Galvanized mods and Weapons Arcanes.

That will help address the imbalance in weapon damage output vs enemy durability. Other outlier mechanics would still need to be addressed, such as Sonar's ridiculous damage bonus on highlighted weakspots.

Following that, stop forcing players deep into progression to play missions against low level enemies in order to unlock gear. Provide lategame missions for farming, such as fissure options and grant rewards balanced in kind, so the extra time/effort spent in completing those missions result in avg quality/quantity of rewards are slightly better, or at least on par, with the rewards that would be attained had the player opted to complete a low level mission instead.

Doing things like this will not only address imbalances. but grant more practical value to progression, giving players a reason to upgrade their weapons and get newer, slightly stronger weapons/mods, above and beyond seeing a higher number that has no actual practical value in gameplay.

Finally, because I know some players read this and think this would mean enemies taking "ages" to kill. No, it doesn't mean that. Even at level cap, priority targets can be can be killed within seconds and fodder can be killed in 1 - 2 shots, just not by those who want to rely on pure damage from the weapon and no other tools. With changes in enemy durability methods and nerfs to damage, we'd still be able to kill enemies incredibly fast in lategame/endgame missions, but we'd need to do a little more than just pull the trigger of our primary. If that isn't for some, they don't have to do the lategame mission options that can result in slightly better/more rewards on average and they can stick to low level missions where the gameplay is more one-dimensional for them.

[AegidiusF]

Hey, Silligoose !

How are you doing ? I was a bit absent due to work and family.

il y a 29 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

Hell, even Elden Ring is multi target and single target offence choices are competitive choices in those games,

Combat mode on Elden Ring is much heavier than in Warframe, but I agree with Doom and the other games you mentionned.

il y a 29 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

Thinking that because a game is multi-target, single-target apparently has a very little role or value, is a shocking notion, especially from a lead game designer.

I don't think it's shocking : it's normal. On a multi target game, multi target weapons will perform better.

il y a 29 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

Just because a game is multi-target, is no excuse to not try to maintain balance within the offensive options to players, both in terms of single-target and multiple-target.

Yes, I agree. But the balance here is mostly giving single target weapons some way to perform as good as multi target weapons (AoE and other multi target). If single target are not performing well, nerfing AoE will not make them perform better : it will just make things worse.

il y a 29 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

That balance is not being being maintained within encouraged missions,

Yes, I agree and I can say even more : the balance is not being maintained within the most kinds of missions in the game and because of the hard grind/farm mechanics, ammo limitations/efficiency... It comes back to that point : multi target game = multi target weapons performing better.

The balance won't be reached by nerfing AoE, but from a deep change in the game core itself... perhaps, the future of Warframe is to go play Soulframe...

il y a 29 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

As for Warframe and when single target performs better: It is pretty simple. Single target performs better when specific enemies are durable enough for the potential power of single target weapons to not be all but lost due to how flimsy enemies are in comparison and in terms of high-level progression, that also happens to the point at which AoE, especially the meta Primed Firestorm setups, can't reliably kill enemies in one shot or one second just by a pull of the trigger. One of the big issues Warframe has, is how much excess damage we have available compared to what is needed within encouraged missions, when players are deep into power progression and approach maximum-potential pure weapon damage performance. 

I kind of agree. As we can have two ranged weapons, it's possible to use a multi target to deal with ordinary mobs and single target to deal with more tough mobs. It happens on Eidolon hunts, on some bosses and perhaps it's what they wanted to do with the new Eximus.

il y a 29 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

Want to make both single target and AoE competitive choices at lategame/endgame?

• Address the reliance on armour to make enemies "durable" at high levels. A 37 million EHP enemy that only has about 1.2 million HP, is pseudo durable at best, because about 36 million EHP is gone with the press of an armour strip button, or 36 million EHP is rendered null and void against Bleed that bypasses it. Those aren't made-up numbers - those are the EHP and HP values of lvl 150 Thrax Centurions.

Lvl 150 Thrax Centurions : that's Steel Path base level. The problem is thet they have to make weapons good enough for low level players and (at the same time) for Level Cap runners.

The armor strip mechanics and the status mechanics are part of the game strategy. I think it's a good thing and I don't think the problem relies on this point.

il y a 29 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

Address the imbalance in player weapon damage output vs enemy durability. That means nerfing radial AoE damage as well as nerfs to the damage bonusses attained from Galvanized mods and Weapons Arcanes.

They buffed ranged weapons to make them as strong as melee. If they nerf tham again, players will come back to melee. Single target weapons will never be an option if they don't get some more options.

An exemple ; I use Velocitus a lot. Many players think it's a single target Arch-gun, but its projectiles can ricochet and it's very nice on closed areas. This single projectile mechanic makes Velocitus perform very well on some closed tileset missions. But on some open tileset missions, it performs very bad, with it's charging mechanics and being single target (without the possibility of ricochet). Also, against the Profit Taket, Velocitus is awesome, but against ordinary mobs on open spaces, it's pretty bad (it makes heavy damage, but it's mechanics do not fit the ordinary mob multi target combat mode.

il y a 37 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

Following that, stop forcing players deep into progression to play missions against low level enemies in order to unlock gear.

Yes, that's what I mean when I talked about the heavy Grind/farm mechanics. To get some resources, players need to kill a lot of mobs, break containers and do some missions as fast as possible. The consequence of this is that players will use the AoE weapons and AoE abilities to clean up whole areas by just pressing one single key. Relic runs with max range Volt, max range Ember, max range Saryn, max range Banshee... Wukong with Kuva Bramma or Kuva Zarr... Who will use a single target weapon on Sanctuary Onslaught ? If you want your Vandal Lato, you must not rely on your single target weapons.

il y a 41 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

Provide lategame missions for farming, such as fissure options and grant rewards balanced in kind, so the extra time/effort spent in completing those missions result in avg quality/quantity of rewards are slightly better, or at least on par, with the rewards that would be attained had the player opted to complete a low level mission instead.

Doing things like this will not only address imbalances. but grant more practical value to progression, giving players a reason to upgrade their weapons and get newer, slightly stronger weapons/mods, above and beyond seeing a higher number that has no actual practical value in gameplay.

Yes, I agree. I really think that new game modes can help. I could even say that one way to make things better is to add some game modes wherre single target and stealth would be the key to complete the mission.

It always made me laugh when the Lotus say, at the end of a Spy mission, the everything was perfect and the enemy did not even noticed our presence, while the mission was completed with a Wukong twin exploding everything with an AoE weapon (not me, I almost never play Wukong).

il y a 47 minutes, Silligoose a dit :

but we'd need to do a little more than just pull the trigger of our primary.

Isn't this what they saind about melee last year ? More than just pressing E to complete a mission...😁 I still remember that Rebecca's video showing her completeing a mission only pressing the melee button.

The way they "nerfed" melee and buffed ranged weapons did nothing more than making the AoE Meta even more Meta. And the same thing is true for the Eximus rework : the current Meta is even more Meta and the CC frames (that are not Meta) paid the price.

Nerfing AoE will bring back the Melee domination, nothing more. Single target will not perform better. And i don't think the problem is the damage : every single target can reach te damage cap (even the Mk1-Braton), the problem is that you can't deal with just one mob while there are many mobs around you and that you're in a mission that requires you to kill them as fast as possible. The problem is efficiency : single target uses the same amount of ammo to deal with just one enemy, while multi target weapons will deal with a bunch of enemies. And you can't rely on CC abilities to protect you while you single target each enemy as, at some moment, a bunch of Eximus will fall upon you with their weapons and AoE abilities, being immune to CC and at this point you won't event be able to target them correctly, as you will be forced to run, jump and roll all the time to escape from their powers (firing an AoE on them without targetting will deal with the problem very well).

I agree with you that new game modes will help to adress things, but I don't really agree with the changes on enemy durability, unless you get less enemies, less farm/grind, more deep missions with some objective variations... but, this, to be honest, will no more be Warframe, but a different game.

The "AoE Meta" is just a way players found to adress some others lack of balance in the game. Some warframes abilities, some game mechanics, do not work well and to balance that, players use AoE. t's the natural consequence. That's why, in my opinion, it's impossible to fix it without making deep changes in the game, but this changes will make Warframe look like a different game. It's a big problem and the solution is not that easy. Anyway, nerfing AoE won't help.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2022-07-28 at 10:02 AM, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

Scenario 1: LoS Requirement 

If AoE get a line of sight requirement we will not be able to speedrun capture or exterminate mission as fast as we usually do. It could hurt Adaro stealth level farm but not as bad as eximus change did. Our overall kills per minute will be reduced. 

Scenario 2: Damage Nerf 

If this happen we most likely will shift back to a melee gameplay for endurance runs because single target weapons are not that great. The only redeemable single target guns are phenmor and laetum (ik it have a small AoE but I do not count that as AoE). There are other good single target guns but they can't kill a group fast. A damage nerf will massively affect hydroid because it will be almost impossible to hit the enemies in tentacle swarm without AoE and if the damage get nerf it will take longer to kill those enemies. If we get a nerf to damage we will need a buff to single target weapons. One buff that will help is increasing the duration of merciless to make it easier and faster to stack. Damage nerf will have the greatest impact on the game.

I feel like one of two things is gonna happen. Maybe 3.

 

1) aoe gets nerfed but not enough to functionally change gameplay. The nerf herders arent happy because de didn't go far enough. I feel like this is the most likely scenario.

2) aoe gets nerfed into ground or gets such significant downside its no longer meta. Then we're back to melee meta. 

A lot of if not most single weapons just arent that good and quite frankly i dont care if someone wants to say its a mod issue or a skill issue. Doing 10k damage to one enemy at a time will never beat doing 10k damage to 10 enemies at a time. 

3) they decide its a can of worms and dont touch it.

 

Personally if it were up to me id say line of sight should be a thing at least and maybe a conservative change to blast radius on some weapons. 

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Hey, Silligoose !

How are you doing ? I was a bit absent due to work and family.

All good thanks. I hope the same for you.

Ok there are a few things to unpack. I don't know if you went through my post before addressing each point as you did, but I get the feeling you didn't, especially as you had talked about rewards and the grind, which I addressed later on, so let's look at the overall picture as well:

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Combat mode on Elden Ring is much heavier than in Warframe, but I agree with Doom and the other games you mentionned.

I don't think it's shocking : it's normal. On a multi target game, multi target weapons will perform better.

Yes, I agree. But the balance here is mostly giving single target weapons some way to perform as good as multi target weapons (AoE and other multi target). If single target are not performing well, nerfing AoE will not make them perform better : it will just make things worse.

Yes, I agree and I can say even more : the balance is not being maintained within the most kinds of missions in the game and because of the hard grind/farm mechanics, ammo limitations/efficiency... It comes back to that point : multi target game = multi target weapons performing better.

The balance won't be reached by nerfing AoE, but from a deep change in the game core itself... perhaps, the future of Warframe is to go play Soulframe...

I kind of agree. As we can have two ranged weapons, it's possible to use a multi target to deal with ordinary mobs and single target to deal with more tough mobs. It happens on Eidolon hunts, on some bosses and perhaps it's what they wanted to do with the new Eximus.

Lvl 150 Thrax Centurions : that's Steel Path base level. The problem is thet they have to make weapons good enough for low level players and (at the same time) for Level Cap runners.

The armor strip mechanics and the status mechanics are part of the game strategy. I think it's a good thing and I don't think the problem relies on this point.

They buffed ranged weapons to make them as strong as melee. If they nerf tham again, players will come back to melee. Single target weapons will never be an option if they don't get some more options.

An exemple ; I use Velocitus a lot. Many players think it's a single target Arch-gun, but its projectiles can ricochet and it's very nice on closed areas. This single projectile mechanic makes Velocitus perform very well on some closed tileset missions. But on some open tileset missions, it performs very bad, with it's charging mechanics and being single target (without the possibility of ricochet). Also, against the Profit Taket, Velocitus is awesome, but against ordinary mobs on open spaces, it's pretty bad (it makes heavy damage, but it's mechanics do not fit the ordinary mob multi target combat mode.

Yes, that's what I mean when I talked about the heavy Grind/farm mechanics. To get some resources, players need to kill a lot of mobs, break containers and do some missions as fast as possible. The consequence of this is that players will use the AoE weapons and AoE abilities to clean up whole areas by just pressing one single key. Relic runs with max range Volt, max range Ember, max range Saryn, max range Banshee... Wukong with Kuva Bramma or Kuva Zarr... Who will use a single target weapon on Sanctuary Onslaught ? If you want your Vandal Lato, you must not rely on your single target weapons.

Yes, I agree. I really think that new game modes can help. I could even say that one way to make things better is to add some game modes wherre single target and stealth would be the key to complete the mission.

It always made me laugh when the Lotus say, at the end of a Spy mission, the everything was perfect and the enemy did not even noticed our presence, while the mission was completed with a Wukong twin exploding everything with an AoE weapon (not me, I almost never play Wukong).

Isn't this what they saind about melee last year ? More than just pressing E to complete a mission...😁 I still remember that Rebecca's video showing her completeing a mission only pressing the melee button.

The way they "nerfed" melee and buffed ranged weapons did nothing more than making the AoE Meta even more Meta. And the same thing is true for the Eximus rework : the current Meta is even more Meta and the CC frames (that are not Meta) paid the price.

Nerfing AoE will bring back the Melee domination, nothing more. Single target will not perform better. And i don't think the problem is the damage : every single target can reach te damage cap (even the Mk1-Braton), the problem is that you can't deal with just one mob while there are many mobs around you and that you're in a mission that requires you to kill them as fast as possible. The problem is efficiency : single target uses the same amount of ammo to deal with just one enemy, while multi target weapons will deal with a bunch of enemies. And you can't rely on CC abilities to protect you while you single target each enemy as, at some moment, a bunch of Eximus will fall upon you with their weapons and AoE abilities, being immune to CC and at this point you won't event be able to target them correctly, as you will be forced to run, jump and roll all the time to escape from their powers (firing an AoE on them without targetting will deal with the problem very well).

I agree with you that new game modes will help to adress things, but I don't really agree with the changes on enemy durability, unless you get less enemies, less farm/grind, more deep missions with some objective variations... but, this, to be honest, will no more be Warframe, but a different game.

The "AoE Meta" is just a way players found to adress some others lack of balance in the game. Some warframes abilities, some game mechanics, do not work well and to balance that, players use AoE. t's the natural consequence. That's why, in my opinion, it's impossible to fix it without making deep changes in the game, but this changes will make Warframe look like a different game. It's a big problem and the solution is not that easy. Anyway, nerfing AoE won't help.

Whether or not a weapon, or weapon classes, perform well is relative: Relative to the game and encouraged weapons in SP, single target weapons are performing very well. Together with the myriad of tools available to us, from cc, to damage types, to damage buffing, etc, single target weapons performing at close to maximum performance have no issue at all, at any level of content. They can take out fodder exceedingly fast, can take out heavy units and Eximus exceedingly fast and can take out bosses exceedingly fast. As you agree, this continues to hold true, more or less all the way to level cap, where it isn't quite the less-than-1-second performance, but it is still pretty damn fast.. The only way in which they are not performing well, is relative to AoE in encouraged missions, because radial AoE damage weapons require less effort to perform even better.

As such, nerfing radial AoE damage enough would not only affect the current AoE meta and make the game healthier, in that a myriad of other tools would no longer be obsolete, it would bring the difference in performance between single target and radial AoE damage closer to one another, meaning single target will no longer be as inferior a performer overall and if balanced right, even better than radial AoE against certain units. Our single target damage also far exceeds what is needed in encouraged  missions, incl SP Incursions and as such, that needs to be addressed as well, but instead of addressing base weapon damage, the scaling options attained via galv mods and weapon arcane bonusses, need to be reeled in.

While armour stripping should still be the best way to deal with armoured units and Bleed should still be an effective way of dealing with armoured units, it shouldn't miles above everything else after our damage has been addressed at high levels of play, to the extent it is now. It simply renders what should be competitive choices, uncompetitive. We have Puncture, we have Corrosive, we have Cold, we have Radiation, all damage types that are also more effective against armour, but far inferior due to how high the damage reduction with armour scales. That's why armour scaling and the associated damage reduction needs to be addressed. We have other options and they should not lag behind the two top choices to as massive a degree as they currently do. Just imagine how many other melee weapon stances alone would benefit from it, not to mention weapons! No more deciding whether a stance is good mainly because it can force slash procs, or if the new weapon is good because it has high slash weighting. On that note, Virus can stand to be reeled in a bit as well. 

The ranged weapon buffs were far too high when DE addressed melee. The balance team failed the game and the players when they trivialized what should have been "hard mode", with the poor balancing, by giving Galv Mods and Weapon Arcanes the enormous damage buffs they do and for being too gentle with their nerfs to melee, especially Condition Overload, even after they saw how imbalanced melee was.

The balance team has again failed the game and the players with Overguard - it is an exceptionally poor mechanic. "Hey cc is a bit strong. Should we balance it?". "No, let's ignore the problem and let Eximus ignore it as well. Early lunch for balance team". Wtf? The problem with cc isn't simply that enemies can be cc'd, it is how long they can be cc'd for. Address that, instead of invalidating a pretty important foundational mechanic against some of the  most threatening units in a mission. 

When you take a look at the different rebalances I suggest and combine them, it would lead to gameplay in which both single target weapons and radial AoE weapons will both still perform very well, but but like different Warframes, each will have their own situations in which they perform better: Single target can deal with tankier units, such as heavy units and Eximus, more effectively, while radial AoE damage can clear light units and maybe medium units, more effectively, all the while giving other tools value as they will have greater impact on performance, allowing either of the two types to also be pretty damn effective against units they are not innately effective against.

When it comes to lvl 150 SP Thrax Centurion: To my knowledge, they are the most durable non-boss units in the game, found at the highest level of the optional difficulty setting - There's no need to cater for low level players in the highest level missions in SP - that's lategame, not earlygame. not midgame. They can be taken out with even a Corinth without any Weapon Arcane or Galv Mods. No need to worry about them being these unkillable monsters. 

It seems to me many lategame players have forgotten SP Survival isn't what one finds in most Warframe gameplay. Yes, there you get swarmed, because there players camp spots, there enemy AI is turned down, there enemy spawn rates are set to max regardless of the number of players in a squad (another bad balance decision, since it ends up making the game easier, not harder). Contrary to what lategame players would have one believe, things like SP Survival isn't Warframe gameplay as experienced in most of Warframe - it is just a special Horde Mode with settings that make it more akin to the more classic horde-style games. That's not the game, or the gameplay, as found in many other missions and certainly not the game that manages to hold the attention of players once they start playing, or the game they play as the progress through the Star Chart. 

The AoE meta is the meta because players gravitate to what is most effective. This is true for pretty much every game there is. Currently, it is the most effective, by far, within encouraged play, which is not healthy for the game's depth.

[V2lkyr]

Regardless of what they do,single target will never be as good as AoE.In the most extreme scenario the meta will shift to melee,but single target will still be ineffective compared to AoE.

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

Random thought - rather than change power dynamics of AoE vs. single target, how about giving people an incentive to use them? Off the top of my head - mods (that can't be equipped on AoE weapons) that work like mini resource/affinity/credit boosters that ramp up the more precision kills that you make (extra for headshots!) 

Not necessarily like this, but just wondering how to make single target weapons more appealing - might take a bit longer, but he rewards are better?

[CoffeeElemental]

I can't even imagine the amount of salt people will generate here when the AoE nerf finally comes. They will turn the forums into Don Juan Pond lel.

[Tizodd]

It's possible I missed it, but in this whole AoE nerf debate, I haven't noticed anyone make the suggestion of having AoE Weapon shots on cooldown to prevent constant nuke spamming.

Line-of-sight seems to be the most common suggestion, but having to wait between nukes would also help balance things a bit.

[Lutesque]

5 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

It's possible I missed it, but in this whole AoE nerf debate, I haven't noticed anyone make the suggestion of having AoE Weapon shots on cooldown to prevent constant nuke spamming.

I mean... If you don't want to Spam then Don't.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

6 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

Line-of-sight seems to be the most common suggestion, but having to wait between nukes would also help balance things a bit.

It would also lower Player Interest.... Why would Do that to themselves just for your Sake... ?

[Marvelous_A]

In terms of power level I feel like the archwing weapons should be available for primary weapon slot and the AoE primary weapons should go into item wheel with limited ammo and 5 minutes cooldown. Archwing weapons have too many limitations for how well they are performing in game, they hardly compete with normal weapons let alone the AoEs.

[gamingchair1121]

maybe a one round magazine and a long reload

[TeaHands]

[Artekkor]

But then we'll never get anything like Acceletra ever again. It's just too limiting.

The low ammo caps and self-damage are the only reasonable solutions without limiting the art of unique weapon designs.

They didn't had to remove self-damage completely, they just had to make it reasonable but no, they decided to go from one extreme to another. AoE weapons were a curse and required skill, now they are a different curse and require no skill. Oh well.

Game design hard.

[Numerikuu]

We really don't need another thread imo. Best to merge this into one big megathread regarding AoE and potential solutions/compromises etc.

(That being said, I'm not sure about a 'cooldown' per se, but something along the lines of the Bubonico for example where you can only spam for so much before you're forced to 'recharge'. Or even better, the Trumna where you have to charge up the AoE and can only use it once, then are forced to charge it up again. That way Wuclone can still use those weapons, he just won't be able to trigger the AoE side to them).

[nslay]

How about just fix the game? Weapons and enemies all need rebalancing.

[EternalDreaming]

Line of sight is good enough. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Maybe just stop wanting to ruin other peoples fun?

Seriously, team mates killing enemies before you can has been a thing since before AOE weapons became prominent. Nerfing AOE weapons isn’t going to change that.

[PatrioticEagle]

1 hour ago, Tizodd said:

It's possible I missed it, but in this whole AoE nerf debate, I haven't noticed anyone make the suggestion of having AoE Weapon shots on cooldown to prevent constant nuke spamming.

Line-of-sight seems to be the most common suggestion, but having to wait between nukes would also help balance things a bit.

How's about NO? dont want to deal with nuke spamming then just play alone or other "like minded" people who like taking their sweet time doing missions when most people would like to blast through because time is either precious to them or they just like having fun. Why do people always have to say "oh this is overpowered" that means i have to ruin it for others and demand a nerf so i can feel good about myself. giving weapons a cooldown time will make people not want to even use it at all, who the hell wants to wait for a weapon to come off cooldown, it defeats the purpose entirely of even having it. having low fire rate already exists or long reloads, this post and many others about aoe nerfs is just idiotic.

[Numerikuu]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

team mates

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Maybe just stop wanting to ruin other peoples fun?

Pot, meet kettle.

[Uhkretor]

1 hour ago, Tizodd said:

Line-of-sight seems to be the most common suggestion, but having to wait between nukes would also help balance things a bit.

Going Solo balances everything...

No, seriously, the amount of problems you won't have, like, ever just by going Solo is... It overwhelms every... "advantage", lets call it that, of going otherwise...

[UmbraAtrox]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Tizodd:

having AoE Weapon shots on cooldown to prevent constant nuke spamming.

A timer is just a way to balance things one has no idea how to balance properly. A timer is a bandaid, everytime.