The impact AoE nerf could have

[MutoManiac]

24 minutes ago, -EPECb- said:

Wukong is unbalanced, and this already goes against the very concept of the game. I don't hate this frame, it's just been over-"amplified" - it's not right.

Why then invent other frames if there is one Wukong who can do everything. Of course he's cool, but that's the whole trouble. He's too cool.

Because other frames are even more powerful, that's why people play them and they are fun. Almost any frame can be annoying or abusive as can a weapon. Doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

[-EPECb-]

В 10.08.2022 в 01:03, m_a_r_c_h_ сказал:

Because other frames are even more powerful, that's why people play them and they are fun. Almost any frame can be annoying or abusive as can a weapon. Doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

The words about "removing Wukong from the game" were said because DE took too many time to understand that edits are necessary. "Either fix it or delete it already" - something like this I wanted to convey to readers. The same is true for weapons. I don't mind if Wukong stays in WarFrame... although who am I so that DE ask me about anything in they game.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

26 minutes ago, p_silveira said:

Right? Then i see people saying "✨Oh, Warframe has such a nice community✨" and I'm like "Are we talking about the same community?"

OP makes a point here and we see people saying "go touch grass"? Seriously?

You know some of us used to be called the worst names you can think of, right? 

Ever heard of doxing or swatting? 

And you guys think a little condescending is terrible? 

[Turritopsis_Dohrnii]

10 hours ago, -EPECb- said:

What's up with Hydroid? Why he still not playable?

I’d beg to differ. Hydriod’s gameplay is fun and fun is playable to me.

[MutoManiac]

45 minutes ago, -EPECb- said:

The words about "removing Wukong from the game" were said because DE took too many to understand that edits are necessary. "Either fix it or delete it already" - something like this I wanted to convey to readers. The same is true for weapons. I don't mind if Wukong stays in WarFrame... although who am I so that DE ask me about anything in they game.

Wukong is good at most things. therefore the most balanced frame they have. Most players can take him to Level 140ish steel path which is also middle of the road hard, so he is balanced. What's your definition of balanced, the frame that can only do one thing well?

[p_silveira]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You know some of us used to be called the worst names you can think of, right? 

Ever heard of doxing or swatting? 

And you guys think a little condescending is terrible? 

I think the community over at Deep Rock Galactic left my standarts for "healthy community" way too high, then. As for doxxing and swatting, I thought that only happened at those highly toxic PvP games's communities.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

46 minutes ago, p_silveira said:

I think the community over at Deep Rock Galactic left my standarts for "healthy community" way too high, then. As for doxxing and swatting, I thought that only happened at those highly toxic PvP games's communities.

I don't play 15 different games so I don't understand the Deep Rock reference, but the swatting was an example of an extreme case. You can also google "gamergate" for another reference.

What was normal in everyday life was getting called the "big 3" derogatory slurs every other day, repeatedly. 

Once games started cracking down on in game chats, then they went to voice chat because it's harder to moderate.

This is one of the reasons why less people use voice chat nowadays.

 

Edit: also a reminder that even warframe isn't free from super bad chat stuff. There's a reason why Region is turned off by default. 

I'd give an example of some stuff I've seen when I was a new player, but I don't want to get in trouble myself.

[(XBOX)Obi Wan Dandobi]

2 hours ago, p_silveira said:

I think the community over at Deep Rock Galactic left my standarts for "healthy community" way too high, then. As for doxxing and swatting, I thought that only happened at those highly toxic PvP games's communities.

Great game and great community! Rock and stone!

[Loza03]

Disclaimer: I'm using the PSA tag as I am doing my best to try avoid this being a metacomplaint. However, I AM addressing a popular point of community discourse and controversy, and specifically a common misconception. Please proceed with an open mind, and please don't be too rude to me or anyone else. 

 

Pablo's recent tweets and interviews - specifically, this tweet and interview:

Spoiler

 

Have reignited the topic of balance in Warframe vs power fantasy. 

 

And to be honest, whilst I think there's a lot of very healthy and important debate to be had, it's the 'vs' that I believe lies at the center of much of the, to put it politely, less constructive discourse. The idea that balancing the game means removing the element of power fantasy, or the inverse, that power fantasy means that the game should not be balanced. I want to deconstruct these two terms, try and help a degree of mutual understanding.

 

Starting with the term 'Power Fantasy', the definition is deceptively simple. However, there is deeper complexity when you dive into the specifics. To illustrate, I have heard Dynasty Warriors, Halo and even Dark Souls all described as 'Power Fantasies'. Yet these games share almost nothing in common. The term 'Power Fantasy', in reality, is a supertrope - most games and a good chunk of media are some form of Power Fantasy. The term, after all, refers simply to 'the fantasy of having power', but there's a lot of different forms that fantasy can take. There's a Power in being an unstoppable force of destruction mowing down countless helpless troops, yes, but there's a distinctly different power in being a jack-of-all trades defeating an enemy that has you hopelessly outmatched and outgunned through wit and quick reflexes. And, yes, there's a feeling of overwhelming power in being the underdog who kills a god ten times your size with nothing but the scavenged armour on your back and a sword. I'm not going to discuss how many and what forms of power fantasy Warframe should engage in, at least not in this thread. Goodness knows, I have elsewhere!

Balance, in video game terms, can be described in two ways. The first, is simply 'how many options are practically viable' - that is to say, how many options can one use. There are other ways you can describe this (for example, the difference between an unoptimised, minmaxed and 'average' build), but the principle is ultimately some variation of how many options and builds are reasonable and fun to play. The other way is 'how well does the game succeed in delivering its intended experience'. In other words, a 'survival horror' game that gives you powerful weapons and tons of ammo and healing items has very little survival or horror. Balance should usually be considered along both vectors, since a game could have a ton of ways to play it, but all conflict with its main fantasy; or its main way to play could self-sabotage by being overly restrictive.

 

With that in mind, ultimately, Balance and Power Fantasy are not opposing concepts. Instead, Balance can be described as the means by which a Power Fantasy is attained, and for the most players and playstyles, since there is a different fantasy between sniping, using explosives and even wielding Warframe Powers. I would ask that the next time you offer discourse on a thread arguing for one or the other to keep this in mind, instead of discarding the main crux of the thread. I know I have not always myself, but I am going to try to more going forwards.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Some great points. I especially liked the explanation on how certain ideas (power fantasy) can have examples, which may actually seem in conflict with each other, but still fit the idea, because of contextual reasons and framing. Sometimes its good when forum users, give a bit more context to their points or arguments, rather than assume that everyone is using a particular definition of an idea. Especially when some can be contentious.

[CrownOfShadows]

I think it seems perfectly possible to have a well balanced roster of frames that all engage in power fantasy together.

It is also true that even with significant differences in what form that power fantasy might take, there can be imbalance within the roster itself.

Along these lines there's also a conversation about how much internal role usurption can occur before a frame's power fantasy is shredded. Let's take the ol' touchstone example of Trinity - is Trinity living her power fantasy? I'd say not. Is that imbalance? That's how I'd classify it. That's internal roster imbalance. Wisp is living her power fantasy AND Trinity's.

There's also imbalance when it comes to enemies. Like our power creep is massively imbalanced from the Grineer perspective, but that's a bit of a different topic.

 

[Berzerkules]

When you consider the majority of content we have is just grind on top of grind players will find the path of least resistance. I don't think most people are using Wukong to fulfill their power fantasy, they are taking an easy frame to play with good mobility. They can clear quickly with little effort. Turn your brain off and just grind.

I think its more of a problem with the gameplay loop DE has in place. Players feel like they are forced into efficiency and use the tools at their disposal. Repeatedly playing boring low lvl content fighting low drop rates promotes a certain play style. DE creates a problem and players find a solution. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I think it seems perfectly possible to have a well balanced roster of frames that all engage in power fantasy together.

It is also true that even with significant differences in what form that power fantasy might take, there can be imbalance within the roster itself.

Along these lines there's also a conversation about how much internal role usurption can occur before a frame's power fantasy is shredded. Let's take the ol' touchstone example of Trinity - is Trinity living her power fantasy? I'd say not. Is that imbalance? That's how I'd classify it. That's internal roster imbalance. Wisp is living her power fantasy AND Trinity's.

There's also imbalance when it comes to enemies. Like our power creep is massively imbalanced from the Grineer perspective, but that's a bit of a different topic.

 

Wisp can't instantly heal shields, or energy. And anyone with an Operator can heal...

Trinity can also still use a Rivened 8m melee and a primer like a Nukor for example. 

The power fantasy is now still intact for trinity. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I came to Warframe from Destiny specifically because it scratched the "power fantasy" itch that Destiny never could. For me, that means effortlessly and quickly moving through missions, killing everything with melee, without worry of dying. It's cathartic fun for me. It's the feeling expressed in the youtube review that convinced me to check out warframe, when it said "Warframe is like Destiny, with your super on the whole time." (paraphrasing)... and ever since I got the essential mods and achieved that flow described above, I have enjoyed nearly every moment of Warframe's main game (not story quests featuring spoilermode, and a few other key pain points that weren't fun.)

At no point have I ever thought to myself: "Boy, I sure wish these enemies were diving behind cover and just peaking out once in a while, requiring several headshots to kill. I sure wish these enemies were leveling up with me, to keep their challenge consistent throughout the entire game, and at no point allowing me to overwhelm them with my newfound power as I have progressed."

That's about as clear of a description I can give for my definition of "power fantasy", and balance doesn't even enter the equation for my fun factor.

The extent of "balancing" I'd see good, would be a stat squish that removes all percentage based mod stats, replacing them with fixed increases, with clearly identified "what this does for your build and power output." Along with that, would be a non-infinite-scaling enemy system in endless missions that doesn't devolve into either you live, killing everything, or you get one-shot killed - a maximum state of armor/health/shields for the enemies would be reached that stays within the bounds of the modding system, not requiring broken abilities that scale with infinite enemies... (with fixed stat increases from mods, they could create a spreadsheet of maximum and minimum power levels available with all possible combination of existing mods, weapons, and warframe power modifications through skills or arcanes. Thus, they could give bosses stats that provide the desired challenge level they wish to see people encounter at any given stage of the game. I would not want to see this "stat squish" change the overall dynamic from mission to mission, while grinding out materials, components, cracking relics, etc.

EDIT: a little clarification about the scaling of enemies

[CrownOfShadows]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Wisp can't instantly heal shields, or energy. And anyone with an Operator can heal...

Trinity can also still use a Rivened 8m melee and a primer like a Nukor for example. 

The power fantasy is now still intact for trinity. 

Eh, if you say so

[0_The_F00l]

I am in agreement with the OP , these two things are not necessarily in opposition and so one cannot be used as justification to deny the other.

Power fantasy does mean different things for different people though , one must accept that not everyone's power fantasy can be fulfilled at the same time or by the same means.

Balance on the other hand is relatively simpler to define , it should identify whether a combination of gear , skill and experience (includes knowledge) is suboptimal , adequate or over powered for a specific content of a certain level to effectively be difficult , expected or easy from a challenge standpoint. And while it may be easy to define it's not easy to implement (I blame DE for this)

Based on past experiences , when some players say "power fantasy" and try to deny balance , they are mostly saying i want to have an easy game that makes me Overpowered without requiring skill.

[KitMeHarder]

On 2022-08-09 at 8:41 PM, Loza03 said:

Pablo's recent tweets and interviews - specifically, this tweet and interview:

Because you used this as the reason why you started the topic, I just want to put it out there that Pablo's data was potentially affected by a bug (as outliers as egregious as Wukong usually mean your sampling method is flawed.) Its been know for a while that (there's a 99% chance) specter/clone uptime counts towards player usage stats. Making almost everyone that uses Wukong have 2x the usage rate they should (3x with RJ's Ability Kinesis).

Etc...

[0_The_F00l]

11 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Because you used this as the reason why you started the topic, I just want to put it out there that Pablo was in the wrong for making that tweet (based on what we know). He simply looked at the numbers, but didn't question if the numbers might be wrong (you'd think he would with how egregiously abnormal Wukong's stats are). Its been know for a while that (there's a 99% chance) specter/clone uptime counts towards player usage stats. Making almost everyone that uses Wukong have 2x the usage rate they should (3x with RJ's Ability Kinesis).

Etc...

Sorry to sound rude , but ,

Are you claiming you have better visibility of the stats than the ones that actually make the game ?

Errors can exist , no doubt , but mine has been pretty accurate ,

and if clones do count towards usage , does that mean the clone is using more time than the actual frame ?

Also the graph is not the same as usage stats specifically shown on the warframe page (which is yearly). Which is clear from some of the positionings.

Also don't forget the chart is based on MR 25 as a reference.

Once again , errors can exist , but based on my experience , every time I connect to a public squad i have a 60% chance of meeting a monkey with a cannon. So it's not that far fetched for me at least.

[Lutesque]

While that is a nice Description.... It also has nothing to do with Warframe.... Go ahead and take a Second look at the Tweet you just embedded.... Wukong isn't Getting Nerfed in the name of Balance... He's getting Nerfed in the Name of Usage.... The Distinction between Balance and Power Fantasy is Irrelevant since Balance isn't one of DE's Criteria...

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Are you claiming you have better visibility of the stats than the ones that actually make the game ?

Errors can exist , no doubt , but mine has been pretty accurate

Yours?

And so DE just gives us flawed stats in both our profiles and the yearly breakdown, and they keep the non-bugged ones for themselves?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

and if clones do count towards usage , does that mean the clone is using more time than the actual frame ?

No, the same. But every time someone uses a clone, someone uses Ability Kinesis, someone uses a Wukong specter, etc... adds a extra 100% to what should only be a flat 100%. Turning it into 100%, 200%, 300%, 400%, etc...

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Also the graph is not the same as usage stats specifically shown on the warframe page (which is yearly). Which is clear from some of the positionings.

Also don't forget the chart is based on MR 25 as a reference.

It's the same data, just 8 months later and with "breadth and depth" separated.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

but based on my experience , every time I connect to a public squad i have a 60% chance of meeting a monkey with a cannon. So it's not that far fetched for me at least.

Definitely not confirmation bias or anything. I shouldn't have to explain why an outlier that big is very likely wrong in some way. Or should I just counter with "I see Wisp almost just as much, why isn't she right beside Wukong?"? 

Not to mention stuff like you're likely to see Wukong in these short missions you keep chaining, because that's what he's good at. Were as a Volt doing a 45 minute Eidolon cycle literally just did ~15 Wukong missions worth of usage rate in a single go. Etc...

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yours?

And so DE just gives us flawed stats in both our profiles and the yearly breakdown, and they keep the non-bugged ones for themselves?

Yes the usage stat for 2020 and 2021 has been accurate for me , you are the one that highlighted topics with inaccuracies , , i am just highlighting my personal experience as well.

And I am claiming my stats were mostly accurate.

Do you have a list of people who have confirmed the accuracy of the stats vs those that have claimed it as being inaccurate for every single person playing the game ? Or do you only have anecdotal inputs from select individuals.

5 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

No, the same. But every time someone uses a clone, someone uses Ability Kinesis, someone uses a Wukong specter, etc... adds a extra 100% to what should only be a flat 100%.

Once again , have you made the stat report to claim that ? No , so you only have opinions not the actual insights or the data to back that up.

And honestly there are much more useful and reliable spectres to have than wukong , 

Also , it's not a spectre per se , It's the "celestial twin" that is the ability under use.

10 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

It's the same data, just 8 months later and with "breadth and depth" separated.

You must have access to some more information that is out of reach for us humble folk.

I do not recollect that statement being made in either of the media.

11 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Definitely not confirmation bias or anything.

Oh ? Is the pot calling the kettle black :P

Atleast i only speak for my own experiences.

12 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I shouldn't have to explain why an outlier that big is very likely wrong in some way. Or should I just counter with "I see Wisp almost just as much, why isn't she right beside Wukong?"? 

Not to mention stuff like you're likely to see Wukong in these short missions you keep chaining, because that's what he's good at. Were as a Volt doing a 45 minute Eidolon cycle literally just did ~15 Wukong missions worth of usage rate in a single go. Etc...

You are free to add your own opinions , no one is stopping you ,

But when you claim something as being outright "wrong" , not just an opinion , you better have some facts to back it up outside of anecdotal evidence with "confirmation bias" as you so put it.

And funny thing you mentioned volt , cause he is right there amongst the next three most used frames. And is pretty much in line with what Pablo said during the interview.

So personally (not as a fact) i do feel the chart is acceptable accurate. You are of course free to your opinion to disagree with me.

Once again , i am not a white knight , i have and will continue to criticize DE for some of the things they do. But if they have empirical data there is little reason for them to show incorrect information , cause they are not obligated to show any information at all.

they very easily could simply choose to change any frame as they like and there is little you or I could do to stop it.

 

we seem to be deviating from the topic which is balance and power creep , happy to continue this on a seperate thread.

[-EPECb-]

10 часов назад, Turritopsis_Dohrnii сказал:

I’d beg to differ. Hydriod’s gameplay is fun and fun is playable to me.

I tried him quite recently and I wasn't impressed. He clearly needs to reduce his energy consumption for some skills.

[TheArmchairThinker]

And how often this "balance" end up with imbalanced enemies as "boss" with nonsensical stat you usually end up pigeonholed into meta build because going off means you might take much longer to finish if not failing?

I'm not going to enjoy that 30 minutes to fight a boss while trying to stay alive with my team. I saw some thread about spending 3 hours just to chip away a boss health in FF14. Yeah no

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

51 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

And so DE just gives us flawed stats in both our profiles and the yearly breakdown, and they keep the non-bugged ones for themselves?

 

The data they collect internally for various internal purposes/processes, and the data they collect in such a way as to be generically presentable to players, in a particular way, to be more accessible for your casual player, aren't necessarily going to be the same, nor have the same limitations. Like there will probably be overlap, but theirs will likely have more depth and context. So it wouldn't necessarily be as simple as we get bugged stats and they don't. More so they have greater data, thats more comprehensive, some of which may be sensitive, that they'd be unwilling to make public, and it'd require other tools to possibly present it or in a particular way. Plus involve multiple people of various skill levels as far as interpreting the data and cross verifying with each other. We could (and probably do) get a simplified version thats more for general fun and curiosity. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

21 hours ago, -EPECb- said:

Nyx, where are you too?

If my friend knows about this, he'll slap you because I've seen his Nyx and it's an absolute killer capable of shrugging status effects like nothing while dishing damage