The impact AoE nerf could have

[Ocenau]

everyone please calm down, nerfs and other balance details are in every patch. just because de said they know the aoe meta has gotten out of hand does not mean everyone and their dog needs to panic. coming from someone who deals with anxiety every day thats got to rich.... you guys have been going nuts all over the net over this, balance changes are part of playing an online game, power creep is worse without a state of balance the game ceases to be fun.

 

[TARINunit9]

12 hours ago, Cerikus said:

What I don't understand and I am honestly asking someone to explain that to me, why is power creep bad for Warframe, specifically.

Unrestricted power creep comes with a massive risk of being very boring

That's about the gist of it

People who don't like the current AoE meta, don't want to play that way. They want to play with other playstyles. So they fear that any future content will expect them to run the AiE meta they don't enjoy. That would be boring for them

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Yrkul said:

Apparently you are a bit confused. I'm the one referring to a 20 minute TTK, in relation to challenges retaining a semblance of fun. Noone else did. Here, I'll repeat myself to make it a little easier for you to grasp.

I was talking about how much harder it is to properly tune content, when the power curve is as steep as it is. Engaging content needs to be hard enough, that there's a challenge to overcome, yet not so difficult, that it creates a frustrating player experience. With a curve so steep, that small variations in power level results in players either becoming grossly overpowered or hopelessly outclassed, it becomes extremely difficult to hit that sweet spot. Thus we see new content going overtuned, overtuned, undertuned, overtuned, undertuned.....

I'm not even talking about a specific encounter at this point, let alone armour (everyone was using corrosive anyway), just a vague recollection of a point, where the game went from fun to tedium.

I gave a concrete example, when asked. Asking for more is just asinine. A lot of mobs in their early iterations took if not 20 minutes, then at least long enough, that the encounter stopped being fun. And that's essentially the question here. Is the power creep, going both ways, a detriment to the game? You are essentially balancing between people quitting out of boredom and frustration, trying to keep things in the middle.

Honestly, I don't have much hope for DE being able to create balanced encounters out of the box. They removed all deviation from power level and functionality, and still ended up overtuning the archons. And sure, the archons could be beaten, but the amount of players who couldn't was high enough, that they had to nerf several aspects of the encounters.

No problem, understood. I would suggest reading Yamazuki's answer. 

 

[Venus-Venera]

Am 3.8.2022 um 22:50 schrieb DealerOfAbsolutes:

Steel Path. Super Steel Path? Ultra Steel Path? Mega Steel Path? Maximum Over Steel Path?

Steel Path was already a band-aid for the unrestrained player power creep along with Damage Attenuation, invincibility phases, status immunity and Overguard. 

In Warframe, everything multiplies with everything and DE decides to multiply more stuff to fix it. It hasn't worked and will never work. Warframe probably needs to rework the entire damage and scaling system, which is basically a new game. Why do you think Steve jumped over to Soul Frame?

the guys will never make it, because it depends on so many factors and first-class brains have to be hired. but that's extremely expensive and they work in big companies.
and new game is not a solution in my opinion. do you remember diablo 2 with mods? I've played it for years and modders have added very cool items and heavy monsters. balance didn't matter.

It's not about having the same performance with all weapons. they should only be useful! but this is not the case here. some weapons perform so badly that a warframe with little armor takes too much damage and the mission becomes impossible!

[Loza03]

12 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

 

Every game from 1990 to 2022 has characters with slow movement, slow action and did a lot of hand holding. 

Uhm.  What?

I'm sorry, what?

No, seriously, are we gaming in the same timeline?

And this is just shooters, by the by. Actually, just AAA, PvP shooters from major studios. I'm not including games where the entire point is to go fast (such as racing games or certain platformers like Sonic) or to have freedom in terms of how you do what you do (such as any decent RPG) PvE games or the Indie scene, so as to not to bloat the thread any more than I already have. 'Speed' and 'freedom' have been huge parts of gaming since the get go. People like to go fast and play their own way. In appealing to those fantasies,I hate to say it, but Warframe is about as unique as pumpkin spice. 

That's not to say its specific approach to movement is not unique, or even its specific approach overall, because Warframe is indeed unique. I, and I imagine many others wouldn't have stayed if it wasn't (you can't get that Warframe fix from any of the above games, that's for sure), and it's also likely part of why there's so much tension in the veteran playerbase who have the most developed arsenals and skills but nothing to test them against and those who just want a casual game they can chill through - there's no real alternative, so we gotta share the same pool.  But it's a fallacy to assume Warframe is so unique that aspects of its design are not already well-travelled and well-known and even more so to suggest that the game is either what it is now, or Monster Hunter 1: extra flexing edition.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I'm going to say that a lot of this is going to be down to subjective experiences, expectations and preferences. Not all of it though, since, like, the game still exists and has to be balanced in such a way to try and accomodate as many of those different experiences, expectations and preferences... 

I'll use myself as an example. I would consider myself neutral to favourable to powercreep in Warframe. I say this, because I generally like the idea of getting new weapons, and new variants of weapons that are stronger. If I think of upcoming Warframe activities I am anticipating, it usually includes Infested Liches, Corrupted Liches, or the equivalent. What weapons will they bring? New version of the Torid? Phage? Hema? Synapse? Pox? I think about a Phantasma Prime, Tatsu Prime, Cedo Prime, Epitaph Prime. Fulmin Prime. I wonder if we might get more Evolving weapons? Mind you, some of these weapons are amazing already, and actually some of the best at dealing with Warframe's harder content, and I already regularly use them. Phantasma, Cedo, Epitaph etc but I think some of them could use some changes and buffs and visual make overs. Like I also enjoyed the Hek, Flux Rifle and Arca Plasma, but when the Kuva Hek, Tenet Flux Rifle and Tenet Arca Plasma came around? Like Christmas! 

Upgrades to some of these weapons are going to be power creep, since they should be better than base, but if base already handles Steel Path for example, then upgraded is going to make it even easier... Except for myself, thats an acceptable trade off. 

That being said, I find Lith Exterminate and Capture missions really boring. Way too easy. A brisk wind will kill those enemies. Large incentive to do them though, to get new Prime gear, and have so many Lith Relics, being fast makes sense... yadda yadda. Some difficulty, and some resistance from enemies, for myself, is necessary. If Steel Path was as easy as Lith Exterminate then... Thing is, the game gives us a lot of tools, so...if you wanted to... you could make some of the games harder content as easy as Lith Exterminate, with the right builds. Personally I tend to avoid that, because I usually prioritise my own fun through variety, experimenting and exploring. I knowingly take sub optimal builds into situations, because I might like how a gun feels or sounds, or to see how well it could synergise with another weak Warframe, and see if two off meta picks, can synergise well enough to punch above their weight. So I am constantly rotating through my own arsenal. So the games hardest content never becomes as easy as Lith Exterminate. 

Many people aren't like that though. So newer powerful options, if not balanced or considered carefully, can end up making the rest of the game feel redundant, whether its weapons, Warframes, missions, etc and then this in itself can create balancing issues, because it becomes harder to accommodate different players and different players have different priorities and work off different incentives... which all goes back to different peoples expectations and preferences. Like i know some players who think certain weapons should be nerfed, because they are so much better than similar weapons. I agree that they are better, but personally I don't think they need to be nerfed, in the sense that I still use the weaker versions for different reasons, and the weaker version can perform "reasonably" in the games harder difficulties. They might not scale as well or be as optimal all around, but its still usable. Mind you the example I am referring to, both were single target weapons. Like to me, if they released a new Opticor that was slow charging, even if modded to be faster, but it one shot level cap Grineer. I would mind, I'd think that was rad. I couldn't see it being hugely popular either. Would also still use other weapons. 

Personally, I also like powercreep being tied to fun and in limited degrees. So Nataruk, Trumna, Phenmor, Laetum, Cedo are great examples. On introduction some of these weapons instantly became contenders for best weapons in their categories, but they had asterisks involved. Like you have to get headshots, or kills, to build up powerful AOE or powerful modes, or you needs to make a timed skill shot to increase effectiveness, or use the weapons own synergy well. Kuva Hek as well, its so good at killing Liches, but its not really a practical weapon for most of Warframe content outside that, but like the Rubico and Lanka in Eidolon's, what it does do, it does very well. Has a niche. 

[KitMeHarder]

18 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If the game's actual content doesn't keep up with that? You get power creep.

Power creep is only bad if it has no offset in the game's content.

And that's where DE has fallen short.

... But it has.

This isn't 2014 anymore, where you just kill basic corrupted in Void defense as your "endgame". We have no shortage of...

• Jugulus
• Saxum
• Necramechs
• Nullifiers
• Liches/Sisters
• Raknoids
• Orb Mothers
• Eidolons/Ropalolyst
• Eximus 2.0
• Zealoid Prelate
• Demolyst/Demolishers
• Amalgams
• Aerolyst
• Condrix/Orphix
• Gokstad Officers
• Etc...

As well as high intensity modes like Disruption and Cascade. Gameplay like Bounties and Railjack, which demand you use most if not all of your loadout/gear to be optimal. The Steel Path, which makes (what would normally be) a level 30 Heavy Gunner now have 53,011.8% more EHP. Do you think 2014 Warframe would survive today? Even if it could eek by, I would guess "power creep complaint threads" would barely exist (because there'll always be someone). We've always been Godly, and the game has done a good job of keeping pace, we just look more the part nowadays.

The difference is, people expect the game they've been playing for 1,000+ hours to some how get "more challenging". But the reality is, even if the power creep (progression) had been lessened over the years, the game would still feel easier and easier each update. That's simply how experience works.

16 hours ago, Voltage said:

2013-2019 DE were very adamant about working towards removing/reworking/nerfing things that were outliers in performance and created stale gameplay.

But that's just what they are, outliers (most of which would have been abandoned by the playerbase in 6-12 months anyway). AKA just them maintaining the bell curve. Almost every nerf you listed didn't change the power level of the game, nor increase the difficulty. The only exception really was the "spin2win" meta Maiming Strike allowed (which for the most part took almost 4 years to remove, not very "adamant" if you ask me).

I think rose-tinted-glasses affect people much more than they're willing to admit.

16 hours ago, Voltage said:

but those often used to require entire teams, loadouts, and weren't applicable to every mission. Likewise, many of these situations were input heavy from the player (managing CC times, trying to combo certain buffs, spawn awareness, etc.)

People always hyper optimize farms like that, and still do. Can I solo SP Vodyanoi with Khora? Yes. But it's still massively increased gains when you do it with a good squad. Can I solo ESO with Saryn? Yes. Do I get significantly more affinity with a dedicated Trinity? Yes. Can I solo all Railjack missions? Yes. Is it massively faster in a good squad? Yes. Etc...

The problem is we vets almost never need to do these kinds of farms again (who needs endo, focus, credits, etc...?). All we see is the random 2-5 minute fissure, sortie, kuva flood, etc... And we've always been nuking the living hell out of missions like that, with team comp always mattering very little. All that's changed is the flavor of the season, be it because of nerfed, buffed, or new content. 

So we've always been able to easily solo everything, I'd (conservatively) guess since at least parkour 2.0 (with the only exception being forced coop content, like the Law of Retribution). Vets just don't play content anymore that can be optimized with a squad in their day-to-day (at most you'll see it again in the first couple weeks of some updates).

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

18 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Lately, there has been a huge increase of talks about power creep and generally it's understandable that power creep has purely negative connotation.

What I don't understand and I am honestly asking someone to explain that to me, why is power creep bad for Warframe, specifically.

Even though I wasn't here for the open beta, I have played Warframe for a long time and a lot, and it always seemed to me that power creep was and is the back bone on which this game and all it's updates stand. 

I am going to simplify it a lot, but:
- At the begining we started to receive prime warframes and weapons. More power.
- Then Damage 2.0 was released. More power.
- There used to be stamina. At some point the stamina was removed completelly and we got Parkour 2.0. More power.
- Then more powerful mods and weapons started to appear, Primed mods even. More power.
- At some point Second dream happened and we got focus.  More power.
- Then we got the spoiler mode. More power.
- Let's not forget that we get a new warframe evere few months that adds to our roster of powerful tools that can solve our problems. More power.
- Many reworks happened, that increased our power. Melee rework few years ago for example. More power.
- With PoE we got Amps, more power to spoiler mode. More power.
- With Deimos we got Helminth.  More power.
- We also got Voidrig. More power.
- Recently we got weapons arcanes and galvanized mods. More power.
- Throught the years we are still receiving new and powerful weapons and on top of that Kuva and Tenet weapons exist.
- The most recent focus rework made us even more powerful and some of the new arcanes are great. More power.

So in conclusion. I don't understand why power creep (a design backbone of this game) is such an issue now in 2022 and wasn't such an issue in the past. The main progression always was to give us more. More items, more weapons, more frames, more power. If we stop receiving power, what then?

I honestly don't understand it and would be grateful, if someone explained it to me.

Love the posts man. 

People crap on ideas that look to solve issues and add to the gameplay and customization, and the only critique is powercreep.

[KitMeHarder]

8 hours ago, trst said:

And unless powercreep gets reigned in then every time DE wants to genuinely try and make a "difficult" encounter then it has to be in the form of immunity to multiple game systems.

Wolf is an egregious example. I think what he was the test for (liches/sisters) are a very good middle ground for "difficult encounters". Where there are simply diminishing returns to most game systems, and not flat out removal.

And every RPG I've played (or been involved with) has taken one of these approaches, or somewhere in between. You simply can not have something feel like a boss, and respect your progression, without them. Otherwise, all you get is stuff like Nihil (fun once or twice, but why'd I bother to do all that grinding?).

[----Legacy----]

53 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Wolf is an egregious example. I think what he was the test for (liches/sisters) are a very good middle ground for "difficult encounters". Where there are simply diminishing returns to most game systems, and not flat out removal.

And every RPG I've played (or been involved with) has taken one of these approaches, or somewhere in between. You simply can not have something feel like a boss, and respect your progression, without them. Otherwise, all you get is stuff like Nihil (fun once or twice, but why'd I bother to do all that grinding?).

Fun enough, powercreep put warframe on a similar spot where no matter what new content is added by DE, "it's fun for a short while", then becomes "why do i bother with all that grinding".

Content where our progression is taken away (Nihil, Grendel missions, TWW, TNW), "dynamic damage reduction formulas" (or whatever was the name on the mechanic used for liches to reduce their damage taken based on player dps) and other special mechanics (status immunity, ability diminishing returns, etc) exist only because DE is aware of the issues brought by powercreep, and they are also aware of "nerf yourself for some challenge" -a common response given by players who like powercreep to those of us who don't- being an answer that pretty much disrespects player progression, so they keep trying to get creative in an attempt to bring challenge to a game that's becoming a glorified gacha game where players can choose between gambling our time or buy its rewards directly with money.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

6 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Content where our progression is taken away (Nihil, Grendel missions, TWW, TNW) and "dynamic damage reduction formulas" (or whatever was the name on the mechanic used for liches to reduce their damage taken based on player dps) exist solely because DE is aware of the issues brought by powercreep, and they are also aware of "nerf yourself for some challenge" -a common response given by players who like powercreep to those of us who don't- being an answer that pretty much disrespects player progression, so they keep trying to get creative in an attempt to bring challenge to a game that's becoming a glorified gacha game where players can choose between gambling our time or buy its rewards directly with money.

I hate all those mentioned. I want player progression to continuously evolve, and I want there to be content to fit that somewhere. I think DE is scared to give the players a challenge. The problem then is when there is challenge only half of the frames and a fifth of the weapons can take that on reliably. This is the problem with SP, either its laughable or its gritty. If you push this further, an hour into SP half the frames finally have a fight and the rest are unplayable the same with weapons.

Most of the post that are looking for ideas to fix that get crapped on by the community for fear of powercreep. 

As for your spiel about you thinking the game is too much of a slot machine or pay to win. This game is MUCH more fair in its monetization than others. It has been getting worse slightly though. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Uhm.  What?

I'm sorry, what?

No, seriously, are we gaming in the same timeline?

And this is just shooters, by the by. Actually, just AAA, PvP shooters from major studios. I'm not including games where the entire point is to go fast (such as racing games or certain platformers like Sonic) or to have freedom in terms of how you do what you do (such as any decent RPG) PvE games or the Indie scene, so as to not to bloat the thread any more than I already have. 'Speed' and 'freedom' have been huge parts of gaming since the get go. People like to go fast and play their own way. In appealing to those fantasies,I hate to say it, but Warframe is about as unique as pumpkin spice. 

That's not to say its specific approach to movement is not unique, or even its specific approach overall, because Warframe is indeed unique. I, and I imagine many others wouldn't have stayed if it wasn't (you can't get that Warframe fix from any of the above games, that's for sure), and it's also likely part of why there's so much tension in the veteran playerbase who have the most developed arsenals and skills but nothing to test them against and those who just want a casual game they can chill through - there's no real alternative, so we gotta share the same pool.  But it's a fallacy to assume Warframe is so unique that aspects of its design are not already well-travelled and well-known and even more so to suggest that the game is either what it is now, or Monster Hunter 1: extra flexing edition.

"why there's so much tension in the veteran playerbase who have the most developed arsenals and skills but nothing to test them against and those who just want a casual game they can chill through - there's no real alternative, so we gotta share the same pool."

Yea definitely, I'd say this is an accurate assessment. 

[Tyreaus]

While I already answered, and that answer still pertains, there's something else I want to point out: uniqueness.

In principle, having increases in power through new gear is perfectly fine - at least when it's done right. The pitfalls I mentioned before still hold, after all. That happens with a lot of RPGs dating back - in my experience - to OG Diablo.

The issue in Warframe's case is that items don't just get better, they're different. People like the way a certain weapon handles. The game progresses and those weapons end up by the wayside. That's not an issue with more typical RPGs, where a sword is a sword with just different stats and maybe a slightly different aesthetic. (Yay fashion frame.)

In those typical RPGs, the investment to improve gear is just part of the climb: you upgrade gear, get the next tier that's better than the upgraded gear, upgrade that gear, get the next tier, so on and so forth. There's not a ton of attachment to the older stuff when the newer stuff is just the old stuff but better.

When the weapon itself is mechanically unique, and as it gets more unique, you add in more personal preference. Same sort of thinking behind character classes. Investing in that weapon isn't just part of a process, it can become an attachment. We see that with talks about AoE nerfs. And when power creep invalidates attachments, that's when you start butchering good will and have nerfing memes circling around the internet.

That gets you power creep of the real salty sort.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

22 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

While I already answered, and that answer still pertains, there's something else I want to point out: uniqueness.

In principle, having increases in power through new gear is perfectly fine - at least when it's done right. The pitfalls I mentioned before still hold, after all. That happens with a lot of RPGs dating back - in my experience - to OG Diablo.

The issue in Warframe's case is that items don't just get better, they're different. People like the way a certain weapon handles. The game progresses and those weapons end up by the wayside. That's not an issue with more typical RPGs, where a sword is a sword with just different stats and maybe a slightly different aesthetic. (Yay fashion frame.)

In those typical RPGs, the investment to improve gear is just part of the climb: you upgrade gear, get the next tier that's better than the upgraded gear, upgrade that gear, get the next tier, so on and so forth. There's not a ton of attachment to the older stuff when the newer stuff is just the old stuff but better.

When the weapon itself is mechanically unique, and as it gets more unique, you add in more personal preference. Same sort of thinking behind character classes. Investing in that weapon isn't just part of a process, it can become an attachment. We see that with talks about AoE nerfs. And when power creep invalidates attachments, that's when you start butchering good will and have nerfing memes circling around the internet.

That gets you power creep of the real salty sort.

Yeah new buffs need to be buffs to the old stuff and leave the good stuff alone. Rivens did this but added so so so so so many issues.

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

powercreep put warframe on a similar spot where no matter what new content is added by DE, "it's fun for a short while"

But that's not because it's "too easy", it's usually because there's a lack of worthwhile evergreen rewards 99% of the time. And again, this has happened in every PvE game and every grind game I've ever played or researched. 

I.E. Disruption is a very fun game mode I love to play... there's no reason to play it except for once every 3 months, when I need the new Axi relics.

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

"dynamic damage reduction formulas" (or whatever was the name on the mechanic used for liches to reduce their damage taken based on player dps) and other special mechanics (status immunity, ability diminishing returns, etc)

I think unlike Nihil, these are healthy for the game when properly implemented. And again, they exist in most games (commonly with CC immunity) because that's how you make bosses feel powerful (by taking power from the player). But it's unheard of to not have these mechanics in a game with exponentially scaling enemy levels.

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

a common response given by players who like powercreep to those of us who don't

Just to clarify, PvE games aren't and never will be challenging once you've vetted them to the extent you have Warframe.

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

a game that's becoming a glorified gacha game where players can choose between gambling our time or buy its rewards directly with money.

Ignoring the vitriol, that sounds like every loot/grind/progression game out there. In the end there is no challenge, there is only hording (and only 5% of that horde is meta... but you don't have to play meta). Personally, so long as the combat is fun, so too is the collecting and 'level up' style power fantasy.

All devs can do is make the game/grind engaging and fun, you're never going to be happy beating the 'dead horse' that is challenge (in this genre or any vetted PvE).

[0_The_F00l]

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

  You gotta point. Well I kinda fear that DE don't put too much effort into endgame balance because we are not the target consumer. I think that players with thousands of hours are not the ones spending much money, but that's just a quess. I have no idea. Maybe they don't want to care about it or don't know how to fix it without making people angry. From the previous and recent interviews (like the one with Pablo) it has been confirmed that they refuse to trim the fat/remove pointless stuff/change the game too much to upset even one person.

True enough , those that have been around for some time will not spend as much ,unless its for cosmetics and why would they spend on cosmetics if they never use the base item itself.

There has been a recent change in leadership , there might be some changes which were previously rejected. Time will tell.

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Well there are some things I disagree with here.

- I didn't say it's a recent issue, but that more people are talking about it recently. I don't/didn't understand why now.

People have been talking about it for a very long time mate, They have been more vocal now that there is actually some hints from the Devs that they may work on certain things specifically. That may be the difference.

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

  - You are right that the content doesn't keep up, but the content is steadily increasing in difficulty. Good example are Zariman bounties. Yes, they are still easy, but the enemy level is something we have not seen before anywhere (not counting SP, which was explicitly said to be out of consideration for balance)

The point is the difference between the power of the weapons against the power of the current content. And yes , the zariman bounties are indeed more challenging , cause they depend (at times) on something that is currently not that overpowered , namely the operator/drifter and focus schools. If there was no need for that the difficulty would have been not that noticeable.

Its more about the mechanics there than the actual level of the enemies.

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

- There was a time when the RNG involved was much more brutal. The balance of RNG and effort put into the recent updates is great imo. While the RNG involved in Liches 1.0 or Railjack 1.0 was horrific. I am certain it's much better today.

You have to explain where you feel that it was harder in the past as compared to now from RNG perspective. Bounties (multi stage missions) are the current Trend to gate content (not that they are bad and can be decently engaging) but its definitely more involved and longer than simply completing a random mission that used to be the staple in the past,

To the point that simply farming the platinum is faster than getting the actual item. That is one other point where i feel an issue lies but is not quite the point of the discussion.

And i do agree that specific instances of excessive RNG have been toned down, But the fact that they did exist for a significant amount of time was a symptom of the core issue, the issue of using RNG as a gatekeeper,

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Btw. I wanna thank all of you guys for very nice discussion and explanation. Tbh, I wasn't expecting such a number of nice responses that actually answered my question perfectly. I am the type of person that would just like to get the new shiny/powerful thing and I don't care about my previous investment rendered worthless. I don't actually think about the gap between low level players and endgame players, therefore I honestly would not mind any kind of power creep. But I think I will be more thoughtful about that now. :)))

Its always nice to have civil discussion , even if there is disagreement when it ends :) .

 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

As I've posted on page 1, and Kitmeharder has posted on this page, I think the game HAS kept up with the power creep. The reason we keep seeing people complain about "no challenge" is a combination of them just getting really skilled after thousands of hours of play and game systems sending these vets into lower level content, where they blow stuff up without worry.

So, despite the posts saying how power creep is invalidating everything, I don't see that in my experience, at all. Especially when you consider things like Demolysts and Thraxx units. I see players in PUGs STRUGGLING. I see a game that very much continues to challenge people.

(And, even when I'm blasting through low level stuff like a madman, I'm still having fun anyway, so I don't feel my gameplay experience has been diminished in the same way these people who crave "challenge" seem to push.

 

EDIT: Also, my roommate complains all the time about how empty the Steel Path is. He has to solo all that, because nobody wants to play more challenging content anyway. Proof is in the pudding. (this goes for Disruption too, and the only reason Zariman missions are hot stuff right now, is the new stuff you get from them.)

EDIT2: Oh, and people drop out of Elite Sanctuary Onslaught all the time, way before round 8... so I'm going to have to go in with him to farm stuff that just gets tedious to do solo, without someone else to rely on in there, who is competent. (I'm personally content to forego getting stuff from ESO, but I'll help my friend out.)

[TheArmchairThinker]

21 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But it would make the game better to anyone that was actually interested in a game

So players who enjoy wiping out enemies without breaking a sweat is not "actually interested"? I for one enjoy Warframe because of that, you're not getting gear so you can stay challenged with "stronger" enemies to get even stronger gear. Hek, my favorite gear would be chaos ring/magus ring from Castlevania for "rapid MP regen" that is better written as infinite MP

That's my enjoyment as someone who's "actually interested" in Warframe

[Silligoose]

10 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

SP was such a facepalm moment. DE retooled armor so that it would plateau at a certain point to stop enemy EHP from being annoying and requiring everyone to build armor strip... And then SP came out and slapped a huge % increase on that plateaued armor. And now oh look everyone cares about armor stripping again. 

Indeed. It honestly feels like there are teams within DE that are actively trying to undo the work of other teams.

[----Legacy----]

21 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

But that's not because it's "too easy", it's usually because there's a lack of worthwhile evergreen rewards 99% of the time. And again, this has happened in every PvE game and every grind game I've ever played or researched. 

I.E. Disruption is a very fun game mode I love to play... there's no reason to play it except for once every 3 months, when I need the new Axi relics.

The issue is more on a big chunk of the playerbase being entirely reward-driven instead of enjoying the gameplay. Proof of it is people using "the grind" and "farm efficiency" to argue against any possible nerf to our gear.

I.E. Conclave (yes, that part of the game many people dread) is a very fun and engaging game mode i love to play. I play it all the time, even though i already got all of its rewards and now all i can get from it is 6 relic packs once every 3 months.

30 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I think unlike Nihil, these are healthy for the game when properly implemented. And again, they exist in most games (commonly with CC immunity) because that's how you make bosses feel powerful (by taking power from the player). But it's unheard of to not have these mechanics in a game with exponentially scaling enemy levels.

CC immunity, power diminishing returns and other special mechanics indeed make sense on certain enemies, like bosses. The issue in warframe comes -imo- from how most bosses feel really weak, sometimes even with these unique mechanics (such as lich/sisters), defeating their purpose.

43 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Just to clarify, PvE games aren't and never will be challenging once you've vetted them to the extent you have Warframe.

They can be as long as they have fun systems, require some degree of mechanical skill, enforce resource management and quick decision making, but most important of it all, these need a power ceiling to balance around.

The issue with warframe is that the lack of power ceiling + ability to customize for endless resources allows players to completely bypass both, the mechanical aspect of warframe (parkour + aiming) and resource management; ways through which it is possible to present a challenge to players and make us engage with the game (PvE games like "Shadow of the Colossus" and "Blasohemous" made a great job in such regard, making them ny favorite pve games so far)

56 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Ignoring the vitriol, that sounds like every loot/grind/progression game out there. In the end there is no challenge, there is only hording (and only 5% of that horde is meta... but you don't have to play meta).

That sounds fine for idle games like Cookie Clicker, but actually awful for a "fast paced coop shooter" (btw, i agree there's no need to play meta, i don't even play meta when i do pve here in warframe)

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

All devs can do is make the game/grind engaging and fun, you're never going to be happy beating the 'dead horse' that is challenge (in this genre or any vetted PvE).

I wouldn't say it's a dead horse since DE sometimes manages to deliver challenging content. The issue is that they end up killing it themselves to calm people who can't take or just don't want challenge in warframe, yet somehow feel (self)entitled to whatever rewards these may hold. SP is the best example of it since it was fun and engaging until DE added galvanized mods and weapon arcanes, so -once again- we gotta play 1hour+ on an endless mission for some engaging combat, only difference us that now it's on SP unlike before it was added.

[TheArmchairThinker]

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

the game places safety bumpers all over the track and programs opponents not to race, but to just stay behind the player, so players can win by pressing drive and not really paying attention to silly mechanics such as "steering" or "braking

Is it though? Or the car is just so fast and beyond awesome handling that you can simply catch up if the enemies ever overtake you?

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

But that's just what they are, outliers (most of which would have been abandoned by the playerbase in 6-12 months anyway). AKA just them maintaining the bell curve. Almost every nerf you listed didn't change the power level of the game, nor increase the difficulty. The only exception really was the "spin2win" meta Maiming Strike allowed (which for the most part took almost 4 years to remove, not very "adamant" if you ask me).

I think rose-tinted-glasses affect people much more than they're willing to admit.

People always hyper optimize farms like that, and still do. Can I solo SP Vodyanoi with Khora? Yes. But it's still massively increased gains when you do it with a good squad. Can I solo ESO with Saryn? Yes. Do I get significantly more affinity with a dedicated Trinity? Yes. Can I solo all Railjack missions? Yes. Is it massively faster in a good squad? Yes. Etc...

The problem is we vets almost never need to do these kinds of farms again (who needs endo, focus, credits, etc...?). All we see is the random 2-5 minute fissure, sortie, kuva flood, etc... And we've always been nuking the living hell out of missions like that, with team comp always mattering very little. All that's changed is the flavor of the season, be it because of nerfed, buffed, or new content. 

So we've always been able to easily solo everything, I'd (conservatively) guess since at least parkour 2.0 (with the only exception being forced coop content, like the Law of Retribution). Vets just don't play content anymore that can be optimized with a squad in their day-to-day (at most you'll see it again in the first couple weeks of some updates).

Congratulations, you quoted a fraction of my comment to point out 2 things entirely unrelated to what I said.

Not once did I mention whether it changed difficulty. The entire comment was literally to point out a shift in attitude over the years.

I commented on how general content has been affected by this situation, and how you can get by with this little input nonsense, not the top end of the spectrum. Obviously optimization will benefit from more players outside of edge cases like Bounties scaling better solo.

[Skoomaseller]

not really a big deal 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb ShogunGunshow:

And now oh look everyone cares about armor stripping again. 

You do? Because I personally don't even care. Bramma takes care of everything easily.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

As I've posted on page 1, and Kitmeharder has posted on this page, I think the game HAS kept up with the power creep. The reason we keep seeing people complain about "no challenge" is a combination of them just getting really skilled after thousands of hours of play and game systems sending these vets into lower level content, where they blow stuff up without worry.

So, despite the posts saying how power creep is invalidating everything, I don't see that in my experience, at all. Especially when you consider things like Demolysts and Thraxx units. I see players in PUGs STRUGGLING. I see a game that very much continues to challenge people.

(And, even when I'm blasting through low level stuff like a madman, I'm still having fun anyway, so I don't feel my gameplay experience has been diminished in the same way these people who crave "challenge" seem to push.

 

EDIT: Also, my roommate complains all the time about how empty the Steel Path is. He has to solo all that, because nobody wants to play more challenging content anyway. Proof is in the pudding. (this goes for Disruption too, and the only reason Zariman missions are hot stuff right now, is the new stuff you get from them.)

EDIT2: Oh, and people drop out of Elite Sanctuary Onslaught all the time, way before round 8... so I'm going to have to go in with him to farm stuff that just gets tedious to do solo, without someone else to rely on in there, who is competent. (I'm personally content to forego getting stuff from ESO, but I'll help my friend out.)

I agree. I can still get my butt kicked by many high level units even with my powercreep. 

This is why some vets actually like the eximus rework. 

When you see that electric eximus coming your way and his 3 electric balls of death....you know to handle that threat immediately while parkouring to avoid those tesla balls of death!