Change about AoE Weapons (DevStream 163)

[UNO168]

what I believe is heading the right direction(buffing other aspects of the game so it keeps up with AOE weapon):
1. permanent buff for warframe (archon shards etc)
2. headshot damage buff for precision weapon
3. precision weapons are made inherently advantageous.

what I believe is heading the wrong path:
If more than 40% of players prefers AOE weapons maybe just maybe it's a rational and logical choice.
1. Why throw rock/spear at npc when you can throw a grenade and wipe the whole npc squad? if I play 12hrs a day of warframe the last thing I want to use is precision weapon to further strains my eyes.
2. Perhaps DE you're mistaking the appealing aspect/selling point of your game with something you deemed undesirable? Not every games has to be counter strike or rainbow six, maybe just maybe ppl like to use rocket launcher/grenade launcher/explosive arrow/flamethrower/explosive kunai/explosive boomerang/explosive soaker non-stop in a video game.
3. AOE weapons deal headshot damage is actually promoting skilled aim, some weapons can still be used so the explosion reach head first. Disabling headshot damage from AOE weapon is actually dumbing them down further.
4. Ppl will just find new way to play this game while not aiming like esport pro because we are not(they got paid to aim, do we?), there's literally tons of AOE warframe skills in the game, some even do 360 no-scope, are those gonna be next on the list once you're done with AOE weapons?
5. Is warframe made to play with precision weapons? a 3rd person shooter which your character already taking part of the view and then there's cosmetic which some literally obscuring the  entire crosshair accompanied by explosions of colors by skills/weapons. Do you think people would like to aim in an environment like this?

 

[Graavarg]

20 minutes ago, UNO168 said:

what I believe is heading the wrong path:
If more than 40% of players prefers AOE weapons maybe just maybe it's a rational and logical choice.
1. Why throw rock/spear at npc when you can throw a grenade and wipe the whole npc squad? if I play 12hrs a day of warframe the last thing I want to use is precision weapon to further strains my eyes.
2. Perhaps DE you're mistaking the appealing aspect/selling point of your game with something you deemed undesirable? Not every games has to be counter strike or rainbow six, maybe just maybe ppl like to use rocket launcher/grenade launcher/explosive arrow/flamethrower/explosive kunai/explosive boomerang/explosive soaker non-stop in a video game.
3. AOE weapons deal headshot damage is actually promoting skilled aim, some weapons can still be used so the explosion reach head first. Disabling headshot damage from AOE weapon is actually dumbing them down further.
4. Ppl will just find new way to play this game while not aiming like esport pro because we are not(they got paid to aim, do we?), there's literally tons of AOE warframe skills in the game, some even do 360 no-scope, are those gonna be next on the list once you're done with AOE weapons?
5. Is warframe made to play with precision weapons? a 3rd person shooter which your character already taking part of the view and then there's cosmetic which some literally obscuring the  entire crosshair accompanied by explosions of colors by skills/weapons. Do you think people would like to aim in an environment like this?

I think you are missing two core things:

1. That is is "rational" to use AoE spam IS the problem, as "AoE spamming" is currently just too effective
2.  What might be rational for one player can be totally un-fun and un-cool for everyone else on a squad

Both of these, even on their own, necessitates a thorough AoE spam change. A game that is un-fun will die, no matter how "rational" the use of a tiny portion of all equipment is.

Where I think DE goes wrong is:

1. The ammo changes can be super-easily fixed using ammo pizzas, so there will be no real shortage of ammo for AoE spam = the irritating explosions spamming is not going away.
2. Nerfing Primed Firestorm is TOTALLY dumb, since it hits players using well-placed single-shot AoE grenades harder than the spammers. The spammers will just spam even more, but aiming and hitting a group with a single grenade will be quite heavily nerfed (due to how the area of a circle is calculated, the percentage nerf is much larger than it appears to be). 

So what we'll have after this is ammo pizza AoE spammers only, and no-one left using the grenade launchers as they were actually meant to be used. It is a weak, yellow-bellied solution (if it is a solution at all). All that was needed to fix the spam was to A) increase the re-load time & B) change all spam-AoE weapons to one shot mag weapons (like Tonkor). Spam-problem solved.

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, UNO168 said:

what I believe is heading the right direction(buffing other aspects of the game so it keeps up with AOE weapon):
1. permanent buff for warframe (archon shards etc)
2. headshot damage buff for precision weapon
3. precision weapons are made inherently advantageous.

These don't do much:

1. Our frames are already powerful enough to deal with SP level cap enemies, further power only makes it easier to deal with those enemies which we aren't intended to reach in the first place.

2. More nothing, it's just a buff to the overkill damage capabilities of weapons that already can deal tons of overkill damage when aiming precisely. This buff won't make them compete with other weapons able to deal less overkill damage but in a big area instead.

3. AreYouSureAboutThat.gif

1 hour ago, UNO168 said:

AOE weapons deal headshot damage is actually promoting skilled aim, some weapons can still be used so the explosion reach head first. Disabling headshot damage from AOE weapon is actually dumbing them down further.

It depends, i'm not sure if AoE is currently dealing headshot damage to enemies caught in their explosion volume, but if that's what actually happening, then disabling headshot multiplier of AoE weapons makes total sense since heads are bound to be caught within their explosion volume, offering a bigger reward for a smaller effort (aka dumbing them down)

[kinoko_takenoko]

Non-AoE weapons critically lack damage output.
Also, enemies move quickly, making it difficult to hit them. This could have been solved with CC, but was ruined by Overguard.
If you want to adjust by nerfing AoE weapons, you also need to nerf the enemy significantly.
Furthermore, there are too many enemies to kill, so the number of enemies to kill and item drops in general need to be adjusted.
(or heavily buff non-AoE weapons without nerfing AoE weapons)

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

58 minutes ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

Non-AoE weapons critically lack damage output.
Also, enemies move quickly, making it difficult to hit them. This could have been solved with CC, but was ruined by Overguard.
If you want to adjust by nerfing AoE weapons, you also need to nerf the enemy significantly.
Furthermore, there are too many enemies to kill, so the number of enemies to kill and item drops in general need to be adjusted.
(or heavily buff non-AoE weapons without nerfing AoE weapons)

Wrong on multiple fronts:

We've already killed high level enemies with single target. 

Adjust your mouse/controller sensitivity if you're having issues aiming at slow enemies. They're not fast at all.

Only eximus can't be CC'd. You can still CC all the fodder enemies.

[Lesser_Soul]

yeah headshot damage nerf and LoS check doesn't do much for high radius, aoe weapons but it really hurts low radius, aoe weapons. 

i'd say LoS check should only be for geometry and not bodies, headshot damage should stay the same and maybe increased for small aoe weapons, and aoe damage fall off should be 100%-0% across the board instead of the various amounts for each weapon. 

that way percision is rewarded more than just spamming aoe all over the place.

[Rantear]

Here's an idea on how to make single-target weapons actually compete with AoE:

Add vortex to them. /jk

But seriously, headshot bonus is nice and all, but with all the positive stuff on devstream, AoE vs Single target still seems to be affected by Warframe's identity crisis.
It's not just a shooter, it's a horde shooter, a third person horde shooter nonetheless, which makes aiming at the heads all that slightly bit harder.

Usually you either make beefy enemies that appear semi-often to make single target weapons viable.
(Comparatively speaking, not Eximus level beefy, Void Angel level beefy.)

Or... Saturation fire. Weapons should be spammable, ever taken Imperator Vandal to a low level mission? That's how a single target should be. It doesn't have to compete with Grakata tho, if it's semi-auto - make it so even landing body shots from a hip will still kill enemies in 1-2 shots, just don't make fire rate or reload speed unbearable, like it currently is for some weapons, it should be spammable - you saw an enemy, you deleted it, with only how fast your reaction is and how fast you can put crosshair over the enemy deciding how long said enemy lives.
In current realities, something like Exergis should ultimately have AoE, but you can make it compete with AoE, if you remove the constant reloading. However for Angel Hunting it is perfect, if only there were more Angels. Also a note - fall off distance on certain weapons (specifically shotguns) certaintly doesn't help.

Speaking in terms of Steel Path survival - you need to kill around 100 enemies per minute, I think, to keep up the life support, but if it takes you even 2 seconds to kill an enemy, you're already behind.
And there's obviously an issue on how to keep weapons feel unique in these conditions....

There's also bullet magnetism that I've heard is used in some games, since you've decided to buff headshots, increasing hitboxes of enemy heads might prove beneficial - like in Killing Floor, head hitboxes are almost twice the size of the models, and that game is in first person, meaning that their heads already take up more space on the screen, how often do you shoot an enemy in the head in Warframe, only to see the shot hit the body? Like look at the size of this lad's hitbox, and he takes up more space on the screen there than Void Angels do here.

Спойлер

AoE kills more enemies faster. so they need to somehow make single target weapons to kill more enemies faster, instead they made single target weapons kill enemies harder but only when specific condition is met, which could've been a solution if we killed enemies in 10 shots, and they made it so we kill them in 5, but we kill them 1, and with the change we kill them in 1. At least for majority of the game. It'll kinda have some effect on Steel Path I guess, but you'll see like 20 constantly shuffling Grineer soldiers shooting at you, and headshotting them all will become problematic.

They did just change 1 global variable, so not much time wasted on a potentially ineffective change, although it'll help with Angels and Eidolons, so that's a plus.

[DrBorris]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

We've already killed high level enemies with single target. 

I don't think this is a very fair generalization to make. Single target weapons with "good" DPS are the exception, not the norm. Most rifles in the game have pitiful damage, many semi-auto weapons only do decent on paper and fall off when you account for their theoretical fire rate being faster than a human can click, and then you have things like shotguns that have a significant damage falloff.

A balance pass on non-AoE weapons to bring the majority in line with "modern" DPS standards is desperately needed. Just because things like Trumna, Phenmor, and Snipers are doing well doesn't mean that the broad category is doing well.

Just for example, Tiberon Prime (MR 14), one of the best "rifles" in the game, has roughly half the raw sustained DPS of Kuva Zarr. The recent weapons we've gotten also feel like wet noodles when it comes to DPS as well (Aeolak, Alternox, Ambassador). Even Tenet Flux Rifle and Tenet Tetra are only "good" in that they are above-average for their class, they aren't good in the full scope of the game.

 

You can certainly brute force these weapons to work into SP, but they are by no means balanced.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, DrBorris said:

I don't think this is a very fair generalization to make. Single target weapons with "good" DPS are the exception, not the norm. Most rifles in the game have pitiful damage, many semi-auto weapons only do decent on paper and fall off when you account for their theoretical fire rate being faster than a human can click, and then you have things like shotguns that have a significant damage falloff.

A balance pass on non-AoE weapons to bring the majority in line with "modern" DPS standards is desperately needed. Just because things like Trumna, Phenmor, and Snipers are doing well doesn't mean that the broad category is doing well.

Just for example, Tiberon Prime (MR 14), one of the best "rifles" in the game, has roughly half the raw sustained DPS of Kuva Zarr. The recent weapons we've gotten also feel like wet noodles when it comes to DPS as well (Aeolak, Alternox, Ambassador). Even Tenet Flux Rifle and Tenet Tetra are only "good" in that they are above-average for their class, they aren't good in the full scope of the game.

 

You can certainly brute force these weapons to work into SP, but they are by no means balanced.

Are the people using these weapons taking advantage of buffs and debuffs? 

Because a few Banshee sonars or Xaku Gazes or Molecular Primes will make those weapons really great.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, Rantear said:

Here's an idea on how to make single-target weapons actually compete with AoE:

Add vortex to them.

But seriously, headshot bonus is nice and all, but with all the positive stuff on devstream, AoE vs Single target still seems to be affected by Warframe's identity crisis.
It's not just a shooter, it's a horde shooter, a third person horde shooter nonetheless, which makes aiming at the heads all that slightly bit harder.

Usually you either make beefy enemies that appear semi-often to make single target weapons viable.
(Comparatively speaking, not Eximus level beefy, Void Angel level beefy.)

Or... Saturation fire. Weapons should be spammable, ever taken Imperator Vandal to a low level mission? That's how a single target should be. It doesn't have to compete with Grakata tho, if it's semi-auto - make it so even landing body shots from a hip will still kill enemies in 1-2 shots, just don't make fire rate or reload speed unbearable, like it currently is for some weapons, it should be spammable - you saw an enemy, you deleted it, with only how fast your reaction is and how fast you can put crosshair over the enemy deciding how long said enemy lives.
In current realities, something like Exergis should ultimately have AoE, but you can make it compete with AoE, if you remove the constant reloading. However for Angel Hunting it is perfect, if only there were more Angels. Also a note - fall off distance on certain weapons (specifically shotguns) certaintly doesn't help.

Speaking in terms of Steel Path survival - you need to kill around 100 enemies per minute, I think, to keep up the life support, but if it takes you even 2 seconds to kill an enemy, you're already behind.
And there's obviously an issue on how to keep weapons feel unique in these conditions....

There's also bullet magnetism that I've heard is used in some games, since you've decided to buff headshots, increasing hitboxes of enemy heads might prove beneficial - like in Killing Floor, head hitboxes are almost twice the size of the models, and that game is in first person, meaning that their heads already take up more space on the screen, how often do you shoot an enemy in the head in Warframe, only to see the shot hit the body? Like look at the size of this lad's hitbox, and he takes up more space on the screen there than Void Angels do here.

  Reveal hidden contents

AoE kills more enemies faster. so they need to somehow make single target weapons to kill more enemies faster, instead they made single target weapons kill enemies harder but only when specific condition is met, which could've been a solution if we killed enemies in 10 shots, and they made it so we kill them in 5, but we kill them 1, and with the change we kill them in 1. At least for majority of the game. It'll kinda have some effect on Steel Path I guess, but you'll see like 20 constantly shuffling Grineer soldiers shooting at you, and headshotting them all will become problematic.

They did just change 1 global variable, so not much time wasted on a potentially ineffective change, although it'll help with Angels and Eidolons, so that's a plus.

There are already plenty of vortex and enemy grouping options. 

Your premise is flawed and assumes every player has to be solo and apparently has to, by some law, kill like a bramma.

Survival has stations dropped down to you by Lotus. You walk up to it and hold a button to give you more life support. You can space these out as well instead of pressing them all at once. 

There are multiple levels and factions in the game along with modding.....what exactly is "1 or 2 shots"? 

Is there some mathematical expression for "1 or 2 shots"?  Sounds incredibly vague and not well thought out. 

 

[DarkSkysz]

8 hours ago, Graavarg said:

"AoE spamming" is currently just too effective

Because DE made their game a S#&$ty grind fiesta.

Imagine if we could play something for fun and still get loot? So good, right?

But instead, DE chose to lock the new stuff behind a boring, long or even broken misson, that you have to repeat over 50 times...

 

Another proof that the guy that wants to nerf AOE have no f'ing idea how things works said that explosions can't do headshots... I mean, for #*!% sake, do he even understand what an explosion is? If you launch a grenade over a dummy head and let it explode, the dummy head will be gone. How the #*!% explosions can't hit the head?

[Luscious_Lilim]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There are already plenty of vortex and enemy grouping options. 

Your premise is flawed and assumes every player has to be solo and apparently has to, by some law, kill like a bramma.

Survival has stations dropped down to you by Lotus. You walk up to it and hold a button to give you more life support. You can space these out as well instead of pressing them all at once. 

There are multiple levels and factions in the game along with modding.....what exactly is "1 or 2 shots"? 

Is there some mathematical expression for "1 or 2 shots"?  Sounds incredibly vague and not well thought out. 

 

You don't have to be solo. But solo players should not be hurt by game direction, as there are plenty of gamers who are uncomfortable playing with strangers.
Elite Sanctuary Onslaught - everything on the map has to die constantly to maintain efficiency.
Steel Path Survival - everything on the map has to die constantly to maintain efficiency. This is not about Life Support, this is about drops per second, because SP is the most ideal place to farm resources due to increased drop chance.
ESO and SP Survival are not cases where it's about grouping enemies to make it easier, because you want all the enemies on the map to die as soon as possible, or, before they even get a chance to engage you. Elongating mission time by forcing you to 1 shot everything a few enemies at a time instead of all is not really increasing difficulty or adding to the game, it makes farming more annoying for people with less time to spend playing.
Besides that, AOE weapons feel fun for the user. Coming back to the game last year and abusing kuva & tenet weapons gave an adrenaline rush I had never felt before. It was way more interesting than using ignis wraith like the old days. Explosives are aesthetically cool

[Llympack]

Hello everyone,

I would like to give my opinion regarding the change (we can talk about nerves) about AoE weapons.

Overview change about AoE Weapons : https://www.warframe.com/fr/news/devstream-163-overview?utm_medium=organic-social&utm_campaign=2022-08-Devstream163Overview

Before continuing this reading (for the bravest), I invite you to read the possible changes to come in order to have all the cards in hand (the link is above).

---------------------------------

I will not go into detail on all the points, many are relevant and justify a change. The frustration of some players is understandable, myself, I can not play non-AoE weapons at leisure (I love you my Love Attica).

First my general opinion of why I think nerf the power of AoE weapons is more negative than constructive. 

For everyone, we have different reasons to play Warframe, whether it’s its history, the farm, its dynamic gameplay, etc... For me, one of the reasons, among others, is the fact of the sensation of power. I like to be more powerful, destroy an indecent number of enemies very quickly, I find it exciting. The arrival of the self-stagger and also the Kuva Bramma further amplified this joy, and I think bring more fun. 

This way of playing also made the game simpler and this is for me a good thing. If I play Warframe, it’s also because I don’t have a headache, I launch the game, I do my missions, I kill everything, it’s easy, fast and funny. Personally, most of the time, I don’t play Warframe to take the time to put strategies in place, take the time to aim, ... I prefer this kind of gameplay in a PvP game where this kind of behavior is better rewarded and more logical from a gameplay point of view.

 

I’m just going to talk about the two changes that I have a problem with, the first one being ammunition pick-up.

For the side, have a primary and secondary ammunition type, OK. On the other hand, the fact that the drop rate is lower and is compensated by a greater number of ammunition returned in order to nerve AoE weapons is a bad thing. This will force those who want to play this weapon to instead use their secondary weapon, which in view of the name and understanding is SECONDARY not PRIMARY 2. The PRIMARY weapon must be the most used weapon, it is normal after all, and this change does not go in that direction, because it will make the primary secondary weapon and the secondary weapon. I think this change is not a good thing.

 

The second change is the fact that when you kill with a main weapon, it no longer gives out main weapon ammunition. This change like the other will lead to overuse of the secondary weapon which will lead to a change Primary weapon becomes secondary and vice versa. The primary weapon must remain for me, the weapon primarily use. I would add that even in the case of medium-magazine weapons, if the latter does not hesitate too many bullets to kill the strong and more numerous enemies at the high level of the enemies, it will be necessary to use the secondary which sometimes is not enough to shoot down enemies, what could bring a situation where there would be a shortage of ammunition for both weapons (negative things in my opinion) (The situation remains quite rare and exceptional), I agree.

To conclude, I want to say that the changes related to the fact that AoE weapons no longer do damage through walls, the change of mods increasing the range of AoE and the boost of head damage are relevant and a good thing. 

 

 

One solution I could propose would be instead of making the gameplay less fun for all, would be to remove the problem for those who want it. Also, why not leave the choice of a matchmaking where each player could agree to join a random team where AoE weapons would simply be banned. A small button before doing its missions would easily allow. This would allow those who want to go quickly and simply, to join people who have AoE weapons. And for those who do not want AoE weapons, one would join matchmaking or all players would have more "classic" weapons. This perhaps less practical solution avoids unnecessary frustration, in my view.

 

Thanks to those who had the patience and motivation to read me, I obviously accept with pleasure reasoned feedback (whether for or against).

I would like to say one last time that this only reflects my opinion.

 

[Merrcenary]

30 минут назад, Llympack сказал:

I would like to give my opinion

one day... maybe ...  DE will start doing surveys in-game about upcoming changes instead of taking fun right away, because of group of whiners on reddit

[PsychicKitty]

Hey um...just a thought....just give players the white out effect and maybe the bell ringing effect if they get caught in their own blast radius that generally stops people in games from spamming at point blank.

I have a number of games and played some online games that did this.

You explode something at point blank you get a white screen for a bit and sound would get a bit wonky for a bit.

Thinking maybe DE should think about that.

Also...line of sight for AOE.....would be super unrealistic if you just turn off damage...I mean tge enemies hide right now behind a box....so now you can crouch no matter the range to take no damage would be super stupid.

I think walls and things should reduce damage maybe if it's thick enough prevent it.....but changing to line of sight....wow

That would make super long range shots fail and weapons like the Tennant thst you can control the rocket to go around corners or chase enemies by use use a lock on.....would simply stop working.

Of course I think DE should test all of this first though.   

I think the white out though would be very interesting though.

Just my opinion though

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

1 hour ago, Llympack said:

The second change is the fact that when you kill with a main weapon, it no longer gives out main weapon ammunition.

From reading the page

this is Not going to be in effect. it is only a proposal should AoE continue to be a problem.

[ThommiX]

They showed in the stream very clearly why they want to change this and why it is bad. This aoe nerf is welcome and they will nerf even more if these dont help.

They are doing very good job at it, coming to it at different angles instead of leadpipe nerf. They explained all the logic behind it in the stream.

Current aoe spam is not fun for majority at all. Only fun to the one doing it. So these nerfs increase fun to majority,which is just good. Run solo with your aoe spam,you can have your fun without taking it away from everyone else. People really need to start thinking how to play with team when running with one.

Even then, the problem remains of being able to afk farm missions without ever seeing enemies with just spamming aoe, which is not playing the game like they said.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 hours ago, Luscious_Lilim said:

You don't have to be solo. But solo players should not be hurt by game direction, as there are plenty of gamers who are uncomfortable playing with strangers.
Elite Sanctuary Onslaught - everything on the map has to die constantly to maintain efficiency.
Steel Path Survival - everything on the map has to die constantly to maintain efficiency. This is not about Life Support, this is about drops per second, because SP is the most ideal place to farm resources due to increased drop chance.
ESO and SP Survival are not cases where it's about grouping enemies to make it easier, because you want all the enemies on the map to die as soon as possible, or, before they even get a chance to engage you. Elongating mission time by forcing you to 1 shot everything a few enemies at a time instead of all is not really increasing difficulty or adding to the game, it makes farming more annoying for people with less time to spend playing.
Besides that, AOE weapons feel fun for the user. Coming back to the game last year and abusing kuva & tenet weapons gave an adrenaline rush I had never felt before. It was way more interesting than using ignis wraith like the old days. Explosives are aesthetically cool

Oh I see.

I've been playing awhile and have been on 30 day boosters for a year now so I never actually farm for resources personally. 

SP was only about having some fun fighting higher level enemies, it's main function for why it was implemented.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb UNO168:

what I believe is heading the right direction(buffing other aspects of the game so it keeps up with AOE weapon):
1. permanent buff for warframe (archon shards etc)
2. headshot damage buff for precision weapon
3. precision weapons are made inherently advantageous.

what I believe is heading the wrong path:
If more than 40% of players prefers AOE weapons maybe just maybe it's a rational and logical choice.
1. Why throw rock/spear at npc when you can throw a grenade and wipe the whole npc squad? if I play 12hrs a day of warframe the last thing I want to use is precision weapon to further strains my eyes.
2. Perhaps DE you're mistaking the appealing aspect/selling point of your game with something you deemed undesirable? Not every games has to be counter strike or rainbow six, maybe just maybe ppl like to use rocket launcher/grenade launcher/explosive arrow/flamethrower/explosive kunai/explosive boomerang/explosive soaker non-stop in a video game.
3. AOE weapons deal headshot damage is actually promoting skilled aim, some weapons can still be used so the explosion reach head first. Disabling headshot damage from AOE weapon is actually dumbing them down further.
4. Ppl will just find new way to play this game while not aiming like esport pro because we are not(they got paid to aim, do we?), there's literally tons of AOE warframe skills in the game, some even do 360 no-scope, are those gonna be next on the list once you're done with AOE weapons?
5. Is warframe made to play with precision weapons? a 3rd person shooter which your character already taking part of the view and then there's cosmetic which some literally obscuring the  entire crosshair accompanied by explosions of colors by skills/weapons. Do you think people would like to aim in an environment like this?

 

good points! that's not the point. it's not about gameplay or what's fun.

they have no idea about balance and have been designing rubbish lately. but exactly this garbage should be bought and formas etc. should be invested.
that's why they want to ruin all popular weapons. then the chance is high that players switch to garbage weapons.
when you understand that, it becomes clear what is happening here.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

good points! that's not the point. it's not about gameplay or what's fun.

they have no idea about balance and have been designing rubbish lately. but exactly this garbage should be bought and formas etc. should be invested.
that's why they want to ruin all popular weapons. then the chance is high that players switch to garbage weapons.
when you understand that, it becomes clear what is happening here.

The bramma was nerfed and is still popular. 

Nothing is nerfed to being unusable. It's just hyperbole. 

If a player mods correctly and actually knows how to play the game, a weapon will be good.

[Tiltskillet]

17 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

It depends, i'm not sure if AoE is currently dealing headshot damage to enemies caught in their explosion volume

They can do this, but it doesn't happen much without consciously trying to do so.  Even hitting a head directly with a projectile, the radial component seems to hit the body more often than not.  The reliable weapons for it have a detonation mechanic so that the projectile can be exploded overhead.  The rest need to rely on  strategic placement and some luck.  

That's AFAICT...it's something I've examined pretty closely in the Sim, but I've got far less practical experience with AoE weapons than a lot of players.

In any case, I'd be pretty shocked if more than a tiny percentage of people are using these weapons this way.

[Llympack]

Il y a 7 heures, PsychicKitty a dit :

Hey um...just a thought....just give players the white out effect and maybe the bell ringing effect if they get caught in their own blast radius that generally stops people in games from spamming at point blank.

I have a number of games and played some online games that did this.

You explode something at point blank you get a white screen for a bit and sound would get a bit wonky for a bit.

Thinking maybe DE should think about that.

Also...line of sight for AOE.....would be super unrealistic if you just turn off damage...I mean tge enemies hide right now behind a box....so now you can crouch no matter the range to take no damage would be super stupid.

I think walls and things should reduce damage maybe if it's thick enough prevent it.....but changing to line of sight....wow

That would make super long range shots fail and weapons like the Tennant thst you can control the rocket to go around corners or chase enemies by use use a lock on.....would simply stop working.

Of course I think DE should test all of this first though.   

I think the white out though would be very interesting though.

Just my opinion though

First of all, I thank you for your opinions, I think this is the best way forward.

For your idea of a visual indication in case of shooting too close, it seems pretty interesting. I think its could offer a nice nerve while leaving this type of gameplay for those who wish.

As for the line of sight, an adaptation depending on the situation will be necessary, so as not to make it a bit stupid, I agree.

[Llympack]

Il y a 6 heures, (PSN)haphazardlynamed a dit :

From reading the page

this is Not going to be in effect. it is only a proposal should AoE continue to be a problem.

Good day, and thank you for taking the time to respond. 

I did notice that this change is possible and not sure and some, my fourth sentence seems to indicate.;)

[Llympack]

Il y a 6 heures, ThommiX a dit :

They showed in the stream very clearly why they want to change this and why it is bad. This aoe nerf is welcome and they will nerf even more if these dont help.

They are doing very good job at it, coming to it at different angles instead of leadpipe nerf. They explained all the logic behind it in the stream.

Current aoe spam is not fun for majority at all. Only fun to the one doing it. So these nerfs increase fun to majority,which is just good. Run solo with your aoe spam,you can have your fun without taking it away from everyone else. People really need to start thinking how to play with team when running with one.

Even then, the problem remains of being able to afk farm missions without ever seeing enemies with just spamming aoe, which is not playing the game like they said.

Good day to you, and thank you for your answer.

Indeed, during the devstream, they indicated why such changes are to be expected, and I agree with the principle. Both examples speak for themselves, but two things.

The first, people who have this type of gameplay make its strategy, this strategy is not funny and can always be adapted with a power of Warframe for example.

Second point, he won’t get anything more to do this kind of thing, he won’t get any better rewards and won’t get a faster farm. This type of gameplay in no way harms the other player and therefore for me no problem.

 

Then you indicate that for the majority of players spam is not funny except for those who use them. Off, in my first post, I read that more players use this type of weapons, which makes me think that this argument is misplaced.

Second, I think that AoE spam is by no means, a non-face to play game, the principle of the game is a mission to be accomplished with large numbers of enemies to destroy, apart from its weapons completely fulfilled this function.

For the fact that some players find it bad to have one that destroys everything and they do nothing except go to the exit. I agree, I’ve been through this myself. I think my solution of offering an AoE or non-Aoe matchmaking sort would solve this problem and allow those who just want to finish a mission quickly or do it in a very simple way not to be frustrated.

I think and maintain that a pure nerve is a bad thing (this remains my opinion).

I look forward to your response in order to have a constructive debate.

[cyntreau]

I remember back when memeing strike was a thing, and all kinds of things were reworked to get rid of it, then self damage, then atterax walling, etc etc. Now it's going to happen all over again with explosives. At this point I'm surprised that DE still doesn't get it. If they are just riding out metas to keep the game relevant and profitable, they need to find another way. It could also just be DE misunderstanding what players want; why are we going around in circles? Players like things that are POWERFUL and COOL. That is literally all you need, yet instead it's a phoenix cycle of an old meta dying to make way for the next one and it's getting old. There can be an infinite number of overpowered options in the game and people will still try new things and come back for more. Yet for some reason, builds/mechanics keep getting phased out and it's a kick in the pants for players who have stuck around to create good builds and become accustomed only for the nature of the game to change and render their previous build work and passion laughably outdated. I get that in some ways this is necessary, but this is a prime example of Warframe harming it's most loyal players.