Can "hard content" even happen?

[Ventura_Highway]

15 hours ago, trst said:

And? The point was that they already tried that approach at making hard content. But ruined it by nerfing everything before finishing the system. Plus Steve also went on about it as an environment to test larger system changes to the game and that was never even attempted. DE killed the potential Railjack had by launching it unfinished and caving into the complaints before finishing it.

But the foundation clearly worked for creating difficulty even with our broken builds/gear in play, they just need to apply it to a more standard play environment.

I'd really need to know what system changes relevant to difficulty were implemented in Railjack that didn't make it. There are some obvious things like defined Roles (and splitting up the group) that made it in but overall, I am not privy to any concepts regarding refining the sense of difficulty and (on-foot) combat-variety that were noticeably implemented in Railjack.

 

15 hours ago, trst said:

And, to my understanding, the reason Trials had low engagement outside of the constant run killing bugs was its reliance on systems not present anywhere else in the game and poor explanations of them. It wasn't that it took effort, but that you had to put effort into something the game never taught you how to do while under pressure. Thus players would fail constantly without actually knowing why do due to a lack of proper instructions. Pair that with requiring your entire squad to understand it plus having forced co-op (just having less than 4 players instantly failed the run) and you've built a system designed to fail from the start.

What Trials needed was an introduction quest or a casual nerfed version of it where players could learn the mechanics. Not requiring players to seek communities built just to provide the tutorial DE didn't make.

Have you raided in other video games? The least someone can do in Destiny 2 before a raid is watch a video. I realize Warframe's a game someone can stick around and play a while but a slightly expanded perspective wouldn't be bad here.

[MutoManiac]

It has to be hard since people including myself die in missions. Seriously I die as Revenant cause I don’t know how to play him. I don’t die with the few frames I’m familiar with so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

1 hour ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Have you raided in other video games? The least someone can do in Destiny 2 before a raid is watch a video. I realize Warframe's a game someone can stick around and play a while but a slightly expanded perspective wouldn't be bad here.

You do know many Destiny 1 ~ 2 players do not watch Raid videos, go into Raids either expecting to get carried (specifically joining Raids were the rest can carry and the noob sits in a corner) or learn on the fly in the Raid itself, right? I know I didn't watch Raiding videos going into The Taken King raid because the party said they'd teach on the fly. Three fails at the end, got the hang of it, I was no longer the dead weight. 

Difference from D1 Raiding Community and WF is that WF had a bad habit of gate keeping on that aspect of the community. The rewards can be traded so just sell platinum and let the Raiders do all the farming. 

[(XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL]

If you want hard content then play 2 hours Steel Path with loki without going invisible.

I hate these sort of posts.

Stop whining. 

 

[---Merchant---]

26 minutes ago, (XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL said:

If you want hard content then play 2 hours Steel Path with loki without going invisible.

I hate these sort of posts.

Stop whining. 

 

Strange post, loki without invisibility is one of best steel path builds for endless modes. So I do not see how it would make for "hard content"
Do you even know that teams for endless missions used to be 4x loki? It was the meta frame for it.
Also nerfing yourself does not mean that you play hard content, it just means that you are playing easy content wrong on purpose.
In other words the game lacks challenge so much that you had to make your own fan-fiction of one being there.
It is much the same like watching badly writen show (rings of power) and imagining actors speaking better lines that make more sense while playing the series on Mute.
It does not make the series suddenly well writen.

I enjoy warframe the best when we are powerful gods deleting whole screen with no effort and the least after nerfs come, so i'm not even on the "make the game harder" side.

But it is much the same argument like telling me "go play level 1 missions" after some guns get nerfed to the ground  and are no longer any good in steel path, it simply does not adress the issue.
Just like stop whining is something we can send each other in endless loop, you whine about people whining and i whine about you whining.

[trst]

1 hour ago, Ventura_Highway said:

I'd really need to know what system changes relevant to difficulty were implemented in Railjack that didn't make it. There are some obvious things like defined Roles (and splitting up the group) that made it in but overall, I am not privy to any concepts regarding refining the sense of difficulty and (on-foot) combat-variety that were noticeably implemented in Railjack.

 

Have you raided in other video games? The least someone can do in Destiny 2 before a raid is watch a video. I realize Warframe's a game someone can stick around and play a while but a slightly expanded perspective wouldn't be bad here.

As I said in my first post in this thread:

19 hours ago, trst said:

content structured like release Railjack which was reliant on systems that have no/limited mod influence. Where the objective is to balance other smaller objectives unrelated to our builds where the overall "challenge" is in how efficient and fast we are without being able to solve every problem at once with one button press.

The difficulty of it, and why players found it ""impossible"" to run it solo, was needing to manage the objectives (fighter kills, crewship kills, and away objectives) all while keeping your ship alive and maintaining the resources needed to repair it. Especially in the Veil where your Railjack could get a hull breach in a matter of seconds. You'd need to keep fighting ships to maintain enough resources both for ship supplies and Revolite, take out Crewships quickly to keep from being constantly swarmed with boarding crew, get in and out of away objectives fast enough without your ship blowing up, and all while your ship would get an increasing number of hazards with fires and frozen doors.

And even when in a group everyone had to contribute to some part of this, and fast, as the amount of Revolite you could craft was limited as was the speed at which you could craft more. It's the only mode that didn't just reward speed and efficiency but required it, especially if you did it solo. 

 

And what does it matter what Destiny or any other games do? Trials released using mechanics, like mandatory co-op, that aren't seen anywhere else in the game. But it outright required learning from a live 3rd party just to learn how to get around all the progression stopping softlocks. Like requiring a Nekros exploit in Jordas Verdict to deal with a softlock caused by enemies not spawning (until they patched that and, iirc, made the Trial impossible to finish for a while).

[RafMatador22]

It won't happen, if you do any difficult content that requires teamwork, solo players will complain, if there's a difficult solo mission, team players will complain, that's why rarely anything engaging happens in this game.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

9 hours ago, CarrotSalad said:

 

PVE style challenge where you need to study something like a 12000 word thesis on all the mechanics involved to avoid causing a wipe?

 

MMO style raids would be pretty fun. 

 Maybe if we had more boss fights in the style of Jackal or raid bosses in other games.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

5 hours ago, ---Merchant--- said:

Hard games for console are so rare that you can not stop hearing about them when they release (dark souls, tokyo souls, china souls....)

 

Roguelike games....

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

It has to be hard since people including myself die in missions. Seriously I die as Revenant cause I don’t know how to play him. I don’t die with the few frames I’m familiar with so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Stack at least 275% power strength, cast second ability. 

You cannot die as long as second ability is up, when it gets low, recast the ability.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL said:

If you want hard content then play 2 hours Steel Path with loki without going invisible.

I hate these sort of posts.

Stop whining. 

 

And when did I whine? 

I simply pondered if de will succeed in making hard content or if raids, trials, and anything afterward will fall flat on its face within a week.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

4 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

Not till DE takes away 99% of our power , rework damage , EHP , mod system and reintroduce stamina bar .

U can do all that playing without mods.

The thing is, this game is a power fantasy if you take that away it turns into COD Black Ops in zombie horde mode. The only viable way to make really difficult content is a raid where the enemies are other warframes with all their abilities.

[SpiritTeA]

22 hours ago, Voltage said:

Yes, we did. They were called Trials. The "hard" part of the mission was team communication and competent players in a team working efficiently to complete 3 missions in a row. The majority of players didn't like them because they didn't stoop to the low bar of players that want to solo Revenant cheese or let On Call Crew wipe a tileset while they make a sandwich. It didn't help that the mode locked the most prestigious enhancements at the time (namely Arcane Grace, Guardian, Avenger and Energize). The ironic part is that back then people called Trial puzzles "not Warframe", but here in 2022, that is closer to Warframe than most of what we get these days.

I think DE is more than capable of making new content that has older players thinking about arsenal choices and cheeses being reeled in. The issue is the playerbase has been nurtured for a decade now that missions should have almost no fail conditions. I still feel that Self-Revives were a bit of a mistake, and Arbitrations were made worse with the addition of revives in my opinion.

I just have to tell. How the F*£* are you wrong dude. You wrote complete BS, trials were same cheese walk after a while just like anything else. Team communication isn’t hard. We were making Nightmare Vay Hek trial just in 4 people, I was playing full range Banshee so all enemies in permanent control, and I don’t really remember what other people were doing, but there for sure was Trinity, Necros (instantly revive with 1st spell augment) and someone else. How is this “Super-end-game” content when I didn’t have even rank10 vitality on that moment in the game? 

Cheese is cheese. It has always been, and it will be. The only way of making “hard” content is only TNW style content, where developers control everything, and it’s hard to cheese it with “unintentional gameplay”. 

[Joewoof]

12 hours ago, (PSN)CeetjeBeetje said:

Really? I'm a pretty bad player and I was able to clear it without too much trouble. Where are they getting stuck?

Obviously, you're not nearly as bad as you think you are. Some players can't beat the Amar Archon after 20+ retries and gave up. Others didn't understand what "artillery cannon" even meant and just kept dying in Railjack. A few couldn't get past the stealth parts and kept getting veiled over and over again. It's all pretty cringe, but that's partly why we can't have nice things.

[MutoManiac]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Stack at least 275% power strength, cast second ability. 

You cannot die as long as second ability is up, when it gets low, recast the ability.

In a lot of SP missions, I tend to run out of energy and need to do all kinds of acrobatic maneuvers with operator or other methods to get some back. It’s at that point, I usually start dying. It was the same with Saryn although I’m hitting a rhythm with her and finally can go without dying (mostly). Like most games, if you move like crazy, you can’t really die,  but that takes a lot of key bashing and some like me are not crazy about playing that way cause hands start hurting when playing for long periods and starts feeling like a job instead of fun. I do get your point, but it does take a good long while to get powerful as a frame, so easy/easier should also be a reward.

[Hypernaut1]

Hard content happens, but the players tend not to like it.

[taiiat]

yes, it can. by the Mission being about more than W+M1 or by being more creative with Enemies and shying away from the status quo of most Enemies being "dude with a Gun" rather than something semi-relevant itself.

but good luck with the Playerbase ever letting the game do anything like that.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

with the current methods of acquiring power, between trading, a useless & meaningless MR system, etc - any new player can just watch a youtube video and cut&paste the answer. 

could it be hard _for everyone_? sure. would the current generation of players play? no.  plenty of new players find current content hard and that is the target group DE aims for.   But to make a "hard mode" would require a revamp of almost every mechanic in the game from mods to abilities, to enemy scaling, to asset acquisition, etc..  far more effort than worth the payoff.  And they also already stated they don't want to make content only accessible to a minority of players.

If difficulty is what you are after, you are playing the wrong game.

 

 

 

[RobWasHere]

Probably not, unless we stack as many negative modifiers, nullifiers, knockdowns and damage attenuation so game would feel just unfun to play. The edgecase are Grendel missions where mods do not work, but even there you can force through with some frames better than other.
Power creep was implemented suddenly with a huge spike with first acolyte mods, now is too late to smooth the dps curve. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

Hard content is 100% possible. 

The problem is the second you take anything away anything players have invested in: They riot. 

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

 But to make a "hard mode" would require a revamp of almost every mechanic in the game from mods to abilities, to enemy scaling, to asset acquisition, etc..

I'm wondering if this is what Duviri might accomplish. Since the world operates on a reset mechanic your never going to have the same level of power each time you play. 

And since it's accessible before The New War Quest. At this point, it might be an interesting way to implement "hard content" without excluding everyone in the process.

It's also completely separated from everything else in the game. 

They could also accomplish something similar if we eventually head to the Tau system where: New Star-Chart with a sort of "soft reset" which will also allow for the older star chart to remain as is, at this point some compromises have to be made. New areas for hard content to exist might be the only way to accomplish it.

 

[Traumtulpe]

On 2022-12-08 at 2:23 AM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Can "hard content" even happen?

Since balance doesn't exist in this game, "hard" can mostly only happen through mechanics, not through health and/or damage numbers. Only problem is, mechanics are too much effort. I mean, with the recent update all DE had to do was give out correct rotation rewards and properly spawn 5 units every 5 minutes - and everything about that was bugged. The reward were bugged, the spawns were bugged, the drops were bugged.

Since we have invincible Warframes, we need telegraphed instakill hits on enemies that bypass invincibility. Since we deal infinite damage, we need enemies with multiple body parts that need to be destroyed or multiple phases, etc.

Mostly all we get is timers though. Timers are easy to implement. Add a reskinned mission and some bugged rewards and you've got yourself an average update.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

13 hours ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

In a lot of SP missions, I tend to run out of energy and need to do all kinds of acrobatic maneuvers with operator or other methods to get some back. It’s at that point, I usually start dying. It was the same with Saryn although I’m hitting a rhythm with her and finally can go without dying (mostly). Like most games, if you move like crazy, you can’t really die,  but that takes a lot of key bashing and some like me are not crazy about playing that way cause hands start hurting when playing for long periods and starts feeling like a job instead of fun. I do get your point, but it does take a good long while to get powerful as a frame, so easy/easier should also be a reward.

Typically I run Zenurik so my energy bar is always at max. 

 

If you don't run Zenurik I suggest arcane energize/dispensary/Voruna ability/emergence dissipate.

Revenant barely uses energy and therefore you only need to worry about maintaining his 2. His 1 is also free when used on enemies stunned by his 2, which allows his 2 to deplete less quickly. 

Because of this, pretty much any of these methods will work on him.

 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

13 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Hard content happens, but the players tend not to like it.

It is like the archons or the zariman at first, difficult here is something that people demand to always nerf and let's not talk about the AOE, later the horde teachers start talking about it being a horde game and that nerfing the AOE is wrong, as if the game has not always been a horde game even when AOEs self-kill them. These people want everything easy and then demand difficulty, is the usual.

[EdinaMonsoon]

stop relying on revenant and tackle the challenge of learning to survive without invincibility 👾

learning how to build non-meta weapons to their max can add a layer of difficulty. unconventional builds that require you have good aim can also add to it. a lot of my kitguns are uber strong as long as i maintain headshot kills.

[EdinaMonsoon]

also the amount of people who were angry at how hard the new war boss fights were and couldn't exit the quest shows that actual hard content isn't something that'll be popular enough for DE to invest in. i've seen nightwave challenges that were meant to be tough get sliced in half for accessibility.