Quitting New war quest (and other probably)

[ReddyDisco]

Still haven't done the new war? that's rough

[TARINunit9]

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Before you start the quest you are warned that this is the case. You have all the information. 

10 hours ago, xMarvin732 said:

"Commit to THE NEW WAR?

THE NEW WAR requires several hours to complete. You will be able to pause the game, and your progress will be saved between missions.

Prepare wisely. Loadout access will be limited and regular Warframe activities will not be available until this quest is completed!

THE NEW WAR contains sequences of violence, frightening situations involving teens, and depictions of emotional abuse. It is intended for mature audiences.

Type NEWWAR to confirm."

 

Its not misleading and its a good warning.

 

10 hours ago, TheKurtiStryke said:

the game:

specifically warns you about the quest beeing  several hours long, your loadout is limited and normal warframe gameplay is locked until the quest's completion.

 

player: whatever, let me play!

also the player: yooo, can i quit please!? it's taking too long.

 

my dude, you where warned, and you still accepted.

 

If I may pipe in, and quickly clarify that this isn't my argument but I do think it's commonly misrepresented.

The argument is NOT "oh I understood the warning but I still want to quit anyway."

The argument is "DE should never have designed the quest like this in the first place." The argument is "a quest you can't leave is fundamentally bad design no matter what, and no amount of warnings would make it good design."

[Raarsi]

10 hours ago, xMarvin732 said:

"Commit to THE NEW WAR?

THE NEW WAR requires several hours to complete. You will be able to pause the game, and your progress will be saved between missions.

Prepare wisely. Loadout access will be limited and regular Warframe activities will not be available until this quest is completed!

THE NEW WAR contains sequences of violence, frightening situations involving teens, and depictions of emotional abuse. It is intended for mature audiences.

Type NEWWAR to confirm."

 

Its not misleading and its a good warning.

 

What that warning doesn't tell you is that the majority of the more difficult gameplay is NOTHING like what Warframe is visually advertised as to the point where it genuinely feels like it was designed by people who thought they were making something for a completely different game.  At least with anything remotely similar, TWW is designed as a tutorial on operator abilities, and Duviri is "intended" to be beginner content, which if anything promotes the theory that TNW story should be nerfed--yes, it can be done with level 1 everything by some players, but they do not and never will make up the majority of players currently trying to do that content.  The icing on this godawful cake too has to be that Drifter items are available for plat during customization in the TNW questline at a point where you can't trade in-game for plat and thus leaving buying plat as the only option for getting it, making it almost seem like a genuine sleaze tactic on part of DE.

I think another question that DE has to be asked isn't just if there should be a backdoor option out of a mission midway that actively saves your progress despite not needing that information to be displayed, but rather why DE believed this to be a good idea in the first place.  While the possibility of lazy programming remains a rather slim chance, it is still unfortunately a chance, although I would wager that the main reason as to why would be simply that DE overvalued their own storytelling capability, leading to the belief that this story was good enough to warrant something that more popular games with better story writers avoid doing unless under more extreme circumstances.

 

6 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Their code is a mess, you might not know this but Warframe is written in Lua.

Maybe that's why they named the moon that in-game: because that's where you have to go for the code to make any sense.

Edited January 3 by Raarsi

[trst]

13 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

 

If I may pipe in, and quickly clarify that this isn't my argument but I do think it's commonly misrepresented.

The argument is NOT "oh I understood the warning but I still want to quit anyway."

The argument is "DE should never have designed the quest like this in the first place." The argument is "a quest you can't leave is fundamentally bad design no matter what, and no amount of warnings would make it good design."

Even if it's bad design those are still the terms players agreed to before starting. If it was at all a concern that a player might not be able to/want to finish the quest then they shouldn't have accepted it in the first place. Plus it's not like the content of New War should have been much of a surprise as there've had previous quests that hit players with gear checks (Sacrifice with the Amp check) and ""skill"" checks (Chimera's "stealth" check and the forced Operator fights in other quests).

Someone who made it to the point to start the New War should have already gone through quests that'd have prepared them for the quest and that have taught them to improve their gear if it's lacking. And if they struggled with those previously they should have thought twice before accepting the terms of starting New War.

Now again sure this might be bad design but it's only the player's fault if they got stuck and can't finish it.

[PollexMessier]

I think what New war really needs are gear/skill checks. Force the player to go through a mission or two with skill requirements comparable to what's in the quest. Maybe have a stealth section in chimera prologue similar to the drifter stealth sections in TNW. Don't give players infinite revives in the sacrifice so they can't brute force it and instead actually need a decent amp and survivable operator to progress. Make the Teshin and Veso's portions of the quest come before kahls, and not lock the player into new war until both of them are completed, so the player gets at least some idea of what the boss difficulty in the quest is gonna be like. Because Veso and Teshin's segments both have a boss and don't have any direct impact on the game world like Kahls does so they can believably be happening without any changes to the star chart besides hologram teshin. Bring back the requirement to destroy a murex crystal with paracesis and reduce the crafting cost of paracesis to a more reasonalbe 170-300 ducats, or just outright give it to the player after chimera prologue, so they have the chance to level it up and put mods on it before TNW... A lot of changes could be made to make the transition into the quest a lot smoother and less likely to get you stuck.

And for gods sake just remove the necramech requirement and slap some downed necramechs in the section we need them for in the quest cus that grind is just completely unnecessary .

[schilds]

Oh not this old argument again.

30 minutes ago, trst said:

Someone who made it to the point to start the New War should have already gone through quests that'd have prepared them for the quest

This is false. 

No other content has the same *combination* of restrictions on it as The New War. The New War applies *every* possible restriction *simultaneously*. No other content does this, which means that all other content always has *some* way around. You can play co-op. You can change your loadout. You can back out, go farm better gear and try again. You can die as many times as you like and attrit your way through. There's no time pressure. ETC.

Yes, you can find each of these restrictions individually or in smaller combinations at some point or other in other content, but not *all together, simultaneously*.

That means, even if you can *choose to apply skill* to other content, you can also *always choose to circumvent the skill required*. Hence they are not good "skill checks" and do not *guarantee* the player who has "passed" them will be prepared for what follows. That means someone can make it through the entire game up until The New War without ever having been tested on the skill required for The New War. 

Take The Sacrifice. You can "die" as many times as you like in Stalker fight and he does *not* regenerate shields or health. That means you can attrit him to death. Hence, *not* a skill check for the Drifter archon fights.

Take The War Within. There is *no* time pressure for any of the operator segments.

None of the MR tests are any good either.

4 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

I think what New war really needs are gear/skill checks. Force the player to go through a mission or two with skill requirements comparable to what's in the quest. Maybe have a stealth section in chimera prologue similar to the drifter stealth sections in TNW. Don't give players infinite revives in the sacrifice so they can't brute force it and instead actually need a decent amp and survivable operator to progress. Make the Teshin and Veso's portions of the quest come before kahls, and not lock the player into new war until both of them are completed, so the player gets at least some idea of what the boss difficulty in the quest is gonna be like.

Oh thank god. Someone who actually knows the content of this game and isn't theory crafting "skill checks" out of non-existence.

 

The only saving grace for The New War is that it's not *that* hard, and that means probably only a tiny tiny minority of players (who DE have decided they can live without) are going to get stuck on it.

Also, maybe now that Duviri is there early on maybe that changes things a bit.

[CephalonCarnage]

52 minutes ago, trst said:

Plus it's not like the content of New War should have been much of a surprise as there've had previous quests that hit players with gear checks (Sacrifice with the Amp check) and ""skill"" checks (Chimera's "stealth" check and the forced Operator fights in other quests).

garbage. Those other quests were trivial, the examples given were there to teach the mechanic, not use it. I refer to the Excal umbra fight - zap him with your mote amp until he dies. In that quest, you can die a thousand times, but every time you will come back and Umbra will not have regained his health. You will always win. Its like that because those quests were written to showcase the new stuff, highlight the story, and your skill was irrelevant. The only reason you had to do it was to pretend you were involved in the storyline.

TNW was the only one that had the quest have actual gameplay. And not even warframe gameplay at that.

27 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

And for gods sake just remove the necramech requirement and slap some downed necramechs in the section we need them for in the quest cus that grind is just completely unnecessary

The number of people who were hyped for TNW who went and purchased a necramech solely to unlock it should tell you everything you need to know.

[0bsi]

22 minutes ago, schilds said:

Also, maybe now that Duviri is there early on maybe that changes things a bit.

I'm not sure it is a starting option any more?  A friend started playing a day or so ago, and said they didn't get the Duviri option at start (Because I'd told them NOT to do it).  I don't know for sure if they were somehow confused and didn't notice it... or if it has now been removed as a starting option.

[schilds]

1 minute ago, 0bsi said:

I'm not sure it is a starting option any more?  A friend started playing a day or so ago, and said they didn't get the Duviri option at start (Because I'd told them NOT to do it).  I don't know for sure if they were somehow confused and didn't notice it... or if it has now been removed as a starting option.

They removed it as an alternative starting path. Now you always do Awakening first, but you can still do The Duviri Paradox after Vor's Prize.

[0bsi]

1 minute ago, schilds said:

They removed it as an alternative starting path. Now you always do Awakening first, but you can still do The Duviri Paradox after Vor's Prize.

Ahh, good to know - thanks

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

6 minutes ago, 0bsi said:

I'm not sure it is a starting option any more?  A friend started playing a day or so ago, and said they didn't get the Duviri option at start (Because I'd told them NOT to do it).  I don't know for sure if they were somehow confused and didn't notice it... or if it has now been removed as a starting option.

It's not a second start anymore but you can still get it after beating Vor's prize so it's still pretty early.

Oh well someone else posted while I was making coffee... You should still recommend it to your friend, regular circuit gives easy access to Warframes, they won't have to deal with rng

Edited January 3 by (XBOX)C11H22O11

[0bsi]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

You should still recommend it to your friend, regular circuit gives easy access to Warframes, they won't have to deal with rng

That is a valid point I suppose..... 

But personally I think that doing Duviri without having done any of the preceding quests to actually understand what's going on and the significance of a lot of it, is doing a disservice to their experience of the story. 

2 of my friends did Durviri when it came out, even though one of them was still very new (So didn't even know what operators were).  The other one was a bit further along, but we'd also talked lore, so they had heard of Zariman and such....  -- from talking to them, they don't really understand/appreciate what was going on there and how it relates to the rest of Warframe lore ....   and one other friend held off (at my suggestion) until getting there the "proper" way, and agreed that they think the story is much better doing it that way.  

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

8 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

Moreover, at least last time I had need to care about this, interpreted scripts often didn't count as "code" but rather as "game assets" for purposes of console certification. Meaning you could fix issues in Lua scripts in game assets without having to go through cert like you would for an entire new client build, because the actual game binary was not changing. I don't know if that part is still the case, but it would not surprise me in the least.

You can say the same about Java, C#, Python, JavaScript, PHP, etc.. are they also just game assets? It makes no sense. You might as well use a proper programming language and compile your code into a DLL to call it a game asset.

 

8 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

Almost any project is a disaster internally after ten years, game or otherwise, unless a lot of care is taken to ensure otherwise. Any software developer who's had the misfortune to inherit a large and elderly project can attest to the tangled mess of "this is a temporary fix" and "well, I'll come up with a better way to do this later" code that starts to accumulate like dryer lint.

Of course, that's literally the sole reason why they are making Soulframe, they're tired of maintaining legacy Warframe codebase.

Edited January 3 by NorthernDarkIceSoul

[TheKurtiStryke]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

 

If I may pipe in, and quickly clarify that this isn't my argument but I do think it's commonly misrepresented.

The argument is NOT "oh I understood the warning but I still want to quit anyway."

The argument is "DE should never have designed the quest like this in the first place." The argument is "a quest you can't leave is fundamentally bad design no matter what, and no amount of warnings would make it good design."

When it came out, before playing the quest, i made sure to finish/complete everything i had/wanted to do in warframe and make sure i had enough time to enjoy and/or finish the quest....if people just start the quest(despite fully understanding the warning) and then after 1-2 hours they get mad they cannot leave the quest, well, it's on them! 

it's a special quest that deeply changes some traits of the game and the lore itself, and man if it adds a lot of important stuff,...it's not like every quest is like this and locks you outside the majority of the content, so, i think an exception(or 2) are acceptable no?

Edited January 3 by TheKurtiStryke

[MutoManiac]

If I’m not mistaken, DE proposed a solution which was pay to skip that nonsense. But everyone here opposed it and they backed off. If they had to suffer through the parts they didn’t like, so should you was the reasoning most of the time. They were also worried you might not experience the lore, blah f@#$&# blah. I can’t see why anyone should care who skipped what as the whole games gives you alternative ways to progress and enjoy yourself.

So DE’s problem is that they actually listen to player wishes/whining too much. People should realize that as game developers, they might know a bit more about designing games than their player base. Sure they may need to tweak this and that,  but they mostly know what they are doing.

[Aruquae]

“tHeY dID WArN yOu” 

But of course you probably thought you were prepared with all your powerful gear in check. Then you realize you can’t use said gear. Definitely your fault for not knowing you will use entirely different gear, with an entirely different move set and strategy, completely out of your element. /s 

[trst]

7 hours ago, schilds said:

This is false. 

No other content has the same *combination* of restrictions on it as The New War. The New War applies *every* possible restriction *simultaneously*. No other content does this, which means that all other content always has *some* way around. You can play co-op. You can change your loadout. You can back out, go farm better gear and try again. You can die as many times as you like and attrit your way through. There's no time pressure. ETC.

Yes, you can find each of these restrictions individually or in smaller combinations at some point or other in other content, but not *all together, simultaneously*.

That means, even if you can *choose to apply skill* to other content, you can also *always choose to circumvent the skill required*. Hence they are not good "skill checks" and do not *guarantee* the player who has "passed" them will be prepared for what follows. That means someone can make it through the entire game up until The New War without ever having been tested on the skill required for The New War. 

Take The Sacrifice. You can "die" as many times as you like in Stalker fight and he does *not* regenerate shields or health. That means you can attrit him to death. Hence, *not* a skill check for the Drifter archon fights.

Take The War Within. There is *no* time pressure for any of the operator segments.

None of the MR tests are any good either.

 

7 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

garbage. Those other quests were trivial, the examples given were there to teach the mechanic, not use it. I refer to the Excal umbra fight - zap him with your mote amp until he dies. In that quest, you can die a thousand times, but every time you will come back and Umbra will not have regained his health. You will always win. Its like that because those quests were written to showcase the new stuff, highlight the story, and your skill was irrelevant. The only reason you had to do it was to pretend you were involved in the storyline.

TNW was the only one that had the quest have actual gameplay. And not even warframe gameplay at that.

The point is that if someone struggled with those previous quests at all they should have had the idea that they're unprepared for that content. Even if they brute forced those they still intentionally went through that struggle, did nothing about it, then willingly accepted the New War lockout. If a player refuses to learn from experience then accepts something with consequences that'll inevitably involve those mechanics they shouldn't be surprised when they suffer from their own inaction.

Umbra taught that your Amp/Operator has relevance, Chimera (and even some MR tests) taught that avoiding line of sight is something you should learn, and the Railjack requirement for the quest should have indicated that some RJ progression is necessary. While the Veso, Teshin, and Kahl segments are glorified puzzles that various parts of the game should have taught the skills necessary to figure them out yourself (as if matching colors and reading text prompts is even a "puzzle").

Again the lockout is probably a bad idea in the first place but it is there and the game already put players through the same/similar enough tasks previously. If they struggled during those then they should have thought twice before agreeing to be locked out of the game.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Personally, I think there should be an option to quit the New War. I'll explain why in a bit, but also, I want to preface everything with the acknowledgement, that I personally have no idea about the technical, behind the scene, video game mechanics of how difficult, possible, etc it would be to give such options. What the trade offs would be, since, I also generally think, that if it could have been done easy, it would have already been done. 

Also, I want to say something that comes from a sincere, kind and empathy based place, and its that video games often invoke and incur challenge, as an idea, as a gameplay element, as something thats a tool, for various measure. How people confront such difficulties can be... nuanced, wide spread, and also in fluctuation. I am getting older. When I was younger, I had exceptional hand eye skills. They are still relatively pretty good, but they have deteriorated a bit. For each individual, there are going to be respective issues that may affect and influence them. When New War was play tested and run through, by DE or whoever, it probably wasn't too terribly difficult. I progressed though myself with no issues, but I expected to. That being said, even if people did do a lot of Warframes harder challenges that might be comparable... For some, that might have been like years ago... Warframe is like 10 years. Also a lot can happen to people in the mean time. Yes, sometimes its something that can be overcome, like say... I do think a lot of people who got stuck in New War, will, because of frustration and pressure. Its very common for most people, when they hit a wall, to experience a little bit of frustration and pressure. Then funnily enough, pressure and frustration, for many can lead to worst performance, which creates a compounding effect. If I personally had to consider one trick or skill, that has benefitted me, when I play games... is that I am really good at sensing and understanding how frustration and internal pressure can worsen my abilities and then avoiding that. Human brain is extremely potent and powerful pattern recogniser, that lets us do absurdly cool things, but internal pressure and frustration often diminishes that... I mean, depending on the situation, that can actually be of benefit, like if we feel outside pressure from a dangerous environment and we need surges of adrenaline... but thats real life. Video games we need to put into a different context and respond accordingly if we can... 

Anyway, even with that understood, sometimes the difficulty or pressure isn't so much a mental issue but some other hard capped issue, beyond our control. Even if for the overall Warframe player base, it might be a rare issue, its still very important to take into consideration, and so something that shouldn't hard lock people out of what might be their favourite game. The issue is just what DE can do to accommodate players. 

[TARINunit9]

10 hours ago, trst said:

Now again sure this might be bad design but it's only the player's fault if they got stuck and can't finish it.

This sentence looks like a massive oxymoron to me. If you admit it's bad design, then you cannot put 100% of the blame on the player, that's what "bad design" means

(Also this is only tangentially related, but I don't think the "Amp Check" as you call it in the Sacrifice is comparable to the Railjack check in New War. Let me know if you want me to go into why)

[Zimzala]

To all of you that think simply because the game gave a warning that this design is 'valid and good', you don't understand the problem, or you are willfully promoting a ableism, or you are just jerks, take your pick.

This inability of being able to drop out of the New War bit is the worst design choice the game maker has ever made, regardless of the monetary numbers remaining stable, the overall churn, etc. with the decision seemingly not impacting the bottom line, due to new-player adoption rates.

I even took the time to go back and finish it, with virtually no real playtime since, because it shows me just how bad the game maker can be, but also shows me just how intolerant and ignorant the player base is generally and that the game maker supports this POV.

All of the humans with reflexes and time are literally seemingly incapable of even understanding not everyone on the planet is like them, yeah this is a typical human failing, but it's been exaggerated here tenfold with the New War.

You can talk about how cool and powerful you are until the heat death of the universe because you can complete the scenario and anyone 'worthy' could as well, and you will still not understand, because you choose to be a jerk.

I have hundreds of dollars spent on WF and I enjoyed my time playing, still even want to play a mission now and then, but I have some level of self esteem left and I refuse to give them any more of my money until they change this stupid design.

So, to all of the ableists that think 'everyone should just...', go jump. Really, you are being royal jerks and sadly many of you know it, you just like to feel superior over your in-game reflexes.

To the developers that implemented this terrible design, please learn from your mistake and fix the worst one you ever made, unless you enjoy creating a player base of ableist jerks, because that's what you have done.

[fo3nixz]

@bitbucketprobaly best is to contact support mayb? and ask nicely if they can revert this for u, since u hard stuck

[Silligoose]

On 2024-01-02 at 9:13 PM, bitbucket said:

It has been YEARS, give us an option to quit the New War...

Over the last few years some of DE's decisions and actions (or inaction in this case) really showed how little they actually care for some of the demographics of the community, or the community as a whole to be honest.... Decisions like locking players into a lengthy quest consisting largely of "filler-content" gameplay with a skill requirement higher than their "endgame content" and apparently not being able to help players get out of it are stark reminders that they just really don't care all that much.

Not to mention even as this is going on, they did find the time to consider allowing players to skip this very content, for a price of course.

[Packetdancer]

2 hours ago, trst said:

The point is that if someone struggled with those previous quests at all they should have had the idea that they're unprepared for that content. Even if they brute forced those they still intentionally went through that struggle, did nothing about it, then willingly accepted the New War lockout. If a player refuses to learn from experience then accepts something with consequences that'll inevitably involve those mechanics they shouldn't be surprised when they suffer from their own inaction.

As a counterpoint to this... if you struggled with the Sacrifice, you can put the quest aside and go grind out a better amp, then tackle it again. If you struggled with railjack missions, you can put the harder ones aside and do some lower-level ones to get more railjack/plexus mods and level your intrinsics. Etc.

I would in fact argue that it is sort of the overall expected Warframe gameplay loop when you're starting out: do things, eventually hit a wall, stop, improve gear, bust through wall, continue until the next wall.

This is especially true if you're a newer player; now you start at Vor's Prize and it's a straight shot through to Whispers in the Wall, and from observing newer Tenno who didn't get scared off by the modding system, it's very easy to hit walls that longer-term players didn't simply because those vets had more hours and more gear amassed by the time a given piece of content came out. Heck, someone can potentially hit War Within (and get access to amps) and then try to embark on the Sacrifice on the same day now, meaning there's no rational reason to think they'd have an amp better than the Mote already by the time they did.

In defiance of that, gameplay as Drifter (or Kahl, or Veso-R) in the New War is not content you've previously experienced... but if you hit a wall there, you cannot back out and improve. There's no way to improve your gear as Drifter in there (short of advancing to where you get Nataruk), much less Veso-R or Kahl. And sure, it's easy to say "well, there's plenty of other games that have gameplay sort of like Drifter" and I'll even grant that it's true, but those games aren't Warframe.

(I mean, how many posts did we see complaining about Duviri when it first released because it "wasn't Warframe"?)

Yeah, the New War warns you that once you start it you're locked out of content until you finish, and it warns you that "arsenal access will be limited"... sure, I'll accept those arguments. But most people I know seem to have interpreted that as "you'll lose access to your ship or something, and be restricted to whatever loadout you had active going in" so pick the loadout they find comfy and familiar... and then end up playing as Drifter.

I feel like the issue here isn't that the New War makes you play as Drifter, or even that you have basically one viable play-style for the Drifter sections. It isn't that the quest is objectively hard (it isn't, though it might be subjectively difficult given that different players play differently). It isn't that there are new gameplay elements introduced. It isn't even (entirely) that folks can't back out to try again later!

But all of those things taken together does strike me as potential trouble... and the posts like this which we see turn up periodically are, I think, evidence of that.

[bitbucket]

@fo3nixz  was told to pound sand by support.

[schilds]

4 hours ago, trst said:

The point is that if someone struggled with those previous quests at all they should have had the idea that they're unprepared for that content.

What they would have learned from those previous quests is the game is lenient.

The game built hundreds or thousands* of hours of a specific set of expectations and then threw out a "nope, this game is not for you after all".

 

* Live service, remember, we're talking people playing prior to the release of TNW. This is *not* actually a single player game you play through linearly. Only a new player will experience a fairly straight run of "checks" up to TNW.

 

4 hours ago, trst said:

The point is that if someone struggled with those previous quests at all they should have had the idea that they're unprepared for that content. Even if they brute forced those they still intentionally went through that struggle, did nothing about it, then willingly accepted the New War lockout. If a player refuses to learn from experience then accepts something with consequences that'll inevitably involve those mechanics they shouldn't be surprised when they suffer from their own inaction.

You haven't thought this through.

Even if the previous content doesn't make for great checks, *most* people will probably have run some of it as a "check" without using any alternatives offered. Either that or they quit, game filters working as intended. So who do you think will go through *everything* and *always* use the "escape" hatch that is *always* on offer prior to TNW, only to find there isn't one in TNW?

Someone who *has* to.

Edited January 3 by schilds