Yareli is not the worst Warframe in the game (spoiler alert: it's Caliban)

[-Krism-]

8 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

It's insanely impossible to suck at this game. 

*Looks at the people who couldn't do basic thinking during TNW*

[PublikDomain]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

Sentient Wrath: Tied to one of the worst crowd control effects ever created in this decade (Lifted status) 

I unironically really like Sentient Wrath... on any frame but Caliban. CC is CC, so while Lifted is generally atrocious it does disable enemies the same as any other. And it adds to that a damage buff that stacks with other damage buffs. It's got decent range and lasts just long enough to be useful without being totally annoying. I have Sentient Wrath on my Yareli and it's like it was made for her. I've even got it on my Protea now to give her some CC and do silly things with her turrets. I hope people continue to think it's terrible so it gets a good augment.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

And I think you'll revise your own evaluation  considerably once you play her more.  (If you do.  Her play style is not to everyone's taste.).

It may change once I get prime but I honestly don't see more than Pillage. Gun (1st) is meh. 4th restricts your movement & weapon usage. 4th just creates CC which is not great because you have constantly not use frame (except 1st).

But, yeah, maybe I'll change opinions. I've even kind of like Mesa while doing short burst of 4ths. It's kind of Gauss.

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'll just mention that re-tapping Pillage brings it back early. But I rarely do  since negative duration makes this  unnecessary.

Retapping isn't great. When I've been playing some not high levels I've just using that ability from time to time. In simulacrum vs 155 Corrupted heavy gunners I've tried negative duration (17% afair) and it kind of worked but it stills slow & locks frame even with Cast speed sources.

What's your builds & usage?

 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Calibans abilities actually function well within the context of gameplay. Yareli’s does not.
Caliban still sucks tho.

Careful the 2 Caliban mains are gonna let you have it!

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, -Krism- said:

*Looks at the people who couldn't do basic thinking during TNW*

NW operator gameplay was probably the most engaging story i've played (i still missed using the full power of my Warframe tho)

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, -Krism- said:

*Looks at the people who couldn't do basic thinking during TNW*

 

 

The only way to fail at this casual game could happen when the player unplugs the controller, mouse keyboard, turns off the monitor screen or abandon the game when a mission starts. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

There's an implication in every post here that it's the user's personal experience and opinion.  That's what we have to go off of, except when DE gives us actual data like usage stats and such.

 

The survivability granted by her assimilate augment comes at too high a cost when compared to the alternatives.  And the rest of her kit certainly isn't doing her any favors.  When I labeled it "useless," I did so because it is outclassed by the competition in no small part due to its prohibitive costs.

 

Why would I take a Nyx build gimped by poor mobility when I could be functionally immortal with a different frame just by pressing a single button?  I bet you can guess which frame I'm talking about, but here are some hints to illustrate my point.  He already builds for strength, so it would be really easy to staple Tharros Strike onto his 4 and push Nyx even further into irrelevance.  He's also a "mind control" style frame.  And he recently got an augment that allows him to share his invincibility with his team, something Nyx can't do.  He's ubiquitous in areas where death actually matters because he is simply the best at avoiding it without any real costs.

 

When a frame has a clear and obvious replacement, one that does what it does but better, it's time for some changes.  It's the same reason why I think Hydroid needs a rework.

I don't see using forma and making builds as a cost personally. To me that's just playing the game. 

I get it, it's usually meta followers that see anything other than the past of least resistance as a cost. 

4 hours ago, Rathalio said:

That's such a snooty way to comment on that. Bruh.

She is definitely not in the state of Hydroid or Inaros, she carries a lot more arguments that's for sure. But even camping in a SP survival with Nyx feels wrong and it's supposed to be a strong argument for her but limiting your movement that much for such a low outcome doesn't feel enjoyable. First you need an augment to start even being able to use your 4th ability, then a lot of efficiency to make sure you can run it properly and then your chaos is basically just here to limit the hits you receive to avoid draining all your energy with your active absorb. And the fact you can't make any use of her damage boost when you exit your absorb is truly a bad design imo. Also just try using a nukor or a tenet cycron with radiation damage or any AoE status weapon with radiation, then you will create a better chaos just using your weapons. And then comes her mind control which is just bad by design because most enemies in this game grow way more tanky than the dps they offer (stats & accuracy combined) and so it's just there to take the aggro because it will almost always struggle to kill anything even with a decent AI or the augment to give it more damage or either taking control of a support ally like a shield drone or such is cute but it's pointless. Many specters outclass this ability and they are accessible for any warframe. Her psychic bolts is the only ability I have nothing to complain about truthfully. Although, yes better armor stripping abilities exist as well.

She is not "bad" as in "no playable in endgame content at all or having no use at all" but she is rather bad as in "carrying design issues and outclassed abilities and with overall a restrictive gameplay".

You don't need a damage boost if your weapons are already strong and you're also stripping armor....and you also don't need CC if you're killing fast enough, but I understand Nyx isn't for everyone. 

I think wukong feels wrong while others love him. Everyone handles differently.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

What's your builds & usage?

 

73, 45, 175, 298.  Primed Vigor, Adaptation, Blazing Pillage.  Most commonly I inject Elemental Ward (electric), although I switch back and forth between replacing her one and her 4.  Neither one is great, but they both have their moments.

Usage is about 3%, which is pretty high for me.  Top 8. Or if you mean what content I use her in, it's basically anywhere I want a tank and good defense strip, although if it's against infested I'll generally pull out Nezha instead.  Alternately I'll use her sometimes for  boom and zoom stuff up through sortie level.  While not the best at this, she's decent, and more fun to me than the other options.

She's also got a good niche in missions with energy or weapon restrictions.  Again, there are other alternatives, but mostly ones I don't enjoy.

[-Krism-]

8 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

 

The only way to fail at this casual game could happen when the player unplugs the controller, mouse keyboard, turns off the monitor screen or abandon the game when a mission starts. 

I was trying to make a joke...

[sunderthefirmament]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I don't see using forma and making builds as a cost personally. To me that's just playing the game. 

I get it, it's usually meta followers that see anything other than the past of least resistance as a cost. 

I agree on the forma part.  Sometimes I like to take underperforming frames and turn them into something beautiful with massive investment. Like Gyre. Absolute garbage until you heavily invest in her, including forma, reactor, exilus, arcanes, shards, and Helminth. Then she comes alive. Nyx never reaches that point.  I’ve got similar investment in her, yet no matter how much you sink into her she’ll be a middling CC frame in a game where CC is devalued. 
 

Also, don’t lump me in with the meta crowd. My most used frame is Ivara Prime. Yeah, I have abused AOE, but when you’ve hit a certain point in this game, optimization becomes more and more appealing.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I unironically really like Sentient Wrath... on any frame but Caliban. CC is CC, so while Lifted is generally atrocious it does disable enemies the same as any other. And it adds to that a damage buff that stacks with other damage buffs. It's got decent range and lasts just long enough to be useful without being totally annoying. I have Sentient Wrath on my Yareli and it's like it was made for her. I've even got it on my Protea now to give her some CC and do silly things with her turrets.

SW would be much better on Cali if Fusion Strike did what it's supposed to lifted targets.  Instead it (roll 1d6) 1-2: Barely Moves Them, 3-4: Does Nothing At All, 5-6: Flings Them Out of Range.

Of course it's also crazy to me that it has both a target limit and what's effectively a cooldown.

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I hope people continue to think it's terrible so it gets a good augment.

I mean, just the idea of Calban getting augments at this point is sort of funny.  But...

"Sentient Wreally Wreally Wrathful:  While channeling Razor Gyre Sentient Wrath's damage vulnerability is now 45% and can be cast an additional 25% faster."

[Felsagger]

13 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

I was trying to make a joke...

The problem is that you described ACTUAL HISTORY. That makes the joke even scarier. 

[-Krism-]

20 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

The problem is that you described ACTUAL HISTORY. That makes the joke even scarier. 

Yes, that was the joke, I was making fun of the people that can't play this game when they're told to use 2% of their brain cells

[Rathalio]

42 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You don't need a damage boost if your weapons are already strong and you're also stripping armor....and you also don't need CC if you're killing fast enough, but I understand Nyx isn't for everyone. 

I think wukong feels wrong while others love him. Everyone handles differently.

Well if the damage boost is part of the ability I still think that's stupid that it's unusable. And "you don't need CC if you are killing fast enough" this can apply to anything, good enough weapons makes DPS warframes, tank warframes and CC warframes useless by this argument alone. Then it's only about the style, on that part it's totally subjective and I understand. But I still want Nyx to be stronger and get some QoL before saying she is strong and feels nice to play with. I like to play Hydroid for the style but that doesn't make him any stronger even if I succeed in doing an endurance run in SP with it and almost only by relying on my weapons alone. I like Nyx style but when I play her in some endgame content it's kinda the same as when I'm playing Hydroid, I can't rely and her kit too much. Unlike the majority of other warframes that are way more efficient in their own contexts. That doesn't prevent me from enjoying them, but I won't lie to myself and say they are fine.

Also tbf I feel like wukong is loved for the wrong reasons. He's been loved for how he could automate the game and be tolerating a very poor gameplay and still work. Which is Inaros territory and a different subject. And tbh I used to play him quite a bit prior the rework but with how silly, cheesy and easy to play he's become I don't get any satisfaction from playing him anymore.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, -Krism- said:

Yes, that was the joke, I was making fun of the people that can't play this game when they're told to use 2% of their brain cells

Wait for it....

Wait for it....

Warframe is a game designed for casuals. We can't expect Elden Ring, God of War Ragnarok or Horizon Zero Dawn level of engagement. Warframe is a bug game where the player squashes bugs with a mallet. AI are dumber than a drunk flea. 

 

That's warframe in a nutshell. 

[-Krism-]

34 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Wait for it....

Wait for it....

Warframe is a game designed for casuals. We can't expect Elden Ring, God of War Ragnarok or Horizon Zero Dawn level of engagement. Warframe is a bug game where the player squashes bugs with a mallet. AI are dumber than a drunk flea. 

 

That's warframe in a nutshell. 

...

I'm done with this thread

[--Leyenda-yight6]

Hydroid is the worst state warframe in the game, 3 of his 4 abilities are static, 2 abilities you need to charge them to have maximum performance, his puddle is one of the worst abilities there is, it has up to 4 instances of energy cost (per activation , by channeling, by moving while being a puddle, and by using the tentacles to drag an enemy into the puddle) and his 2 alone is an expensive mobility ability (although its augment makes it much better).

[Tiltskillet]

It's funny the different standards people have for what determines "worst frame".  It seems like it might be even more varied than the standards we have for "best frame". 

[Felsagger]

40 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

...

I'm done with this thread

I'm glad you are done with this thread. 

[cute_moth.npc]

4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

 

 

The only way to fail at this casual game could happen when the player unplugs the controller, mouse keyboard, turns off the monitor screen or abandon the game when a mission starts. 

That's not true! I have failed because:

I joined a mission that was already failing

I literally loaded into a sortie spy on top of a laser barrier once (I'm sorry!!)

Yareli completely disappeared after using transference, that has been like twice. Actually I make it out of the mission each time but the game doesn't give you any rewards

My teammates killed the defense person in void defense using the laser, pew pew!!

The defense person fell through the map and died

Reactant didn't spawn fast enough because of a console host

This game has a lot of ways you can lose! 

Edited April 16, 2023 by cute_moth.npc

[Vryheid]

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Wait for it....

Wait for it....

Warframe is a game designed for casuals. We can't expect Elden Ring, God of War Ragnarok or Horizon Zero Dawn level of engagement. Warframe is a bug game where the player squashes bugs with a mallet. AI are dumber than a drunk flea. 

 

That's warframe in a nutshell. 

There isn't even the slightest shred of "challenge" or "skill" in beating any of the games you listed for anyone willing to put in the amount of time and effort that the average Warframe tryhard does for this MMO. You really think there aren't builds in Elden Ring that can one shot every single boss without any mechanics or effort required from the player? You really think there aren't people who can basically play through God of War on the hardest difficulty with their eyes closed because they've done it so much and are basically speedrunning the game in made-up challenge runs at this point? Put in 3000+ hours playing any of these games over and over again and researching videos and wiki articles on how to exploit every weird mechanical intricacy like people do with Warfame and you honestly should end up feeling the same way about how "difficult" any of these titles are. The only way you're really going to get difficult games after putting that much time and effort is to either make up your own challenges to keep things interesting or play a PvP game like Starcraft or Street Fighter where you're constantly put up against players of increasing skill level.

Anyways, to get back to the original topic of this thread, Yareli is in a relatively great state right now, Caliban is definitely not. His kit is clunky and unreliable and doesn't have any sort of clear gameplay loop that the best designed frames have that make the fun to use and give opportunities for player expression. You can absolutely make some aspects of his kit get some work done, the same way you can make some parts of Equinox's abilities effective, but I always feel like I'm crippling myself by picking him. I'd put him slightly above Hydroid though in terms of effectiveness.

[Felsagger]

59 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

That's not true! I have failed because:

I joined a mission that was already failing

I literally loaded into a sortie spy on top of a laser barrier once (I'm sorry!!)

Yareli completely disappeared after using transference, that has been like twice. Actually I make it out of the mission each time but the game doesn't give you any rewards

My teammates killed the defense person in void defense using the laser, pew pew!!

The defense person fell through the map and died

Reactant didn't spawn fast enough because of a console host

This game has a lot of ways you can lose! 

 

Oh, I know, we have those but those are game dysfunctions. They do not count as player failures. 

[Felsagger]

42 minutes ago, Vryheid said:

There isn't even the slightest shred of "challenge" or "skill" in beating any of the games you listed for anyone willing to put in the amount of time and effort that the average Warframe tryhard does for this MMO. You really think there aren't builds in Elden Ring that can one shot every single boss without any mechanics or effort required from the player? You really think there aren't people who can basically play through God of War on the hardest difficulty with their eyes closed because they've done it so much and are basically speedrunning the game in made-up challenge runs at this point? Put in 3000+ hours playing any of these games over and over again and researching videos and wiki articles on how to exploit every weird mechanical intricacy like people do with Warfame and you honestly should end up feeling the same way about how "difficult" any of these titles are. The only way you're really going to get difficult games after putting that much time and effort is to either make up your own challenges to keep things interesting or play a PvP game like Starcraft or Street Fighter where you're constantly put up against players of increasing skill level.

Difference. The AI in other games requires mechanical skill. With warframe you can clean tileset with nuke builds. That requires ZERO skill. 

Example of a boss that requires mechanical skill: Malenia Blade of Miquella. 

 

42 minutes ago, Vryheid said:

Anyways, to get back to the original topic of this thread, Yareli is in a relatively great state right now, Caliban is definitely not. His kit is clunky and unreliable and doesn't have any sort of clear gameplay loop that the best designed frames have that make the fun to use and give opportunities for player expression. You can absolutely make some aspects of his kit get some work done, the same way you can make some parts of Equinox's abilities effective, but I always feel like I'm crippling myself by picking him. I'd put him slightly above Hydroid though in terms of effectiveness.

Any frame in this game is viable if these are forma'ed properly. Caliban is very capable with right meta build. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Felsagger

[Vryheid]

 

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Difference. The AI in other games requires mechanical skill. With warframe you can clean tileset with nuke builds. That requires ZERO skill. 

Example of a boss that requires mechanical skill: Malenia Blade of Miquella. 

Optimal way to beat an Archon fight- spend a bunch of time making a min-maxed build, get the perfect weapon (most people recommend the Kuva Hek) to optimally exploit the boss's mechanical weakpoints, stack on a bunch of buffs and beat each phase of the fight in one well-placed attack each. Optimal way to beat Malenia- make an overly min-maxed build, get a weapon that perfectly exploits the boss's mechanical weakpoints, stack on a bunch of buffs, beat both phases of the boss in one attack each. How does that "require mechanical skill" exactly? Elden Ring is a lot more obtuse about its inner mechanics and damage calculation math than Warframe is, to be sure, but if you're at any point really struggling against bosses in either game that really comes down to a lack of player knowledge or unoptimized preparation than anything else. 

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Any frame in this game is viable if these are forma'ed properly. Caliban is very capable with right meta build. 

Yeah, you can stick shield gating mods on literally any warframe and get a decent melee weapon and you can slowly grind your way to level cap in an endless survival mission if you really want to. He definitely is "capable" in the same way Equinox or Hydroid is. That's just baseline Warframe functionality though, and I don't really care about that in terms of judging whether or not a frame deserves a rework What I want is for Caliban to 1. have a kit that feels fluid and engaging to use, 2. not feel like I'm nerfing myself into the ground by picking him over 80% of the other frames in the games with better tools, and 3. have abilities or a passive that rewards spending a lot of time practicing using him and mastering his kit. That last one is more of a personal preference than overall measure of effectiveness because there are definitely powerful warframes with extremely simple playstyles that you can become very good at almost instantly, but I personally enjoy frames more when it always feels like you're getting better at them or discovering new tricks to exploiting their capabilities the more you use them.

Part of why Yareli is so popular with the people who love using her is because mastering Merulina's movement tech actually requires a lot of that "mechanical skill" that you value so much. 99.99% of Warframe players are pretty awful at zooming around cramped levels on a K-drive, with enough time and practice you can actually get pretty dang good at it. Maybe there's some secret hidden Caliban tech that makes him awesome that requires tons of practice to be good at that I'm unaware of? I dunno, but what I have seen is that a lot of the players who spend the most time with Caliban all seem pretty universal in the general opinion that yeah, the frame really does need some buffs.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Vryheid

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , Vryheid 说:

Part of why Yareli is so popular with the people who love using her is because mastering Merulina's movement tech actually requires a lot of that "mechanical skill" that you value so much. 99.99% of Warframe players are pretty awful at zooming around cramped levels on a K-drive, with enough time and practice you can actually get pretty dang good at it. 

Going full speed on merulina without hitting anything in kuva fortress is a skill I've always wanted to learn, tbh.

btw, DE, merulina modding when?

Edited April 17, 2023 by RichardKam