Console players shouldn't be able to be hosts

[Venus-Venera]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Malikili:

Do you really think I want to be on switch?

Dude if I’m stuck with switch then you’re stuck with me 😈

sounds like a marriage proposal

[Hexerin]

19 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

It would solve many issues, but it also has its own implementation problems. I discussed them here a bit so I don't have to retype: 

The TL;DR being at scale it would require more additional cost, increased latency in some situations, and even downtime for maintenance that the current system does not deal with (granted it would not be much but still). The P2P one we have is not perfect, but I don't see a developer wanting to rework their entire network infrastructure and coding to see slightly marginal improvements in some areas, of which maybe the most noticeable would be no host migrations. I'd prefer they just optimize their existing structure to be more performant than take months to just rewrite the whole thing from scratch again, or use some combination approach in less optimal situations.

DE hosting dedicated servers that everyone connects to (like modern games) is obviously one path, and has logistical concerns to consider of course.

However, that's not the only path for dedicated servers.

You could instead do what many P2P games have done over the years, and allow the end user to setup their own dedicated servers. The end user then connects to the dedicated server, which handles their connections to/with everyone else. This has many benefits for those with weaker/unstable/bad internet connections, as other players connect to the much more stable dedicated server rather than to the player themselves.

Such a thing would see the creation of a dedicated server market, much like all those other games have seen. DE could rent servers out to players, the usual dedicated server companies could add Warframe to their offerings, and players could just straight up rent server racks from datacenters.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

21 hours ago, Mag_Gaming said:

 

 

And this player u mentioned who isn´t able to get a new console while this game has been out for 10 years now really shouldn´t be catered to so that we all suffer. It´s not and shouldn´t be DE´s problem that YOU (that player) cannot afford a better machine even after such a long time.

The new consoles have only TRULY been available since 2021/2022 since they were almost always sold out during 2020/early 2021 or sold for excessive prices (and this is talking about America, let alone countries with a more limited supply or expensive shipping costs). 

Using your logic, everyone should have already replaced their quest 2 with the brand new quest 3 because "people should be able to afford new consoles easily and if not, well you're doing something wrong." 

Also maybe some of these people are trying to get PCs so they don't get insulted by you oh-so-supreme PC players, because if you don't remember, cross save isn't out yet, so why would I drop another $300-500 on a single game, when I can just wait with my current console until I can play on my mid/high end PC.

Edited November 18, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[Mag_Gaming]

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

 

@Mag_Gaming Am I seriously trying to educate you? I, honestly, don't care either way. If that is not a solution that is suitable for you, then don't use it. If it is, then use it. 

What " solution " are you even talking about lol... but nonetheless irrelevant as I´ve found ways and methods for a while now since I very rarely play solo and mostly pub everything except specific things like endurance runs for example that I use recruit chat for.

22 hours ago, Mag_Gaming said:

The most obvious and simple bandaid to the whole issue would be to prevent old gen console players from hosting pubs EVER. They can still join dugh.

And this ☝️ " solution " would actually work unlike your... whatever you´re even talking about... " player to player communication " when entering a random pub where the system automatically has a host chosen already with no way to change it unless the host itself leaves or you instead 😂

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

PS4 Player Here

Ping, spawn rates aside.

 

a Huge Problem, is PS4 and Switch are Unstable as of the Dagath Update. (and DE has Not listed it under "known issues"....)

Yes, ever since the Dagath Update, whenever there are Too Many Effects on screen at the same time, my PS4 Freezes up.

If I happen to be Host during that Freeze, it'll drop the connection to the entire squad.

 

This was not a problem prior to Dagath, so I have to guess it is related to the new "Enhanced Graphics Engine" that got pushed with it....

 

Unless that gets addressed, I simply cannot be a Reliable Host on PS4.

 

"Enhanced Graphics Engine" ??? I thought 'enhanced' means Better, not Worse performance!

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by (PSN)haphazardlynamed

[L3512]

16 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

warframe was never optimized on ps4 and grouping all of the consoles as the same is pure ignorance

Hardly ignorance. Due to how cross play works all a PC player will see is a little circle icon thing, we have no way of distinguishing between the latest consoles and something like a Switch. When WF Mobile comes out it will be the same.

People can bring up the issue of bad connections and old PCs however match making as a whole was better before cross play.

[Waeleto]

Agreed 100%, PLEASE don't let console players host missions or at least allow us to turn off crossplay without being placed in a separate server alone 

[PollexMessier]

On 2023-11-16 at 4:20 PM, Mag_Gaming said:

My issue with console hosts is enemy spawns.

From my understanding, console players with old gen are still supported for some reason (I´m hoping that the upcoming update of whisphers in the walls being made entirely in the ENHANCED graphics engine will finally end it as their hardware will literally not be able to play it) and the negative side effect if they are the host is that enemy spawns are SEVERELY reduced and this is still the case.

Some people just can't buy a new system. It's pretty god damn rude to just essentially kick people out of the game for not having a stable income. Other games don't do that, Niether should live service.

That said. My PC was a 500$ budget pc 8 years ago (With a later upgrade of.... a 50$ gpu) and it runs the game on medium settings just fine. It definitely can't play most ps4 titles on medium, and struggles with some on absolute minimum settings. So I don't understand how it's even possible for the game to be running so poorly on consoles that performance is actually the reason enemy spawns are nerfed. Unless the devs are so stubborn on visuals that they absolutely refuse to lower them on console for the sake of performance.
Which... if that's the case they really need to pull their heads out of their [against froum ToS for some god damn reason]s and just lower the graphics on struggling systems. Cus at the settings I'm running it at this game looks better than some recent tripple A titles.

Just booting people for not being able to upgrade is never the only option.

If that's even a real problem to begin with. It sounds like some BS some console hater made up as an excuse to complain about cross play and it just caught on. Unless DE has actually stated this as a fact at some point. Enemy spawns have always been inconsistent. It could EASILY be pure confirmation bias.

[o0Despair0o]

4 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

It definitely can't play most ps4 titles on medium, and struggles with some on absolute minimum settings. So I don't understand how it's even possible for the game to be running so poorly on consoles that performance is actually the reason enemy spawns are nerfed

Because your PC is the exception, not the rule.

Most PC folks have at least a mid-end system that can run the game just as well as consoles, if not better.

 

There's also the software side of things. Even if the performance of the hardware between a PC and a console is identical, the software plays a big role.

[Mag_Gaming]

5 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Some people just can't buy a new system. It's pretty god damn rude to just essentially kick people out of the game for not having a stable income. Other games don't do that, Niether should live service.

That said. My PC was a 500$ budget pc 8 years ago (With a later upgrade of.... a 50$ gpu) and it runs the game on medium settings just fine. It definitely can't play most ps4 titles on medium, and struggles with some on absolute minimum settings. So I don't understand how it's even possible for the game to be running so poorly on consoles that performance is actually the reason enemy spawns are nerfed. Unless the devs are so stubborn on visuals that they absolutely refuse to lower them on console for the sake of performance.
Which... if that's the case they really need to pull their heads out of their [against froum ToS for some god damn reason]s and just lower the graphics on struggling systems. Cus at the settings I'm running it at this game looks better than some recent tripple A titles.

Just booting people for not being able to upgrade is never the only option.

If that's even a real problem to begin with. It sounds like some BS some console hater made up as an excuse to complain about cross play and it just caught on. Unless DE has actually stated this as a fact at some point. Enemy spawns have always been inconsistent. It could EASILY be pure confirmation bias.

And I understand not being able to afford a new machine especially if you´re a PC player. Hell I changed 4 machines in my 6 and a half or whatever years in Warframe. And never did I say to kick them out of the game for it. My bandaid " solution " was pretty clear. 👇

On 2023-11-17 at 3:12 AM, Mag_Gaming said:

The most obvious and simple bandaid to the whole issue would be to prevent old gen console players from hosting pubs EVER. They can still join dugh.

 

As for the spawns I personally noticed that it is a real problem and not just people gaslighting to cause drama.

[Kaiga]

On 2023-11-16 at 2:40 PM, Howdoipickaname said:

I have been informed I can just turn off cross play from a clan mate so my problems solved. Seen some good points and some people projecting on this but thank you all for your time and possible solutions to this issue. Happy holidays.

 

On 2023-11-16 at 3:07 PM, (XBOX)Shodian said:

You can turn off crossplay or make a premade group.

Lol 

Try actually doing this and see if you find a game.

It's on by default, and the playerbase is oblivious to turning it off, so you never, ever find a game.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

44 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

It's on by default, and the playerbase is oblivious to turning it off, so you never, ever find a game.

I mean I don't have issues so I have no need to turn it off. 🤷 

[sunderthefirmament]

12 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Agreed 100%, PLEASE don't let console players host missions or at least allow us to turn off crossplay without being placed in a separate server alone 

While I'm not sure that outright forbidding consoles from hosting is a good idea, I do think we need more nuanced matchmaking options.  Some options for DE to consider:

• prefer PC host
• still match with PC players who have crossplay enabled even if I disable it, but prevent me from joining any sessions with a console host
• force host.

I understand that consoles are a (slightly or significantly) more affordable avenue for many people to access video games, and that Warframe is a F2P game.  But I'm not going to pretend that crossplay has improved my experience.  In fact, it has done the opposite.  Here's hoping DE keeps iterating on it, so it isn't as much of a net loss for the average PC player.

[Vaml77]

Now I understand why loading takes much longer and in survival missions on the circuit the enemies only follow the host... When this feature arrived on Warframe at first I thought it was a good idea... but after a while I noticed- if it wasn't something good. Everything on the console is slower....which brings the PC to the same level. The problem with turning off cross save is that 99% of players will not enter our section.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

19 hours ago, L3512 said:

Hardly ignorance. Due to how cross play works all a PC player will see is a little circle icon thing, we have no way of distinguishing between the latest consoles and something like a Switch. When WF Mobile comes out it will be the same.

People can bring up the issue of bad connections and old PCs however match making as a whole was better before cross play.

switch as bad as the network is on it is 100% nintendo's servers, warframe uses its own servers and peer to peer, its not as ad as ps4, ps4's wifi chip on the original modde is garbage and u can use Ethernet on the switch and get almost the same frame rate and load times as ps4 depending on the missions (witch is proof that warframe isnt optimized at all on console like it is on pc)

lets not get started about the original hard drive on the ps4 that takes soo long to load that if ur host is on ps5/sx or pc u just ought right crash in open worlds or diviri back to the orbiter witch is de's fault for not making every fully load first and happens mostly when u have a full squad

 

19 minutes ago, Vaml77 said:

Now I understand why loading takes much longer and in survival missions on the circuit the enemies only follow the host... When this feature arrived on Warframe at first I thought it was a good idea... but after a while I noticed- if it wasn't something good. Everything on the console is slower....which brings the PC to the same level. The problem with turning off cross save is that 99% of players will not enter our section.

on ps5 and xbox sx the spawn limmits r the same as on pc

Edited November 18, 2023 by (PSN)Spider_Enigma

[PollexMessier]

5 hours ago, Mag_Gaming said:

never did I say to kick them out of the game for it.

On 2023-11-16 at 4:20 PM, Mag_Gaming said:

(I´m hoping that the upcoming update of whisphers in the walls being made entirely in the ENHANCED graphics engine will finally end it as their hardware will literally not be able to play it)

Except you literally did?

6 hours ago, Mag_Gaming said:

My bandaid " solution " was pretty clear. 👇

On 2023-11-16 at 6:12 PM, Mag_Gaming said:

The most obvious and simple bandaid to the whole issue would be to prevent old gen console players from hosting pubs EVER. They can still join dugh.

as for this.... this is complicated. It works. and it's not exactly a bad decision. But I'm more on board with what someone else suggested (and has been a suggestion floating around the forums for years before crossplay). Which is: Let people choose if they want to host or not.

Other Peer 2 Peer games do this and have no issues. Excellent example being Deep rock. I know my system and internet are terrible and as a result I pretty exclusively aim for being a client whenever possible. Giving people the ability to self-regulate is less aggressive and gets most of the way towards solving the issue.

[PollexMessier]

40 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

still match with PC players who have crossplay enabled even if I disable it, but prevent me from joining any sessions with a console host

This. This is a good idea.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

3 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

Except you literally did?

as for this.... this is complicated. It works. and it's not exactly a bad decision. But I'm more on board with what someone else suggested (and has been a suggestion floating around the forums for years before crossplay). Which is: Let people choose if they want to host or not.

Other Peer 2 Peer games do this and have no issues. Excellent example being Deep rock. I know my system and internet are terrible and as a result I pretty exclusively aim for being a client whenever possible. Giving people the ability to self-regulate is less aggressive and gets most of the way towards solving the issue.

i know this isnt directed at you but then wouldnt we also have to make pc players with S#&$boxes never be host?

and not all consles are equal, the steam deck, rog ally, ps5 and sx an easily host the game

ps5 and sx wired, and the new steam deck and ally using new wireless tech

Edited November 18, 2023 by (PSN)Spider_Enigma

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

7 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

This. This is a good idea.

not all pc's r equal

some people r on wifi in a house where multiple people r on thier phones / streaming tvs and r using the bare minimum on a laptop

infact de was showing off how easy it was to run warframe a year or 2 ago on a S#&$ty laptop so people will try to play it with the lowest end and still do, alot of people on the forums where mad when the new graphics engine was added

(and yet consoles arn optimized at all except for the switch)

again this isnt a console issue its a DE making the game run worse on consoles over the years when it wasn't an issue to start with

my friend used to be able to play with me as host with a really bad connection, and now he crashes in every game now do to code changes

Edited November 18, 2023 by (PSN)Spider_Enigma

[sunderthefirmament]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

not all pc's r equal

some people r on wifi in a house where multiple people r on thier phones / streaming tvs and r using the bare minimum on a laptop

infact de was showing off how easy it was to run warframe a year or 2 ago on a S#&$ty laptop so people will try to play it with the lowest end and still do, alot of people on the forums where mad when the new graphics engine was added

(and yet consoles arn optimized at all except for the switch)

again this isnt a console issue its a DE making the game run worse on consoles over the years when it wasn't an issue to start with

my friend used to be able to play with me as host with a really bad connection, and now he crashes in every game now do to code changes

 

2 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

on ps5 and xbox sx the spawn limmits r the same as on pc

DE is never going to come out and tell us that spawn rates are lower on certain machines, so all we have is anecdotal evidence.  And my anecdotal evidence doesn't match up with the claims above.  Every time I notice ghost-town level spawns, I've got a swirly logo for a host.  One time it was so bad I flat out asked, and the host told me they were on the high end xbox, for whatever that's worth.

 

The game is less engaging, less challenging, and less rewarding with a console host.

 

Again, I don't think preventing console players from hosting is a realistic or good option.  Instead, DE needs to iterate upon crossplay further so that I can prefer or force PC hosting for myself.  As it stands, my only real recourse is to play alone, because disabling crossplay effectively nullifies public matchmaking.

[Raarsi]

Only solution I can think of would to make server hosting an opt-in thing that automatically disables when your ping exceeds a specific threshold, and the game will only put you in a group if it can find at least one other player who has opted into server hosting.

A bit excessive for sure, but for now, I think it's just adapting to situations and expecting the worst of humanity while hoping for the best (like I usually do).

[Mag_Gaming]

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Except you literally did?

Hm true looking at it technically I did but I´m gonna say I misspoke as English isn´t my main language. I stand by what I said about my bandaid " solution " though.

 

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

as for this.... this is complicated. It works. and it's not exactly a bad decision. But I'm more on board with what someone else suggested (and has been a suggestion floating around the forums for years before crossplay). Which is: Let people choose if they want to host or not.

While that could work it´s still a pretty meh solution as it depends on people´s choice and some people don´t even know they are bad hosts. What guarantee is there that old console player x will say he doesn´t want to host? The system itself could tell him that in like a prompt or like a little network test before he ticks the " be host " option but still not a guarantee.

[kamisama85]

On 2023-11-16 at 5:58 PM, Howdoipickaname said:

Nah it definitely does. Especially in stuff like bounties and relics among the top most they will leave first. On the part of bad ping many of them just use wifi which exacerbates the issues with them being host even more.

Bad hosting is not exclusive to only internet connection.
People with absolutely horrendous PC specs or chalk full of spyware or other issues can do worse.

[MagPrime]

On 2023-11-16 at 6:06 PM, Howdoipickaname said:

I am sick of these guys coming into long form missions and being host with AWFUL ping and then leaving after one run or one part of a bounty and leaving thus making me sit in the loading screen and more than likely bugging the run so I have to leave my mission and LOSE rewards or even have to alt f4 and restart the game. This is just a terrible issue that I'm sick of dealing with. Thoughts or counter points?

My only suggestion would be to make your own team to avoid this.  Unless DE changes from peer to peer matchmaking to dedicated servers, there isn't a way to "fix" this.  

[sunderthefirmament]

6 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Unless DE changes from peer to peer matchmaking to dedicated servers, there isn't a way to "fix" this. 

I don't think it has to be anything that drastic.  During Scarlet Spear, and in the old days of Railjack, it was possible to force host.  It is my belief that DE should look into adapting this system for further iterations upon crossplay.  I don't mind having a console player in the squad.  I just don't want them to be the host.