Nullifiers are outdated, and you know it

[(XBOX)Rez090]

37 minutes ago, Famecans said:

Nullifiers = Visual Polution; Waste of energy; Obstruct of actions; Mess of logical gameplay.

😂, what is this "mess of logical gameplay"? It's not "logical" that a faction might develop a defense or two against void energies and other types of damage?

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

If i recall well, there was a time where one of the Infested Ancients had a Dispel ability that would remove all active buffs/abilities from players without the need of a bubble.

I remember doing Infested missions and instants after casting Turbulence on my Zephyr the ability just vanishing, shes built for Duration so her Turbulence lasts 46 sec.

Huh. That would mean DE already de-fanged the Ancient who could do that.

I honestly don’t know where the stopping point is for a lot of these discussions surrounding these enemies; it seems like it’s rarely if ever “Re-work the enemy and make them even scarier in different ways” and more “Take away their teeth and claws and options for dealing with the player, if not downright removing them entirely with no replacement”. The sentiment often seems to be “Just let me stand around grinding and not having to move”, which begs the question as to what the ideal gameplay would look like, and is it really super boring (which I expect it would be)

Edited November 22, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones
weird double post in one

[Star700]

I'm rather fond of either removing them or just knocking the spawn rate way down, I can't count how many times I'm running to extraction with aquablades running and get snuck up on from the side doors and get shut off. It's not too much of an issue to just turn it back on and keep going but it's really annoying when it happens several times in a row.

[Voltage]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:45 AM, Chewarette said:

If a unit is annoying (and not challenging) by design, then it's a garbage design that should be overhauled. There are other ways to disrupt the routine, Nullifiers were their first tentative, and it's not successful, as they've proven in the recent years by designing other types of units that are also disrupting, but in a way that's not garbage to deal with.

Like Thrax? I rather have Nullifiers spawning in large quantities on my Circuit runs. DE's run out of ideas with ways to combat the player arsenal besides just locking it off in the form of mission modifiers like Orphix with Necramech, The Circuit with random gear, and things like The Cambion Drift where Viral will not work. Thrax is the cheapest design I've seen for a gameplay disrupting type of enemy.

Nullifiers are extremely dated, but with some tweaks as mentioned in this thread earlier, they would be absolutely fine. Enemies like Thrax are the ones with problematic design imo, and that's excluding the bugs associated with them.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Voltage

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2023-11-21 at 3:56 AM, Chewarette said:

Now, why do I say "you (DE) know it" ? Circuit has no Nullifiers. None. Nada. Absolutely 0. You have purposely designed the latest game mode around it not having Nullifiers, because you know they suck

The newer survival nodes on Lua that launched with Voruna are also mercifully clear of nullies, which is further evidence that DE doesn’t need them to make combat in relatively recent content engaging.

 

I think I would have less of a problem with nullifiers if the spawn system in this game didn’t basically always mean you’re flanked at all times.  Also, they’d be less frustrating if the other issues you bring up (right behind a doorway we’re bullet jumping through, visibility issues with lag for clients) were addressed somehow. One other niche complaint I have is how they interact with stacking buffs, or buffs with a cooldown (mainly just Gyre). One reason I don’t play Gara is that I don’t want to experience losing my painstakingly stacked buffs just because my toe touched a nully bubble. 
 

If nullies were suddenly removed, Corpus would feel a little flat. But they have all sorts of other BS to fall back on. Obnoxious sapping ospreys, enemies that can knock you back and into a hard landing even through PSF, unending Ratels… the list goes on. 

[Chewarette]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Like Thrax? I rather have Nullifiers spawning in large quantities on my Circuit runs. DE's run out of ideas with ways to combat the player arsenal besides just locking it off in the form of mission modifiers like Orphix with Necramech, The Circuit with random gear, and things like The Cambion Drift where Viral will not work. Thrax is the cheapest design I've seen for a gameplay disrupting type of enemy.

Nullifiers are extremely dated, but with some tweaks as mentioned in this thread earlier, they would be absolutely fine. Enemies like Thrax are the ones with problematic design imo, and that's excluding the bugs associated with them.

Well, Circuit's Thraxes would be OK if they were not bugged for the clients. They're basically bigger units with a small gimmick (the 3 ghosts you should be able to despawn with the Operator), but as this gimmick is bugged af (can only despawn the ghosts as Host, and sometimes they stay forever), of course they're annoying.

But on my side (that's a totally subjective point of view), I'd rather have Thrax over Nullifiers if neither of them were as bugged as they are today.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 3 heures, Voltage a dit :

Enemies like Thrax are the ones with problematic design imo, and that's excluding the bugs associated with them.

You mean when they die while in a state that otherwise renders them immune to incoming damage and they stay as a dead ghost firing a beam endlessly until the end of the objective? Has to be the most common one.

I think we can all agree about Thrax units being overtuned. The Circuit spawn rules can let anything spawn within 15 meters of anyone (more or less 5), which is fine and dandy until you remember that this guy :

1. phases out into a ghost form in under a second after spawning
2. deals the highest damage in the game with that laser while in ghost form
3. comes with a hefty amount of overguard
4. can jump with its scythe (though it's closer to a teleport from Ash)
5. deals absurd amount of damage with said scythe
6. scales even worse than any other unit in the game

 

Nullies in comparison are a joke, naturally, but they are still fairly outdated. The thing is, Disruption demolysts also have nullifying auras, but you don't see players talk about it, outside of Limbo players (though that comes from the fact that Limbo himself is even more outdated, and it's a whole other debate that I won't expand here), because for the most part, players know that Demolysts are kind of balanced right and the aura pulse is on a fixed timer that you can easily play around. In the case of nullies, they don't become too problematic when there's just like one of them just standing there, they become an issue as a group and they have different aggro targets, in which case, good luck shooting that little drone. Maybe half a meter higher on the drone hitbox would do the trick?

[Mag_Gaming]

Nah.

If anything the corpus (and especially infested) need a lot more beefier and unique units. Like implementing the fortuna and deimos corpus and infested into normal missions or something (theres a lil content island bandaid solution right there for you DE).

Not to mention grineer aren´t a threat either anymore cus of just how potent armor strip is but even without it our arsenal is beyond them. You don´t need armor strip/roar/eclipse/xata blabla whatever youtuber #1243 says you do because even with a " normal " weapon and well built frame everything falls over.

The only threat would be the thrax but that´s mostly due to them still being a bit buggy.

[(PSN)Unstar]

Personally, I like Nullifiers.  I feel like they present a clear and visible threat that can be addressed via a variety of different mechanics.

I've never found myself in a Nullifier Bubble unexpectedly.  If there are bugs that are making that happen for some people, sure, addressing that would be good.  But I would prefer that Nullifiers stay in the game.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I left for a year.  I played a lot of other games.  Coming back for a stint gave me a fresh perspective on several things.  Grind that once would have looked acceptable looks even worse.  Weapon stats that looked like trash, and I know are trash would be god tier in so many other games, if it weren't for all the stronger options in the game.  

And while I had gotten used to how much nullifiers suck, I had lost my automated response to pop into operator and blast the shield down with amp since that always seemed to work fastest.  I popped right into a bubble that was around a corner, that I had no way of seeing while in Xaku, almost immediately after having just gotten max Grasp guns up.  I instantly lost every single thing I just built up, because I turned a corner in a game where you go fast, and there was a hallway-filling "Screw you bubble" right there.

It was just like the first time I saw one.  Immediate outrage.  SERIOUSLY?  Every single buff on my frame just vanishes instantly?  I have hated them forever, and I only hate them more now.  This is the laziest design I can think of for an enemy.  Especially one that the game spams at you.  I can't imagine them fitting into any other game I play, and they don't even fit in this one.

I do take major issue with you saying circuit is enjoyed by everyone though.  It most certainly is not.

Edited November 23, 2023 by (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan

[Hexerin]

There's people who have trouble with Thrax? Thrax? Seriously? They're squishy as hell and don't actually do anything. Hell, past a few stages in a run of Circuit they're getting consistently 1-shot (often in groups, as since they're melee they tend to bunch up). The ones on Lua and Zariman are even more of a joke, because you'll actually have a cohesive loadout to delete them (and everything else) with.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

There's people who have trouble with Thrax? Thrax? Seriously? They're squishy as hell and don't actually do anything. Hell, past a few stages in a run of Circuit they're getting consistently 1-shot (often in groups, as since they're melee they tend to bunch up). The ones on Lua and Zariman are even more of a joke, because you'll actually have a cohesive loadout to delete them (and everything else) with.

Thrax are BS too, just of a different, buggier and more boring flavor. The only reliable counter play to the ranged Circuit thrax ghost laser spam is to jump directly up into the air and aim glide until they’re done. It’s not worth it to try and amp away their ghosts when you’re very likely to bug them out or get magnetized in the process.

 

And they’re just so common in the circuit. When one finishes the big ghost laser attack, another one will start, and then another. You can’t really do anything except jump up, because their aim will seek you out anywhere else, or you’ll get hit while it seeks out an ally.

[Hexerin]

7 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Thrax are BS too, just of a different, buggier and more boring flavor. The only reliable counter play to the ranged Circuit thrax ghost laser spam is to jump directly up into the air and aim glide until they’re done. It’s not worth it to try and amp away their ghosts when you’re very likely to bug them out or get magnetized in the process.

 

And they’re just so common in the circuit. When one finishes the big ghost laser attack, another one will start, and then another. You can’t really do anything except jump up, because their aim will seek you out anywhere else, or you’ll get hit while it seeks out an ally.

Or just 1-tap them as they approach. And if one does manage to get in close enough to trigger ghost laser mode, just walk a couple meters to the side. They're just fancier Eximus, but have the same (maybe even slightly lower) threat level.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Hexerin

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 2 heures, Hexerin a dit :

There's people who have trouble with Thrax? Thrax? Seriously? They're squishy as hell and don't actually do anything. Hell, past a few stages in a run of Circuit they're getting consistently 1-shot (often in groups, as since they're melee they tend to bunch up). The ones on Lua and Zariman are even more of a joke, because you'll actually have a cohesive loadout to delete them (and everything else) with.

il y a 9 minutes, Hexerin a dit :

Or just 1-tap them as they approach.

Pffft, yeah right. If you're the kind of player who thinks outside of steel path I guess, lol.

 

Il y a 3 heures, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

I do take major issue with you saying circuit is enjoyed by everyone though.  It most certainly is not.

Yeah, who'd have guessed keeping people stuck in a 50 min long mission twice a week to have the actual reward they were looking for wasn't such a good idea?

Even if there are no nullies in there, there are just other flaws bothering players regarding the gamemode. Randomness, mission types, mission lengths, and even just bugs, all of that are common complaints about it. No wonder it's hung up there next to Railjack in the nav.

 

Il y a 3 heures, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

And while I had gotten used to how much nullifiers suck, I had lost my automated response to pop into operator and blast the shield down with amp since that always seemed to work fastest.  I popped right into a bubble that was around a corner, that I had no way of seeing while in Xaku, almost immediately after having just gotten max Grasp guns up.  I instantly lost every single thing I just built up, because I turned a corner in a game where you go fast, and there was a hallway-filling "Screw you bubble" right there.

Imagine what it feels like when 50% of your screen is blurred when playing Gauss. Oop, there goes Redline, Oop, there goes Kinetic Plating. Guess that's my bad for not using Wukong or Inaros.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Or just 1-tap them as they approach. And if one does manage to get in close enough to trigger ghost laser mode, just walk a couple meters to the side. They're just fancier Eximus, but have the same (maybe even slightly lower) threat level.

They don’t fall quite that fast on steel path circuit. And moving to the side isn’t a guaranteed dodge the way that leaping straight up is. 
 

At least in my experience. 

[Hexerin]

42 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

They don’t fall quite that fast on steel path circuit.

I suppose if your weapon is modded poorly. Or maybe you lack the relevant intrinsics that boost your power as you gain decrees?

42 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

And moving to the side isn’t a guaranteed dodge the way that leaping straight up is.

Their beams have a pattern that is entirely predictable and easily dodged by simply strafing. I recommend running Zariman mobile defense missions solo, on a frame that can lock down all the fodder (Limbo, Vauban, etc), and using the several guaranteed Thrax spawns at each of the three objectives to observe and practice. My first experiences with Thrax were on the Zariman, and it's where I learned how to deal with them effectively.

[sunderthefirmament]

23 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

I suppose if your weapon is modded poorly. Or maybe you lack the relevant intrinsics that boost your power as you gain decrees?

Their beams have a pattern that is entirely predictable and easily dodged by simply strafing. I recommend running Zariman mobile defense missions solo, on a frame that can lock down all the fodder (Limbo, Vauban, etc), and using the several guaranteed Thrax spawns at each of the three objectives to observe and practice. My first experiences with Thrax were on the Zariman, and it's where I learned how to deal with them effectively.

Well, it’s the circuit, so I’m not always rocking my best gear. But they’ve got overguard, shields, and armor.  So they don’t just melt instantly. 
 

I’ve long since maxed out all my decrees. The circuit gave me a reason to invest in MR fodder beyond just a quick rank up to 30.
 

I’ll try strafe dodging next time I find myself in the undercroft though. I typically play on open matchmaking in the circuit, and I find that dodging the beams is honestly harder when the thrax are aiming at someone else. They can just randomly swipe you accidentally as they aim for your teammates. 

[Hexerin]

16 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Well, it’s the circuit, so I’m not always rocking my best gear. But they’ve got overguard, shields, and armor.  So they don’t just melt instantly.

Hasn't been my experience, so dunno what to tell you.

16 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I typically play on open matchmaking in the circuit, and I find that dodging the beams is honestly harder when the thrax are aiming at someone else. They can just randomly swipe you accidentally as they aim for your teammates. 

I mean yea, in that case you're being blindsided. There's nothing you can do about that.

[makaloff95]

On 2023-11-21 at 10:56 AM, Chewarette said:

I think it's about time the Nullifiers are removed. The Eximus are having the same mechanisms as them, and they're a lot better/more fun to engage. Nullies are obsolete!

I dont think we need to remove them, however, they need to be reworked. Stripping all buffs and casting you out on whatever channel ability you have is quite frustrating atleast. Frames like valkyr is heavily suffering thanks to them (and no, im not gonna bring a miter just beacuse of 1 single unit in the game) and they genuinly add nothing to the table aside frustration. Ive been running Apollo on Lua and the amount of nullify spam is absurd (scramblers, nullifiers and the demolysts pulsating nullify aura).

My suggestion would be to just make them not allow you to cast while inside the bubble, thats how they should have been to begin with instead of today where they just strip you of everything.

[Gamer_Auto]

I've never heard of this apparent issue there is with lag spikes and Nullifiers. Even when I play publicly, I don't encounter anything like that. It's possible that's OP's personal issue due to location and/or ISP service, and not necessarily the game. No matter how hard you try, you'll never be able to 100% lag-proof a game unless its an offline experience.

In terms of game design? I've no problem with them. Can they be annoying? Yeah, but it's far easier to just suck it up, melee them down, and reapply buffs than it is to complain about it and wish for them to be removed/changed. We all know DE never reads the forums.

[Chewarette]

4 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

I've never heard of this apparent issue there is with lag spikes and Nullifiers. Even when I play publicly, I don't encounter anything like that. It's possible that's OP's personal issue due to location and/or ISP service, and not necessarily the game. 

You never ever had a host with more than 200ms of latency ? Even by lowering down the threshold in the options, it will happen.

[Famecans]

On 2023-11-22 at 5:11 PM, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

😂, what is this "mess of logical gameplay"? It's not "logical" that a faction might develop a defense or two against void energies and other types of damage?

I want to hit the nullifier node but it's not always in front of the bubble so the logic of hitting the nullifier bubble node doesn't work logically.

 

Edited January 24 by Famecans

[Gamer_Auto]

11 hours ago, Chewarette said:

You never ever had a host with more than 200ms of latency ? Even by lowering down the threshold in the options, it will happen.

No, I have not. Not to the extent that Nullifiers wig out and leave their bubble's null effect after they die. It's possible it might be your connection to the host. But neither of us would know without rigorous testing of your machine, and both intense scrutiny of Internet Access in your local area and the service provided to you by your ISP.

And even if we could rule out your Internet Connection being the issue, there's still the chance that DE will say it's not their fault and Nullis work as intended (on their fancy dev machines directly connected to their private dev servers playing with other devs).

This is something that, unless it's related to Whispers or the next update, DE's not gonna look into without near everyone in the community saying that they experience the same issue.

[Novashank]

On 2023-11-21 at 7:21 AM, IamBESh said:

Keep nullifier field. Change it so that field only works to protect the nullifier's allies from abilties, not weapon. And put away bullet protection. 

This right here. It's not fair for them to block Warframe abilities AND projectiles!

[One_Melee]

Yeah nah, Nullifiers ain't it, they're not even hard they're just Detrimentally inconvenient in verry specific scenarios like:

- Bullet Jumping through a door as it's opening as a nullifier is far enough behind not to open it and let you (See it) to (React to it)

- Making a (Low Efficiency Build) that's actually pretty manageable just to "Get to close" making you loose all abilities to something like a demolisher (Cries in Melee)

- Running a Melee Build for fun, just to have the whole build ruined when you inevitably get nullified by either (Having your Melee Animation Poke you through the Bubble before Hit Registration Shrinks it) or (Getting close to a Demolisher)

- Having the Bubble's Drone be either (Behind a wall) or (Behind the Bubble itself)