is 75% DR enough?

[_Anise_]

I was looking at Eclipse to potentially make some squish frames not squish but looking at the announced change the subsume version is a 75% DR capped at 75%

the DPS portion of the skill is an abysmal 30% to the base calculation now but DE justified this heavy double nerf on the back of the skill having an optional damage reduction

anyway the dps potion while suck isn't what I was focused on, I saw a few streamers suggesting the DR portion would be perfectly fine if it started at like maybe 60% and required a LOT more strength investment to bring it upto the same 90% that mirage gets.

what I am curious to know do people think a flat 75% DR (that still has to be built for duration?) is enough to matter for difficult content ?

 

Edited March 14 by _Anise_

[-Krism-]

It all depends on what frame you want to put it on, like Lavos or Qorvex are already extremely tanky, & adding another 75% on top of that would be overkill

While frames like Mag or Nyx don't need DR in the first place since they can just cancel or redirect incoming fire

 

Personally, I feel like it's fine since you can stack other abilities or mods on top of it

[taiiat]

weaker than Null Star but without having to be able to fit ludicrous Duration to use it and so it's acceptable then i guess.
it's not going to save you on its own but in assuming one is going to be stacking Adaptation or something, it'll be okay generally.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

7 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I am curious to know do people think a flat 75% DR (that still has to be built for duration?) is enough to matter for difficult content ?

Even if it was 99.9% DR, it'd still be utterly worthless at a certain level threshold. Enemy damage scaling increases exponentially from level 1000 onwards. The only reliable defensives in the game are Shield Gating and Mesmer Skin.

Maybe in early Steel Path it'll find some use. But for people that enjoy long endurance runs like myself, it's a waste of a subsume slot.

[0_The_F00l]

It's ok , nothing wrong with it.

It's kinda on par with adaptation (on average) 

so if you already play with adaptation on your frame with no other DR , you can use this and save a mod slot with similar results.

If however you play mostly with shield gating at higher levels it may feel a little low on effectiveness.

[_Anise_]

in my mind i was thinking ...

maybe banshee? yeah she has silence but its kinda jank only lasts a few seconds unless you constantly run in / out of range or are packing gloom

maybe Yareli with emphasis on maybe only because I am sure she will probably be fine with her new augement but if I wanted to free an augment slot at the cost of a subsume ?

or wisp ? she has that high health + healing, maybe 75% dr on top of that will make her more tanky?

[Traumtulpe]

The skill is only worth using on frames that are already insanely tanky. Hildryn is going to love it. It'll probably stack with other abilities - x0,05 x0,25 for Mesa for example.

[Xzorn]

It's all about layering.

Is 75% alone enough? It helps but not really. 75% + QT that's more. 75% + Armor + QT even more.

Very much disregard the current meta of "DR is worthless" because it's not. You can take 9,999 rockets to the face with team layering.
Once you break 99% the point value goes insane.

 

29 minutes ago, taiiat said:

weaker than Null Star but without having to be able to fit ludicrous Duration to use it and so it's acceptable then i guess.
it's not going to save you on its own but in assuming one is going to be stacking Adaptation or something, it'll be okay generally.

You leave my 300% Duration Nova alone!

[SneakyErvin]

75% will be massive for certain frames and certain builds. It also depends at which point in damage calculation it is applied for some frames, like OG users. I will without a doubt use it on Hildryn and potentially on Harrow since it is a nice boost to their shield sustain. The downside is that it wont be combinable with Rhino since the limitation will likely stay and keep it mutually exclusive to roar in a build.

And since it is already easy to stay long in missions with 90% DR from armor without any other forms of mitigation, the 75% from Eclipse can help frames that cannot push high armor. It may also be interesting to stack on frames that already have a source of DR from skills, since we can see how well that works on Baruuk already. And it will likely have good use on Inaros aswell. Wont be hard giving up dissecation after the rework either since sandstorm will now heal and make him immune to damage.

 

[RLanzinger]

To @_Anise_,

Lets look at my favorite squishy Frame : Nova

Base armor ~100 (DR 25%) + Health conversion (+1350ar)  => DR 83% ie ~1/6 of Damage

+ Adaptation => DR 90% ie 1/10 of Damage

+ Nullstar 18+=> DR 90% ie 1/10 of Damage

Total : 1/600 of Damage (percentile are useless at this point)

Adding more armor is useless because you need 2-3 mods to go from 1/6 to 1/10...

Adding more multiplicative DR is the way to rise up efficiency as well as weakening enemies damages (or stopping them like Mesa do)

[ReddyDisco]

75% won't save a squishy frame from sp damage by itself, you have to add more sources of dr on top to make it work, personally i will just stick to shield gating on squishy frames to have consistent immortality.

[Aruquae]

My thought process is “75% damage reduction is better than 0% damage reduction on any squishy frame.” More tanking in the end, plus it can stack with adaptation (along with shield DR). 

[TeaHands]

The augment Total Eclipse will also let you give that 75% DR to nearby allies too. So that gives it a bit more utility.

Can make a Guardian Angel Nezha with Safeguard Warding Halo and Total Eclipse.

Edited March 14 by TeaHands

[Joylesstuna]

75% just won't cut it on it's own. You will need to stack it.

[Aerikx]

75% is fine. 

Like most DR in the game it needs to be combo'd with something. And for frames that evaporate between recasts/during casting animations it's all you need to survive during that 1 second of vulnerability.

My mind keeps thinking of Baruuk and Gara and how well they do before hitting the DR cap. 

(Context: I used to mod Baruuk absolutely ass if not nearly auto-mod level wrong as I didn't understand the Desolate Hands DR mechanic and I still pushed him very, very, very far in The Circuit.) 

Eclipse + Adaptation will be very handy for a number of squishy frames. 

It's either that or a combo of Armor Shards + Mods + Adaptation for them to have any chance at survival.

[Xzorn]

12 minutes ago, TeaHands said:

The augment Total Eclipse will also let you give that 75% DR to nearby allies too. So that gives it a bit more utility.

Can make a Guardian Angel Nezha with Safeguard Warding Halo and Total Eclipse.

 

Oh hey, Yea.

Now that it doesn't have a meme worthy range of 8m it can actually be used.

[MutoManiac]

I like at least 3 armor shards on my squishy frames. Before shards, I would not take them into SP very much. I only do 45 mins max in SP and it's more than enough. I also really like health regen shards and have 5 on Nova so I don't use adaptation, etc. Looking forward to also adding the new Eclipse to the mix which should be plenty unless like others have mentioned and you want to go to very high levels.

[RichardKam]

I am an advocate of health tanking on squishy frames. 75% DR, in most contents, is very OK.

Just like damage, you want to stack different layer of DR multiplicatively to minimize the diminishing return. A setup of blue archon shards + aracne guardian + adaptation will give you sufficient DR to survive most of the SP contents.

Eclipse provides an extra 75% DR on top of the existing setup is great, not to mention it also provides damage boost in one single ability.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, MutoManiac said:

I like at least 3 armor shards on my squishy frames. Before shards, I would not take them into SP very much. I only do 45 mins max in SP and it's more than enough. I also really like health regen shards and have 5 on Nova so I don't use adaptation, etc. Looking forward to also adding the new Eclipse to the mix which should be plenty unless like others have mentioned and you want to go to very high levels.

I think the bolded part is important to consider and is really what it comes down to if Eclipse will be worth it or not for someone. A player should ask themselves "how long/what do I plan to run?". Obviously players that will go to level cap will say "not worth it", but if a player has other plans as standard gameplay such an answer shouldnt be relevant to them. It all really comes back to the old "armor and health mods are pointless" that was the standard statement from people running to level cap. Something that several people listened to even if they were never going that far, or far enough for the mods to loose all meaning. Instead those players gimped themselves in the content they actually did, making it harder than needed and introduced 1HK from enemies earlier than a build with hp and armor mods would.

Heck the only reason I'm not already using Eclipse on many squishier frames is because it isnt reliable currently, a flat 75% DR buff that is always there will be nice. I'll likely use Mirage's personal 90% version aswell since it is the same there, currently not reliable to provide enough DR. Never really see a massive use of her damage buff since we already deal alot of damage in the content I do. Increasing TTL also increases the potential to stay for aslong as I like since it isnt damage that is lacking.

[UnstarPrime]

75% DR gives you 4 times the survivability.  Naturally it will depend on what your build is and what content you're up against, but that's nothing to sneeze at and will give frames that are normally squishy a new tool to use if they'd like to build themselves to be durable.

[ominumi]

Eclipse DR isn't affected by ability strength or range so a lot of frames can take advantage of that.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The downside is that it wont be combinable with Rhino since the limitation will likely stay and keep it mutually exclusive to roar in a build.

Does Total Eclipse DR affect Ironskin?  Eclipse DR doesn't affect Recompense Overguard, so I wouldn't think so.  But WF  is full of surprises. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

Does Total Eclipse DR affect Ironskin?  Eclipse DR doesn't affect Recompense Overguard, so I wouldn't think so.  But WF  is full of surprises. 

Probably not if regular Eclipse DR doesnt. I was more thinking if it did it would be unusable on Rhino anyways. But since Eclipse DR doesnt work on OG I guess that leaves it as "no" option on those frames. Which makes me think it wont work on Merulina either. It could be interesting on Nezha to help him avoid potential 1HKs when Halo goes poof, unless the bug also ignores Eclipse mitigation heh.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

maybe banshee?

If you want to health tank for whatever reason it'll extend her capability and comfort ceiling.  73% DR (from armor) with 1000 health and incidental shieldgate is enough for me for 1 hr SP, although it gets my heart rate up quite high after 40 minutes, and starts depending more and more on the shieldgate.   (I think I could take it somewhat higher, but 1 hour is really pushing it hard for my fingers and attention span.)

Stack it on top of that armor  and that's 93% DR.  Which I don't think would raise my upper limit any significant measure, but make it  more comfortable getting there.  If you  want to stack that with Adaptation it's 98%+

However I'd personally rather inject Breach Surge as long as it retains the ability to blind eximus.  Plus rad procs and headshot fireworks, yeehah.

I may still contemplate Eclipse on a few frames that are already tanky.

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which makes me think it wont work on Merulina either.

On Merulina's health pool?  The wiki says Total Eclipse doesn't work on that currently.  If you mean on the DR Yareli gets from Merulina, I don't know.  Although I would either expect it to work or expect the wiki to say something about it if it didn't.

[_Anise_]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Hildryn is going to love it

tbh I was considering her but wasn't sure? I did a long sp defense with a friend one time and it go to the point where pillage + near constantly shieldgating were the only thing keeping me alive, still agree think at least in my head it sounds good

though adaption may just be better in that case because it can ramp all the way to 90% dr?

 

3 hours ago, TeaHands said:

The augment Total Eclipse will also let you give that 75% DR to nearby allies too. So that gives it a bit more utility.

Can make a Guardian Angel Nezha with Safeguard Warding Halo and Total Eclipse.

this has to be my favorite idea, I religiously use safeguard even when solo because I can cast it on my companion (when sentinel/safeguard isn't broken DE!!) and Nezha himself dosn't really need the extra DR so It could probably be used to flip to DPS for solo play, sadly means giving up 2 slots to augments but still sounds fun

  

14 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

On Merulina's health pool?

when I mentioned yareli I meant eclypse instead of Merulina but the guardian augment will probably just be better

Edited March 14 by _Anise_