Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[(PSN)rexis12]

So you're going to test out a completely new change to a mechanic that has been an issue for years and years and years, just because you won't suck it up and revert the changes. 

You guys took over a YEAR for the most basic feature of "Overguard cancels out CC" And you expect us to believe you'll fix one of the longest standing and frustrating issues over a HOT FIX?! 

Yeah, pull the other leg.

[Primed_Kryztal]

Just remove Line of Sight all together. It doesn't make any sense (in my head at least). It's not like this game has been a Be a God-Simulator and with the recent other frames before Dante we didn't expect any nerfs because of how amazingly powerful they were from the start and nothing came from you. And now you do this to Dante because LoS still exists in the game and you just wanted to adjust it.

Please DE, please Pablo, just listen to us and remove it. I know your communication has gotten better over time but it can't be real that you still haven't gotten to this particular feedback yet.

[KaosKuantico]

We don't want a better Line of Sight, we don't want it at all. Remove it and we'll be at peace 

[MetalMechabolic]

Also, nice change.  The LoS check is dependent on the camera AND it starts on the feet.  If you are standing by some rubble that is next to your feet then good luck hitting anything.  Forget this, I'm just gonna farm Octiva.  I get the message DE.  ;A;

[.LeiA._]

Hey, maybe for Jade, the next Warframe, don't give her any good or fun skills. Just give her the most basic and boring skills with okay damage, so players won't get sad or mad when you nerf her.

[Primed_Kryztal]

Just now, Primed_Kryztal said:

Just remove Line of Sight all together. It doesn't make any sense (in my head at least). It's not like this game has been a Be a God-Simulator and with the recent other frames before Dante we didn't expect any nerfs because of how amazingly powerful they were from the start and nothing came from you. And now you do this to Dante because LoS still exists in the game and you just wanted to adjust it.

Please DE, please Pablo, just listen to us and remove it. I know your communication has gotten better over time but it can't be real that you still haven't gotten to this particular feedback yet.

On top of that; It took you 11 YEARS (!) to remove sticky corners just because a dev from SOULFRAME knew how to fix it. It makes it look like you don't know your game from all corners which is a bit sad.

[JackTheSwordman]

Just remove the LoS please. At least pretend to listen to the literal thousands of complains you received in regards to this awful choice. 

So many people paid to have Dante early and support you DE and now so many of them regret their purchase. (And so many of them are looking to get refunds so maybe that makes you change your mind you corpus wannabes)

So many people were excited for a new fun and decent frame (myself included) and now so many regret wasting their forma and time on Dante. But I guess that is too much to ask and now everyone will go back to their Saryn, Gauss, Mirage and Titania.

Own up to your mistakes and revert this nerf DE. 

[yeahnil]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Siic07:

Revert the nerf and remove OG from allies, that's what everyone wants but you don't look at what the players are saying.

This @[DE]Pablo There's 100 pages of this across multiple threads. If you don't then nerf ALL nuking frames to LOS

[Stomno]

hace 40 minutos, Kerlism dijo:

Is it really this hard to admit these Dante changes were awful and just revert it?

DE admiting something? OMG you ask too much

[Prism77]

Remove Line of Sight entirely. That way you don't even have to worry about "fixing" it. It's so simple.

[Leylin394]

I don't understand. When the entire community tells you these changes are bad and want a revert, why do you ignore them ? Like just weighs the pros and cons :

Pros : Players are happy, they have fun, they play more/spend money or whatever.

Cons : I don't even know ? What was the issue with Dante to begin with that wasn't an issue with any of the S tier frames ? (Saryn, Gauss, Wisp etc)

[-ShadowRadiance-]

1 minute ago, yeahnil said:

This @[DE]Pablo There's 100 pages of this across multiple threads. If you don't then nerf ALL nuking frames to LOS

This. Add the same LoS to 

Saryn. 

Mirage. 
Gara.

Equinox.

And more..

[Drachnyn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb [DE]Pablo:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

Will you take a look at the divine spear augment nerf aswell? That was equally rushed.

[Kuwagata]

The most frustrating thing is that one post go, you guys say you're listening to our feedback, in which the majority commented how the whole nerf should be rollbacked and instead, focus on the OG generation for squadmates.

But no, instead of that, you guys are doubling down on the LoS that simply don't work or fit Dante, a spellcaster, at all.

Why make all this? Like honestly, why ask what do we think and want just to ignore us and pretend you didn't read/listened to the feedback? If you're just going to straight up ignore the players' opinions, why even make a thread about it?

I'm so disappointed, Dante was one of the frames with the concept I liked and awaited the most, just to see it being dragged to being unfun, while Saryn, Mesa, Octavia, Styanax and others that rely on similar mechanics go wild.

Why though? 

 

[Chewarette]

Will this fix Garuda, or does the stealth undocumented change you've made to her is that she has 0 penetration nowadays anyway, so at best it'll only fix the Talons missing enemies in plain sight ?

Edited April 5 by Chewarette

[(PSN)Arkel-99]

Could have just reduced the base radius by like 25% (from 30m to something like 20-25m) if you truly believe Tragedy was being able to hit too many enemies at once too easily. Never mind the fact that only hitting enemies with just Tragedy still won't insta-kill Steel Path enemies without inflicting status effects on them first. But for whatever reason balance is still being done like we are in 2016 and Void-key farming, with level 100 Orokin (regular path) in mind as being "peak endgame".

Fixing line-of-sight still doesn't change the fact that it feels bad no matter what, too many tilesets with corridors or clutter..

And I also still see no word on Wordwarden not properly inheriting damage-mods from Noctua, and Noctua itself still feeling underwhelming when trying to go for a damage-build.

[MistressOfDreams]

Just now, Leylin394 said:

6 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

So you're going to test out a completely new change to a mechanic that has been an issue for years and years and years, just because you won't suck it up and revert the changes. 

You guys took over a YEAR for the most basic feature of "Overguard cancels out CC" And you expect us to believe you'll fix one of the longest standing and frustrating issues over a HOT FIX?! 

Yeah, pull the other leg.

Oh yeah, about Overguard cancelling CC, check the other patch notes -_-

[LorekeeperZinnia]

Just remove the LoS & Nerf the Damage a bit, Dante was completely fine before

[II_Vextra_II]

49 minutes ago, Vazumongr said:

I guess I'm in the minority when I say I am in favor of LoS checks and believe that mindless one-button-nukes in a 30m+ radius are bad for the overall health of the game in majority of cases. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree. If the LoS change works as intended, Dante will once again be able to nuke, except now you can't just turn your brain off and spam 4 to kill enemies in the next room over. People get irrationally upset on here when busted gear gets nerfed to make it less busted. Not enough people want to admit that Dante was way too powerful on release.

[DarthVZ]

No. Revert everything, this is the only way to keep some goodwill. By being stubborn you only hurt your reputation and potential sales. 

Edited April 5 by DarthVZ

[NightmareT12]

2 minutes ago, Kuwagata said:

The most frustrating thing is that one post go, you guys say you're listening to our feedback, in which the majority commented how the whole nerf should be rollbacked and instead, focus on the OG generation for squadmates.

But no, instead of that, you guys are doubling down on the LoS that simply don't work or fit Dante, a spellcaster, at all.

I just want to note here that DE stated the changes made yesterday did not end up where not reflecting the intention they wanted with the Line of Sight, hence the quick update today. Doesn't mean they're staying there 100%, this is just Pablo explaining why the Line of Sight mechanic that shipped was not behaving how they ideally wanted, if that makes sense.

[PhiZero]

Strange question, @[DE]Pablo

I understand that visibility of said body part will qualify the target to be influenced by abilities, ie, partial visibility around a corner or crate.

But, how will this interact with surfaces with "slits?" Such as the stairways in the Grineer Astroid tileset. Will the new LoS check consider this as direct line of sight, or will it be blocked by the collision/hitbox of the steps?

Edited April 5 by PhiZero

[Crackensan]

1 hour ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

But Gyre can do this: https://new.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1bwb38m/in_honor_of_dantes_nerf_here_is_gyre_nuking_a/
Octavia; Saryn; Thermal Sunder; NONE of these require line of Sight but the BRAND NEW Warframe gets beaten over the head with a LOS Check?

[Kuwagata]

1 minute ago, NightmareT12 said:

I just want to note here that DE stated the changes made yesterday did not end up where not reflecting the intention they wanted with the Line of Sight, hence the quick update today. Doesn't mean they're staying there 100%, this is just Pablo explaining why the Line of Sight mechanic that shipped was not behaving how they ideally wanted, if that makes sense.

That's good to hear. I hope they actually listen to us 

[Jarriaga]

57 minutes ago, DenisJaguar said:

At least Jade the new warframe coming later this year know exactly what will happen to her 1 week after release.

With the lesson being don't buy new frames with Plat.