So, 950p and $24.99 will get me all three heirloom collections?

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

According to the Heirloom Collection F.A.Q.

https://www.warframe.com/news/heirloom-collections-faq#:~:text=No!,the availability window going forward.

It's a good thing Ember Heirloom collection will come with some platinum, buying those dope Frost and Mag collections will wipe me out.

Actually, I'll just take the skins. Everything else in either collection is kind of meh.

 

Edited June 3 by (PSN)Magician_NG
sentence structure

[Corvid]

Incorrect. Frost and Mag aren't coming back, what they're saying is that any and all future heirloom packs will be available semi-permanently.

[Zakkhar]

Not and. Or.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Incorrect. Frost and Mag aren't coming back, what they're saying is that any and all future heirloom packs will be available semi-permanently.

"Platinum purchase paths for both Heirloom Collections and individual Heirloom items will live on forever through the in-game Market (Heirloom Collections purchasable via real world currency will remain time-limited, however)."

Oh?

Then why the use of the plural in the last sentence in the F.A.Q.?

Why write "both" when only one is coming? 

 

[Tesla_Reloaded]

1 минуту назад, (PSN)Magician_NG сказал:

Why write "both" when only one is coming? 

Because not one is coming. There will be another, released later this year.

[(PSN)Unstar]

I see what OP is saying; the wording here is very unfortunate as it contains two consecutive sentences that are can reasonably be interpreted as suggesting that Mag and Frost Heirlooms will be purchasable.  I watched the Devstream and came away with a very clear impression that the Mag and Frost Heirlooms were in the past, but upon my first reading of this section I was confused and thought that DE might have genuinely decided to bring them back.  I had to re-read these sentences several times to find both possible interpretations and thus clarify the miscommunication.

 

Quote

While purchases of the Mag and Frost Heirloom Collections were halted after December 31, 2023, we will be permanently extending the availability window going forward.

The availability window of what?  The structure of this sentence would lead many to believe that "availability window" refers to "the Mag and Frost Heirloom Collections".  It would be much better if DE was more explicit here, because I assume they mean "future heirloom collections".

 

Quote

Platinum purchase paths for both Heirloom Collections and individual Heirloom items will live on forever through the in-game Market (Heirloom Collections purchasable via real world currency will remain time-limited, however).

This sentence directly follows the last one, and thus the word "both" here can be interpreted in two ways:

• both (Heirloom Collections and individual Heirloom items)
• (both Heirloom Collections) and individual Heirloom items

In the latter, "both Heirloom Collections" could reasonably refer to "both the Mag and Frost Heirloom collections".

 

Overall, the point is that the wording is ambiguous enough to be ripe for confusion, and that's definitely something DE will want to avoid after last year.  Hopefully they can address this.

[Corvid]

Just now, (PSN)Magician_NG said:

"Platinum purchase paths for both Heirloom Collections and individual Heirloom items will live on forever through the in-game Market (Heirloom Collections purchasable via real world currency will remain time-limited, however)."

Oh?

Then why the use of the plural in the last sentence in the F.A.Q.?

Why write "both" when only one is coming? 

 

Because it's referring to two categories. Both "Heirloom Collections" and "individual Heirloom items". As in full sets and the composite parts that make them.

The devs have explicitly stated on multiple occasions that the previous heirloom packs are not coming back, and the FAQ even draws a distinction between this heirloom and the ones from 2023 in the answer to the first question.

As someone who bought them, I genuinely wish this were not the case so more people could get these skins, but it's not my decision to make.

[Joylesstuna]

30 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I see what OP is saying; the wording here is very unfortunate as it contains two consecutive sentences that are can reasonably be interpreted as suggesting that Mag and Frost Heirlooms will be purchasable.  I watched the Devstream and came away with a very clear impression that the Mag and Frost Heirlooms were in the past, but upon my first reading of this section I was confused and thought that DE might have genuinely decided to bring them back.  I had to re-read these sentences several times to find both possible interpretations and thus clarify the miscommunication.

 

The availability window of what?  The structure of this sentence would lead many to believe that "availability window" refers to "the Mag and Frost Heirloom Collections".  It would be much better if DE was more explicit here, because I assume they mean "future heirloom collections".

 

This sentence directly follows the last one, and thus the word "both" here can be interpreted in two ways:

• both (Heirloom Collections and individual Heirloom items)
• (both Heirloom Collections) and individual Heirloom items

In the latter, "both Heirloom Collections" could reasonably refer to "both the Mag and Frost Heirloom collections".

 

Overall, the point is that the wording is ambiguous enough to be ripe for confusion, and that's definitely something DE will want to avoid after last year.  Hopefully they can address this.

Their wording, especially the availability window, lead me to believe frost and mag was coming back. That's kinda a bummer.

[Hobie-wan]

They said many many times last year and since that the Mag and Frost ones were going to be gone as of the end of last year and wouldn't be returning.

[zThulsaDoomz]

As I've stated in a previous thread, the promised exclusivity of the Frost/Mag heirloom set is what convinced myself and others to purchase them.

DE going back on their word would be like a slap in the face for those who made said purchase and honestly would lead to a request for a refund at that point.

As unpopular as a decision to have the bundle as limited time only is, imo going back on their word would be worse.

[ShogunGunshow]

8 minutes ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

As unpopular as a decision to have the bundle as limited time only is, imo going back on their word would be worse.

Nah.

Get it sorted out with the various platforms, offer the two heirlooms for purchase again (at the same price as before), and offer refunds to people who purchased the original package for around a year or so. The amount that would actually take them up on this offer would probably be small. 

Either that, or offer Mag/Frost Heirloom Umbra, which has some tiny amount of extra filigree and is nearly identical.

Exclusive-forever stuff is dumb, and yes, before anyone asks, if I could snap my fingers I'd let everyone have Excal Prime at this point. 

[Tiltskillet]

4 minutes ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

As I've stated in a previous thread, the promised exclusivity of the Frost/Mag heirloom set is what convinced myself and others to purchase them.

DE going back on their word would be like a slap in the face for those who made said purchase and honestly would lead to a request for a refund at that point.

As unpopular as a decision to have the bundle as limited time only is, imo going back on their word would be worse.

I didn't buy the heirlooms, and really disliked the way they were set up, but feel pretty much the same way.  They should have fixed the issue at the time, and offered return refunds to people who valued the exclusivity.  (Perhaps they could still do this, but I haven't put a lot of thought into it.)  Anyway, assuming refunds aren't on the table, they should at least stick to the promises made to people who did buy.

I'm curious though:  would getting a refund now satisfy you, or still leave a bad taste?

[trst]

3 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Nah.

Get it sorted out with the various platforms, offer the two heirlooms for purchase again (at the same price as before), and offer refunds to people who purchased the original package for around a year or so. The amount that would actually take them up on this offer would probably be small. 

Either that, or offer Mag/Frost Heirloom Umbra, which has some tiny amount of extra filigree and is nearly identical.

Exclusive-forever stuff is dumb, and yes, before anyone asks, if I could snap my fingers I'd let everyone have Excal Prime at this point. 

Ignoring the issue of the logistics of refunds and the possible legal issues that still leaves them with a major problem. That DE can never sell anything exclusive again. As if they broke the promise once in the face of those potential issues then why wouldn't they do it again? As well any time they go back to honoring exclusivity would be met with just as much backlash. 

Now I'm not saying no exclusives period is a bad thing. However you should always expect changes to monetization as a monkey paw issue. And worry that if never bundling/FOMOing again wouldn't push them into more/worse monetization elsewhere.

And you can't just expect good will to carry the difference. Exclusivity, FOMO, and whales in general are major contributors to income for F2P models. Especially when virtually every industry cares about nothing other than growth. 

 

All that said at this point I also couldn't care less one way or the other what they do with it. But it would still stop me from ever taking their "exclusive" claims seriously anymore. 

[zThulsaDoomz]

25 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm curious though:  would getting a refund now satisfy you, or still leave a bad taste?

Honestly, I'd be fine with a refund if they were to re-release the bundle

I bought them for 2 reasons: I genuinely enjoy the game and wish to support it (even though DE has some wtf moments), and I wanted a cosmetic that very few others had.  Pretty much a flex if you will.

I sympathize with the frustration, but unfortunately I'm kind of on the other side of the fence on this one.

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

 

I sympathize with the frustration, but unfortunately I'm kind of on the other side of the fence on this one.

Well to be clear, I'm not on the frustrated side of the fence.   Although I might have been if instead of Mag and Frost skins it had been Banshee and Loki. 

[PublikDomain]

10 minutes ago, trst said:

As if they broke the promise once in the face of those potential issues then why wouldn't they do it again? As well any time they go back to honoring exclusivity would be met with just as much backlash. 

I mean... they've already been doing this for a long time. DE regularly breaks their "promise" of exclusivity and this isn't new. Lato/Braton Vandal being given to everyone, "exclusive" Prime Access cosmetics later being brought back in the Primed Vault/Resurgence, the huge pile of "exclusive" Twitch Prime and Prime Gaming cosmetics now available through Varzia, the "exclusive" Supporter packs they just recently made permanent additions as Tribute packs. There's also stuff like Primed Chamber being given to everyone and Ignis Wraith research being given to every clan, even though these were given as rewards for winning events. Where's the backlash been any of these times? Small, infrequent, and drowned out by the waves of praise from all the people in our community now getting to participate and enjoy this content too.

8 minutes ago, trst said:

And you can't just expect good will to carry the difference. Exclusivity, FOMO, and whales in general are major contributors to income for F2P models. Especially when virtually every industry cares about nothing other than growth. 

I'm curious about this income/growth angle. These two Heirlooms were available for a few months. Income. Now they aren't being sold ever again. Zero income. Why would the sales for a few months be expected to outpace the sales for the rest of all time?

[ShogunGunshow]

46 minutes ago, trst said:

 That DE can never sell anything exclusive again.

[trst]

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I mean... they've already been doing this for a long time. DE regularly breaks their "promise" of exclusivity and this isn't new. Lato/Braton Vandal being given to everyone, "exclusive" Prime Access cosmetics later being brought back in the Primed Vault/Resurgence, the huge pile of "exclusive" Twitch Prime and Prime Gaming cosmetics now available through Varzia, the "exclusive" Supporter packs they just recently made permanent additions as Tribute packs. There's also stuff like Primed Chamber being given to everyone and Ignis Wraith research being given to every clan, even though these were given as rewards for winning events. Where's the backlash been any of these times? Small, infrequent, and drowned out by the waves of praise from all the people in our community now getting to participate and enjoy this content too.

The key difference here is that those weren't sold with the up front claim that they'll never be obtainable again. As well some of those still had the exclusivity of being unobtainable for years since their addition and/or remained cash only.

Also it's one thing to bring a cash only item back after a few months but for plat. And another thing entirely to bring it back for cash years later. Exclusivity is still retained in one of these.

The entire issue would be different if they never said the Heirlooms wouldn't return and only called them exclusive. 

17 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm curious about this income/growth angle. These two Heirlooms were available for a few months. Income. Now they aren't being sold ever again. Zero income. Why would the sales for a few months be expected to outpace the sales for the rest of all time?

If the system didn't work then it wouldn't be propping up entire genres of games/industries. Plus due to the growth focused nature of companies it's always more preferable to see a large amount of income over a short period than to have to wait a few years to see that same amount. Especially as they can keep repeating the same process and spacing them out stops them from competing with their own goods.

Which we see is exactly what DE's plan was from the beginning with already having another Heirloom and Ember's Resurgence being so delayed. And even though they've removed most of the FOMO it's still there in the limited time cash option which will appeal to many players more than the plat route. 

And all of this is also exactly why Prime Access works the way it does. As having them be purchasable at all times wouldn't bring in as much money as fast as it does.

 

Now is any of that ideal? No. But for any of that to change you'd need a whole lot more than the gaming industry to shift. And good luck is all that can be said there. 

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Also it's one thing to bring a cash only item back after a few months but for plat. And another thing entirely to bring it back for cash years later. Exclusivity is still retained in one of these.

But they just did the former. The Deimos Supporter pack was cash-only, limited time, exclusive content and is now back for plat, forever, and no longer exclusive. It was sold with the up front claim that it was exclusive - and now it's not.

1 hour ago, trst said:

The key difference here is that those weren't sold with the up front claim that they'll never be obtainable again. As well some of those still had the exclusivity of being unobtainable for years since their addition and/or remained cash only.

It really feels like whenever I bring this up that the immediate response is always some weaseling around on the wording to try and eke out some sort of linguistic loophole. Well they didn't say XYZ would always be exclusive. And they never said who it would be exclusive to! Yeah they said to get it before it's gone, but they just meant to get it before it's gone for now. Sure they said it's available for a limited time, but they never said this was the only limited time to get it. Oh, they said that it's available for a limited time only? Well yeah, it'll only be available in limited time chunks. Etc.

And if you can creatively interpret those claims, can't you do the same for Heirlooms? Check DE's specific claims made about exclusivity and availability on the Heirloom page. Which thing is limited and one-time only and only available until December 31st? The Collections. The big cash bundles with the plat and the Regal Aya and such. They don't say anything about some future plat Heirloom Tribute Packs being one-time-only! Weasel weasel weasel. All they say about the cosmetics themselves are that they're exclusive and that it's your only chance to get them, neither of which seems to matter in any of these other examples. Oh and that the cosmetics will only be in bundles and won't be available individually. But they could just do a Mag and Signa bundle and a Frost and Signa bundle so that particular claim is a bit of a shrug.

1 hour ago, trst said:

Now is any of that ideal? No. But for any of that to change you'd need a whole lot more than the gaming industry to shift. And good luck is all that can be said there. 

As an industry it does actually seem to be shifting. FOMOs and exclusives are becoming less and less acceptable every time there's some new controversy, and pushback from consumers is more frequent and vocal than ever. Is it League that got in hot water just recently for its $500 or whatever skins? Trends change, and to me at least it feels like FOMO is starting to reach its tipping point. It's definitely reaching that point over here!

Edited June 4 by PublikDomain

[Caerith]

1 hour ago, trst said:

If the system didn't work then it wouldn't be propping up entire genres of games/industries.

The only examples of this I can think of are where there's an aftermarket for the people who bought the items to sell them to someone else later.  Supreme, sneakers, etc.  The only time I've seen it come up in games is when they were trying to justify NFTs. 

Warframe cosmetics can't be resold, so it's not really comparable. 

[Hexerin]

The amount of people that fail at basic reading comprehension these days is just... saddening. Really shows how broken the school system is now.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Unfortunately you can't OP. 

To address some of the things in the thread. 

Yeah, several times DE have used particular wording, like "Final sale on exclusive Supporter Pack. Limited Time Only. Get this before they are gone. Only available from this pack", only for such bundles, items, so on, have returned, in some way or other. Not only that, sometimes, DE have then gone and adjusted wording on certain older pages, which is a good thing,  updating info and all that. Like their are certain cosmetics, like Noggles or certain cosmetics from other promotions, you can now get from Regal Aya, so making sure consumers can get them in other ways, is good. However it can also lead to people who might know the past, not understanding or realising why present arguments might not be that convincing or compelling as far as staking it on the idea or principal that "DE wouldn't do that". 

Now I get why some people may be more apprehensive about Heirlooms, but its kind of funny, they were actually referenced as being Supporter Pack style when announced the day of (there was a sort of leak a bit before, so many of us were discussing it before then and speculating). What happened to other Supporter Packs that were said to be limited time? Also, even in the literal trailer for them at Tennocon, they used those words again "limited time". So I say its kind of funny, because I remember some people back then, self included asking, well, what does that mean exactly? Given past situations? So much so I get the sense, that when it came to having the page for Heirlooms, whoever had or has to make decisions about such things, may have wanted to emphasis these skins really have to be limited. So, and, or to use stronger wording, just so people don't rest on the idea they could maybe get it sometime later. See sometimes they just say limited time offer, other times, they say that, and they say, get it now, before its gone. Now, they are saying, "limited time exclusive, these will not return." Next time it might be, "limited time offer exclusive, you really really want to get this, its definitely not coming back, we triple swear on Ballas grave*." Then after that, "limited time exclusive final offer, last chance, legally bound pinky promise swear, this time its actually for real, not like that last time, but when we say legally bound, well are you a lawyer and did you real our EULA and the asterisk, and the small print, ahah, just kidding but really, buy the thing."

So to be clear, I personally acknowledge the wording was pretty strong regarding Heirlooms (original). Also I am not a lawyer or legal expert, that being said, if my time on various Forums has indicated anything to me, is that people with far less time studying the law, in general, let alone the specifics that might be involved with such a case, and with far less general knowledge on relevant subjects, always seem fine with making hard claims let alone just speculating generally, so... Usually businesses don't like hamstringing. That and what I know of various false advertising laws/legislation is that, well it can be complicated. Like there is often an emphasis in intent, establishing deception, so on. For example if Mike's Bikes owner, Gregg, puts out a poster that this week (gives the date period), all his special blue bikes will be half price, $50, instead of $100, so get them before they ride away forever! Then Sally goes in and buys one of those blue bikes... but then the week after notices a new poster with a new date range, and the same advertising... and then she goes to Mikes Bikes, and speaks to Gregg, and Gregg is like "Ehhhh well, we made good business last week, so I just decided to do it again. What are you going to do about it? Sue me" lol! Well... Thing is, some laws are more nuance in that, well, lets say hypothetically Sally goes in on the first day of the sale, to get a blue bike, and she sees Gregg and there are no blue bikes to buy and Gregg is like "Sorry Sally, but the ship that carries our blue bikes was captured by pirates and it got stuck in the Panama Canal. Though I can write down your name, and details and if we get a hold of the shipment, I can list you as being entitled to the same discounted sale price, whenever we do get more stock, it just might not be this week" that might not actually be Gregg being liable, due to unforeseen forces, external causes beyond their reasonable control. Alternatively, if two years pass, and the Blue Bike manufacturer gives Gregg a big discount on blue bikes, and he starts to have too many blue bikes, and he decides to run another sale.. is he liable? Well thats where it can get a bit tricky, because his original intent wasn't deceitful at all, it was genuine. That being said, some of his wording on the poster "get them before they ride away forever" could be said to have induced or pressure Sally to make a purchase she might otherwise not have, and now the opportunity to get the blue bike for cheaper is occurring again... 

McDonalds has had multiple McRib farewell tours (they come back though too), several wrestlers have retirement matches, that were advertised as that wrestlers final match (they sometimes come back though), but these things have their own nuances and complexities. As far as I personally know, there hasn't yet been a lawsuit to create a precedent over a digital video game item, being advertised as limited time only and touted as not returning, but then actually coming back/returning. If there has been, please, please feel free to let me know. 

Well actually, there are some situations which could be kind of similar and relevant. IIRC No Man's Sky had some legal issues around false advertising, but a bit different in that it wasn't so much a cosmetic item/item being sold but brought back, but the general experience of the game seeming misleading (from trailers and dev claims), exaggerated to what players got. So it was Hello Games who were investigated, IIRC it was a UK case? I believe they were cleared and the findings were published. Semi relevant, that game ended up adding a bunch of features and won back a decent bit of goodwill from a lot of people, who were initially critical. I say all this as an outsider to that game though, and who just hears things online. Also weirdly, they settled a lawsuit... with Sky TV, over naming stuff. 

That and there is other stuff to consider. Recently some players (small minority) started talking about "false advertising with Dante" and I have seen it pop up other places too, but like... as a threat? Well its only really a threat if they are actually being followed up on by people. Except its not that simple or cheap. Then depending on what country you are in, or how you go about it legally, Well different countries organisations/agencies (legal, consumer rights etc) set up to address such situations, can have different priorities. Often more related to physical items, items around peoples health, livelihoods, "damages". and then and this is something many mobile games exploit, because they use a "download for free" model there are these other weird legal loopholes they exist in, again, at least to my current understanding. Some, to my knowledge have been addressed by agencies like the FTC, but usually its the ones that are really egregious and particularly manipulative, in a way which is pretty straight forward to explain to a person who might not know much about games. 

So there may be legal issues, but I am not a lawyer or expert. I mean I know more about the topic than my 5 year old cousin, but I wouldn't say with confidence one way or the other. Personally? I think games companies should avoid such language at all. Not just because of personal opinionated reasons, but because they are inducing/pressure tactics. Also personally, I give more leeway to DE because Warframe is specifically rated (well its ESRB rating) is M. Which to my understanding was reached with DE's input. I also speculate, that even though video games have been a thing for like over 30 years, its still a relatively new medium, and one that has growing and continues to grow, as the technology that enables it does. Law and legal systems, consumer rights agencies, FTC etc, sometimes such organisations can be slow to react and catch up. I remember coming across a really interesting video a few years back, between a younger (lawyer I think) and either an older lawyer or someone else in the legal system, maybe a judge? Just someone older who just had no clue about modern games, aside from like... Pac-Man. I did come across a paper called Rated "M" for Misleading: How Deceptive, Anti-Consumer Practices in the Videogame Industry Became the New Norm that was decent, as far as talking about a few different issues. 

I speculate (yeah I forget to actually say what I was speculating and just gave context above) that in coming years, there are going to be improved and strong regulations that are more specifically designed to address various games marketing, and sales techniques, as more money stays in games, and more people familiar with games, from their youths, get into law, the legal system, and just generally progress around career paths. Still dealing with complicated variables though, so again, speculation. Not just that but there can be consumer backlash and other types of backlash. Variables like flooding the market, competitors using different tactics and succeeding. Certain games that buck trends succeeding, and potentially succeeding because they buck the trend, (which can then see imitators). 

I also think that DE specifically should be the type of games developer that bucks the trend over predatory game marketing tactics. As a fan of Warframe, and DE that does want them to succeed, its way easier to root for the underdog, and defend it, when they seem to value consumer friendly practices, and make more decisions like Ember Heirloom than the original Heirlooms. I was going to buy Gauss and Protea Prime Access (two of my favs, was likely going to get the Accessories packages, I like grinding for the actual Primes), because I usually do buy one or two Prime Access Accessories a year. Didn't specifically because Mag and Frost Heirloom. Which is like... a hard metric for DE to measure, "anti sales" versus actual sales, but once Ember Heirloom launches, my goodwill is back, and I am excited to occasionally support them again. (Lavos Prime!!) 

Personally any time I spend money towards Warframe, its really more to support them. My purchasing usually corresponds roughly to updates, like I thought New War was good, Angels of Zariman great, Whispers great, but with Whispers, even though I thought it was some of Warframes best... well, Heirlooms happened... Also, when I personally spend money, its never for exclusive stuff, the opposite, if each of my purchase came with an option to tick a box saying "I desire others have the opportunity to get these items too", I would tick that and give a tip.  I understand those that feel differently though too. Just may you never get excited about a game elsewhere, want to partake in something cool, only to discover you can't, because only some people can, even if its just a digital item. 

[-ShadowRadiance-]

11 hours ago, (PSN)Magician_NG said:

"Platinum purchase paths for both Heirloom Collections and individual Heirloom items will live on forever through the in-game Market (Heirloom Collections purchasable via real world currency will remain time-limited, however)."

Oh?

Then why the use of the plural in the last sentence in the F.A.Q.?

Why write "both" when only one is coming? 

 

The one after ember will be shown at tennocon

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

The one after ember will be shown at tennocon

I missed the tennocon reveal being confirmed. 

Heres hoping its a frame i actually use, like garuda.

[PublikDomain]

10 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

The one after ember will be shown at tennocon

Did they say that? They did say it was one skin at a time now, and that they'd have more details at Tennocon, but I don't remember them talking about what would be after Ember.