We should have a Primed Stretch

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

The thing is, your perceived solutions sort of work around assumption, speculation, and in a way which also seems like self referential reasoning. So even if this isn't it exactly, it can read like "I'd personally want this, and if the issue is other peoples builds pushing the limits too much, just make a Primed Stretch incompatible with Overextended. Easy". Except... Thats still going to push builds in a general direction of power. Any builds thats still use Stretch by itself are still going to see increases in effectiveness, and you are still going to create issues around why someone mods are incompatible with some, and some are not. Like what about all the people that want Primed Stretch but without the limitation, just because some peoples builds won't be effected and see benefits anyway? Which regardless still wouldn't necessarily be why and how DE decide to release a Primed Mod anyway... 

For example ever since the introduction and increased accessibility of Shards/Tau Shards, many Range builds were implicitly/shadow buffed, indirectly buffed etc, because all one needs to do is use their mod spaces for attributes that can't be factored or increased via other means, and then using other tools to compensate/cover elsewhere (like shards. Which is something the game does a lot (additional sources of CC with Avenger, Negative Efficiency Builds with Energise, certain Warframe abilities to do with speeds, fire rate, crit, so on. Range and they, as in DE sometimes address this a little, its one of those attributes that they know they have to be careful about, because of how it works in regards to volume and enemies and effectiveness and certain ideas diminishing returns (like say if you compare a 20% increase in Strength vs 20% increase in Range). 

Also, don't get me wrong either, personally, I'd be pretty happy when, and if they dropped a Prime Stretch on us, as soon as next Baro, and reasoning from ones preference is fair and fine and people do this all the time. Just you got to consider that people at DE who make such decisions aren't going to think "Oh, we are so dumb, the answer is so simple, well just make Primed Stretch incompatible with Overextended. That easy, someone call Baro, to let him know what to bring next visit", usually there is a lot more to consider and factor in. 

That being said, they did recently give us an Archgun Primed Multishot Mod, something that they have been a bit weary about in the past, so maybe we get Primed Blunderbuss and Primed Stretch and Primed Streamline soon too. (Other popular Primed Candidates that people tend to want). 

[Voltage]

7 hours ago, L3512 said:

We just got Primed Dual Rounds (game changer for PT

Unfortunately the enemy resistance and armor/health changes offset the release of this mod :(

[L3512]

47 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Unfortunately the enemy resistance and armor/health changes offset the release of this mod :(

Ah sad, I haven't run PT for a while as it's crouching pisses me off and there is no universal loadout feature so I end up taking a gimped Voidring into missions with a PT Velocitus.

[Voltage]

39 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Ah sad, I haven't run PT for a while as it's crouching pisses me off and there is no universal loadout feature so I end up taking a gimped Voidring into missions with a PT Velocitus.

The only reason this happened is because when Archguns got buffed they added an Archgun Damage Reduction to compensate. DE just has to remove that and it'd be fine.

I don't really run myself anymore (as the rewards just don't do it for me), but I asked someone knowledgeable in the math/speedrunning about it.

Edited July 7 by Voltage

[L3512]

22 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The only reason this happened is because when Archguns got buffed they added an Archgun Damage Reduction to compensate. DE just has to remove that and it'd be fine.

I don't really run myself anymore (as the rewards just don't do it for me), but I asked someone knowledgeable in the math/speedrunning about it.

Yes I remember the damage reduction thing they did a while ago, also the Velocitus projectile bug happened and that was ass. I don't really enjoy PT enough to run it anymore even for NW.

[KIREEK]

I'll always agree with anyone wanting more range mods.

[SneakyErvin]

Why not just make a Primed Stretch that also makes it so you cant benefit from more range when it is equipped? We have the mechanics in the game with the latest semi-auto mods that allow no fire rate modifications, they can surely tweak that and add it to a Primed Stretch that simply gives +90% range.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb KIREEK:

I'll always agree with anyone wanting more range mods.

There is no other way. Then maybe many builds will finally be playable. Something like harrow support as was apparently planned.

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

There is no other way. Then maybe many builds will finally be playable. Something like harrow support as was apparently planned.

Why waste a mod slot on range even if the range was a primed mod? His most important support is already unaffected by range modding since they are already covering affinity range as baseline. Thurible is terrible in the version of WF we play now, where energy is in abundance for practically everyone.

[(PSN)Unstar]

There are already so many avenues of power creep in this game.  I personally do not want another.  Especially because range is a stat that's impact is often multiplicative rather than additive.

[Hexerin]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

There are already so many avenues of power creep in this game.  I personally do not want another.  Especially because range is a stat that's impact is often multiplicative rather than additive.

Salivates at the thought of more range on Gyre's Rotorswell.

[GEN-Son_17]

12 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

I mean the obvious solution to adding more range mods without overdoing range is to have a range cap.

Efficiency has a cap. Who's gonna be mad if DE adds more range mod options but just doesn't allow us to have more range than the current max?

True but, considering how much care they would have to take when selecting combos or features to go with range, I don't think it's worth the effort. At the most, I would limit the new mods to not be useable alongside stretch and, at the least, only add defensive or evasive side grades to it, like elemental protection. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb SneakyErvin:

Why waste a mod slot on range even if the range was a primed mod? His most important support is already unaffected by range modding since they are already covering affinity range as baseline. Thurible is terrible in the version of WF we play now, where energy is in abundance for practically everyone.

Not everyone runs with a leg4 account or pimped gear. Beginners in particular don't have maxed arcanes or hardly any shards etc., which we see more than enough of in the screenshots here in the forum. And these players in particular often camp. I see that in the lfg channel.

[FiveN9ne]

22 hours ago, trst said:

Primed mods were a mistake. What we needed were more Corrupted mods instead.

Though regarding P.Stretch specifically I wouldn't go holding out too much hope for ever seeing it. DE is already reluctant to give us more Primed mods, especially more good ones, and one of the most impactful stat is going to be the last one DE ever wants to make.

This was my thought as well. Some different combos like +range -dur, +eff -str, +dur -eff, +str -dur etc etc. Those would be fun to play around with. The only problem would be stacking 2 of the same bonus mods but easily solvable by making them not equippable at the same time. 

[insanitybit]

22 hours ago, C11H22O1 said:

I would say range is the strongest stat and one we definitely don't need more of, we already have plenty

But the approach I've suggested does not increase the maximum range that a frame can have.

[insanitybit]

20 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

What would the point of a primed stretch be that is incompatible with overextended?  You're asking for a full capacity primed mod, that only gives you a 15% range increase.  The difference between 175%/190% and 145%/160% is not really significant.

The point would be to allow for builds that benefit from range to get a bump in range that can't compete with a corrupted mod if your build needs *maximum* range.

 

16 hours ago, TsukuyomiNoGeki said:

But he's right. 15% is negligible. Xaku might gain one extra gun and that's about it.

 

If you want more range use Overextended. The goal is to give a small bump, not a major one.

 

19 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

What ability is 160% a huge boost in gameplay over 145%?  That's one mod.  Thermal Sunder goes from a 34.8m diameter to a 38.4m diameter with this proposal.  That's not really a game changer.  If you're using two mods(stretch/reach vs primed stretch/reach), then its 42m diameter vs 45.6m diameter.  I bet you wouldn't even notice that playing, so I guess we'll have to disagree.

No one is suggesting it be a game changer though? The whole point is exactly that - to go from 34.8m to 38.4m if you don't want to maximize strength. You would go from 951sqm to 1157sqm in your example. I mean, you could make this argument about a *lot* of things, like why have r10 mods instead of r8, it's only like 10% bump or whatever. The point is that if your build is running Stretch or Stretch + Augur Reach you get a bump in range by using Primed Stretch. That's it. It's explicitly not intended to be a game changer because if you wanted a game changer you should have to make some kind of sacrifice via a corrupted mod. If you want to say "20% is better" okay, my first thought was actually a 70% Primed Reach but I decided that that may be too high. I should have been clearer in my first post, clearly. I'll see about updating it with more of the thought process behind this.

Edited July 7 by insanitybit

[Lord_Drod]

25 minutes ago, insanitybit said:

The point would be to allow for builds that benefit from range to get a bump in range that can't compete with a corrupted mod if your build needs *maximum* range.

 

If you want more range use Overextended. The goal is to give a small bump, not a major one.

 

No one is suggesting it be a game changer though? The whole point is exactly that - to go from 34.8m to 38.4m if you don't want to maximize strength. You would go from 951sqm to 1157sqm in your example. I mean, you could make this argument about a *lot* of things, like why have r10 mods instead of r8, it's only like 10% bump or whatever. The point is that if your build is running Stretch or Stretch + Augur Reach you get a bump in range by using Primed Stretch. That's it. It's explicitly not intended to be a game changer because if you wanted a game changer you should have to make some kind of sacrifice via a corrupted mod. If you want to say "20% is better" okay, my first thought was actually a 70% Primed Reach but I decided that that may be too high. I should have been clearer in my first post, clearly. I'll see about updating it with more of the thought process behind this.

It's a primed mod, so it should not be 15% increase.  It should be like 83%.  And it should stack with overextended, if it were to release.  15% isn't worth the endo, even though I'm loaded on it, that small increase isn't worth it.  To compare to continuity, that's like suggesting primed continuity would be at 34.5%.  I don't really have an opinion on whether an 83% primed stretch mod should or shouldn't be released.  Range gets often doubled in fissure buffs.

[C11H22O1]

44 minutes ago, insanitybit said:

But the approach I've suggested does not increase the maximum range that a frame can have.

Yes I read your suggestion but it wouldn't make any sense for it to work that way, and even if it did it would be pointless.

The increase is so low that it would not even be worth adding to the game, it wouldn't change a build that much besides adding more capacity.

And if you make it too strong it would make running overextended pointless since primed stretch doesn't have the negative, it's just an idea that isn't necessary at all

[insanitybit]

1 hour ago, Lord_Drod said:

It's a primed mod, so it should not be 15% increase.  It should be like 83%.  And it should stack with overextended, if it were to release.  15% isn't worth the endo, even though I'm loaded on it, that small increase isn't worth it.  To compare to continuity, that's like suggesting primed continuity would be at 34.5%.  I don't really have an opinion on whether an 83% primed stretch mod should or shouldn't be released.  Range gets often doubled in fissure buffs.

You can make this argument about r9 vs r10 mods. The benefits are almost always extremely small and yet the end cost doubles. As I said elsewhere, 15% is just small bump, if someone wants to say "20%" and justify it, or "X%" and justify it, they can do so.

1 hour ago, C11H22O1 said:

Yes I read your suggestion but it wouldn't make any sense for it to work that way, and even if it did it would be pointless.

The increase is so low that it would not even be worth adding to the game, it wouldn't change a build that much besides adding more capacity.

And if you make it too strong it would make running overextended pointless since primed stretch doesn't have the negative, it's just an idea that isn't necessary at all

I think you're saying that it is either so little that it isn't worth it or so large that it makes Overextended pointless. I only agree with the second part. I have lots of Endo and there are frames where I would take the extra range but I don't want to run Overextended. You say "it wouldn't be worth adding to the game" but that seems to imply that adding it to the game has a cost - what is that cost? Presumably it's some amount of developer time, am I missing something else? Players who do not want to spend the Endo don't have to, players who want it can, so I see no meaningful costs other than the development time.

As for the development time, I don't have access to the WF codebase but this frankly does not sound that hard to implement and I don't buy that it's a high enough cost so as to not be "worth it".

If it's that players won't use it, I reject that entirely. You could say that r10 mods are not worth it because they barely add value over r8 or r9 mods in so many cases and yet they cost exponentially more. You could say that about Primed Faction mods, or Faction Mods in general, which have a cost of having to switch them out to benefit from them, and yet players use them and expend the Endo on them to min-max.

To say that it "isn't necessary at all" is sort of obvious. :The game exists today without it, so it is clearly not necessary. And yet I think the game should have it.

The justification is simple - some builds benefit from range enough to justify stretch or possible stretch + reach, but not sacrifice strength. Those builds would benefit from the increase in range (200 square meters using the example you posted for thermal sunder) and so it would make those builds better without causing problems where max range builds are buffed too much. Any build that falls within that category (likes range, does not strictly optimize for range at all other costs) will get a little bonus at the cost of some Endo/ whatever it takes to acquire the mod.

That seems worth it to me.

[PollexMessier]

9 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

True but, considering how much care they would have to take when selecting combos or features to go with range, I don't think it's worth the effort. At the most, I would limit the new mods to not be useable alongside stretch and, at the least, only add defensive or evasive side grades to it, like elemental protection. 

I really don't like when DE uses that as a sollution to these sorts of issues tho cus it creates a ton of frustrating inconsistencies with what you can and can't mod together and it just makes modding really frustrating.

"These two mods with the same stat can be used together, but these other two can't. Why? Because I said so!" is stupid and needlessly confusing.

I understand why we need it sometimes. But it should be avoided whenever possible. A range cap just makes sense and gives DE the freedom to make whatever range mods they want without concern for planetary nukes or needing to tiptoe around the ifs ands or buts of the stupid "these two mods can't be slotted together" mechanic.

[Xzorn]

Weird. I always found Corrupted mods to be the original offenders.

They're what allowed Nyx, Loki and Excal to get 50m CC or Volt to get a 45s Shield without consequence. It's true frames are designed differently since then because of those mods but even now many of my frames use the typical trio Narrow Minded, Overextended and Blind Range. Point fer point value it's just better.

Primed mods started out as a goofy way of fixing lack luster mods like Fury, Primed Vigor, Continuity, Fast Hands. They could have fixed these mods but in typical DE fashion make a new things to invest time into instead of fixing the original flaw. Now they're just power creep. I can't believe I'm saying this as a long term min/max player but I don't see much of a game design benefit for either. Corrupted mods are more interesting for sure but no less problematic.

Esp with current capacity limit problems.

[Xaero]

On 2024-07-07 at 4:19 AM, Venus-Venera said:

do that. Just don't force your victim mentality on anyone and finally respect other genders too. 👎

I'll assume your reply was meant for another poster in another topic and you've just misclicked.

[PrideB4TheFall]

On 2024-07-06 at 4:01 PM, quxier said:

It would be probably some Fancy Overextended because IMHO, making P.Stretch incompatible with Overxtended may confuse player. Why Stretch can coexist with Overextended but not Primed version?

I've thought about a primed stretch. Just make primed stretch and overextended mutually exclusive, and primed stretch a little less effective than overextended. They've done this before with Critical Delay.

Edited July 8 by PrideB4TheFall

[Lord_Drod]

11 hours ago, insanitybit said:

12 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

It's a primed mod, so it should not be 15% increase.  It should be like 83%.  And it should stack with overextended, if it were to release.  15% isn't worth the endo, even though I'm loaded on it, that small increase isn't worth it.  To compare to continuity, that's like suggesting primed continuity would be at 34.5%.  I don't really have an opinion on whether an 83% primed stretch mod should or shouldn't be released.  Range gets often doubled in fissure buffs.

You can make this argument about r9 vs r10 mods. The benefits are almost always extremely small and yet the end cost doubles. As I said elsewhere, 15% is just small bump, if someone wants to say "20%" and justify it, or "X%" and justify it, they can do so.

I don't really think that's the same thing.  Most primed mods if not all do provide a significant increase over their counterparts even if they aren't always useful.  They all have similar increases as well.  

You always max the mods eventually because you can.  What am I supposed to do with 1.5m endo and hundreds of statues in excess?  That isn't a reason for a primed mod to provide a slight boost.

And its odd you're talking about a mod not being worth it to rank up because it's only a slight increase, but would like a maxed primed mod to be released like that.  So why bother even ranking it up?  You have to go full max endo, just to get an increase that other primed mods are getting from rank 8 to 10 or whatever.

Primed stretched is never coming I can tell you that, but if it does it better be 82.5% and the argument for that is every other primed mod that is 30 base, is at 55.  Every other elemental mod that is 90% base is 165% primed.  Even primed dual rounds, loot radar, login attack speed, reload speed, ammo stock both values from pack leader, etc.  They are all balanced at 1.83x.

I could get behind Archon Stretch being buffed to +60% though because a slight trickle of energy on electricity ability damage isn't really worth the extra capacity in most cases.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

Not everyone runs with a leg4 account or pimped gear. Beginners in particular don't have maxed arcanes or hardly any shards etc., which we see more than enough of in the screenshots here in the forum. And these players in particular often camp. I see that in the lfg channel.

What on earth does that have to do with any of what I said or with how Harrow practically has zero need for range as a stat? That lower players might need the energy? There are several better options for that if you play a Harrow support to grant those players energy. And if you are a lower progressed player playing Harrow, wasting a mod slot for range is even more wasteful, since you dont need range to sustain yourself through the skill or friends within 20m.