Hosting Causes Drastic Increase Of Enemy Accuracy - Please Read, De

[NyxCrab]

Merged similar threads.

 

 

This thread has a substantial amount of reports claiming the above, which I don't doubt likely point to an issue, but I am eager to see if anyone has data or footage to reflect the claims with 100% verification. That might be tough to do which might explain the lack of comparison footage thus far... 

 

I guess the simplest request would be to determine the most reliable way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the issue is 100% present. I have a few methods that I'll try (with the help of some Tenno), but open to the testing methods of others.

I can confirm that the enemy accuracy seems to be higher when attacking the host as opposed to when you're a client. If my recording program wants to work I could go record the evidence. Windows 10 is kinda of a b!tch  when it comes to my recording program :P

[CedarDpg]

Merged similar threads.

 

 

This thread has a substantial amount of reports claiming the above, which I don't doubt likely point to an issue, but I am eager to see if anyone has data or footage to reflect the claims with 100% verification. That might be tough to do which might explain the lack of comparison footage thus far... 

 

I guess the simplest request would be to determine the most reliable way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the issue is 100% present. I have a few methods that I'll try (with the help of some Tenno), but open to the testing methods of others.

 

If you can get someone to host with a really bad network connection...or perhaps have their network bandwidth throttled for testing and/or run a Warframe with a lowered application priority (below normal/low) to simulate a weak computer...especially if it's so laggy that every mob and other player appear to be running in place for seconds at a time before teleporting to a new location...you can basically run around and shoot/melee everything with relative impunity. Only time you'd take damage is if you stand still for "long" periods of time.

[Tyrian3k]

Merged similar threads.

 

 

This thread has a substantial amount of reports claiming the above, which I don't doubt likely point to an issue, but I am eager to see if anyone has data or footage to reflect the claims with 100% verification. That might be tough to do which might explain the lack of comparison footage thus far... 

 

I guess the simplest request would be to determine the most reliable way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the issue is 100% present. I have a few methods that I'll try (with the help of some Tenno), but open to the testing methods of others.

 

If you strafe sideways and face yor attacker while being a client, you won't get hit by any non-homing attacks. If you're the host, enemies still hit you.

 

My suspicion is that enemies shoot at the position where the host sees you, but hits are generated by shots at the position where the client sees themself, meaning that the aim of enemies is affected by the latency between host and client. They basically always aim a bit behind you.

[Tails-san]

As others have said, this is VERY noticeable with high latency. In such conditions, often also involving enemies teleporting and loot not picking up reliably, the enemies will be almost entirely incapable of hitting you provided you are in motion.

[taiiat]

The whole host/client thing might be part of it. If you're not hosting, then you're playing easy-mode; if you're hosting or soloing, then you're experiencing the enemy accuracy as it's intended to be.

This thread has a substantial amount of reports claiming the above, which I don't doubt likely point to an issue, but I am eager to see if anyone has data or footage to reflect the claims with 100% verification. That might be tough to do which might explain the lack of comparison footage thus far... 

 

I guess the simplest request would be to determine the most reliable way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the issue is 100% present. I have a few methods that I'll try (with the help of some Tenno), but open to the testing methods of others.

this is certainly a thing. 

inhouse testing i imagine unless specifically tested for with extra bounces added to packets, Host and Client being on the same LAN as each other would result in nominal if any change.

 

however, for the majority of people, this is definitely something that happens.

and it's not the end of the world, i don't think.

as far as i'm concerned, a straightforward 'solution' to not have Players drawing straws for whoever is going to Host, is to introduce 'fakelag' to the Host's own location.

 

something small like 20ms may be enough, and shouldn't impact match quality at that point, the Host shouldn't be warping around with a delay that short.

but something as small as that should make large steps forward to making it consistent for Clients and the Host.

 

 

here's an example of how Source handles this.

it's not the exact solution we want, we don't want to add Latency to network traffic. but it also applies to the Server updates for itself, which is the part we're looking for here.

 

[Kthal]

It would be nice to get this sorted.

 

Recently, I had one game of AW Interception where I got hit twice in the first round. Host migration occurred at the end of the round, and I was the next host (evidenced by seeing the lightning links between capturing enemies and points). The moment I was host, I started taking heavy damage the moment I was near anything.

 

In a single match, the difference between being client and host was painful. (That said, the enemies pre-host migration were woefully inaccurate, and could have had a little buff.)

[dadaddadada]

I will try and provide gifs of the issue.

I noticed this experience disparity immediately after starting playing warframe, 1300 hours ago. But this isn't really an issue which gets easily fixed as is dependent on latency, which you can't simply "fix" with a patch or anything like that. Probably improved movement prediction algorithms for clients would help?

[Larsurus]

Merged similar threads.

 

 

This thread has a substantial amount of reports claiming the above, which I don't doubt likely point to an issue, but I am eager to see if anyone has data or footage to reflect the claims with 100% verification. That might be tough to do which might explain the lack of comparison footage thus far... 

 

I guess the simplest request would be to determine the most reliable way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the issue is 100% present. I have a few methods that I'll try (with the help of some Tenno), but open to the testing methods of others.

 

Don't you have a way to test this within your dev tools? Set up a room, line up a bunch of Nullifiers, Elite Crewmen or random Grineer, have a host/client run through it with equal set up frames and see who gets the furthest. Also Elite Crewmen have 100% accuracy when hosting, vs their shaky handed cousins that you face when you are the client.

 

The latest tac-alert was a perfect example of "sucks to be host".

[(PSN)renosis]

Just like to comment that this has been a problem on PS4 since at least Update 15. I have posted threads about it too, not much activity there in the PS4 bugs and feedback section. I often play with someone who lives in Australia and I live in the states. He doesn't have the best connection. When he hosts, I never take damage, even using the squishiest frames in T4 void missions, so long as I keep moving. If I host, I die rather easily. 

 

But, this problem is not just for people who are geographically far apart (read: lots of hops and latency), it also happens on normal and geographically close connections, just not as pronounced. The difference is still noticeable to varying degrees between Host and Client.

[Llyssa]

Merged similar threads.

 

 

This thread has a substantial amount of reports claiming the above, which I don't doubt likely point to an issue, but I am eager to see if anyone has data or footage to reflect the claims with 100% verification. That might be tough to do which might explain the lack of comparison footage thus far... 

 

I guess the simplest request would be to determine the most reliable way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the issue is 100% present. I have a few methods that I'll try (with the help of some Tenno), but open to the testing methods of others.

Oh, it's quite easy to prove. Find someone outside of your region(like, say, algeria or russia). You should have HORRIBLE lag, and a really lousy connection. Then play.

 

The game does not lag compensate properly, so the more lag you have, the less accurate the enemies are at determining your location. If the lag is bad enough, you can actually stealth kill enemies that were shooting at you a moment ago, as the game will fail to recognize that they still know where you are.

 

Simply put, the more latency you have, the less likely you are to be sensed or shot at properly. Seeing as the host always has 0 latency, they always have the highest probability of being hit.

 

If you have a decent connection and play with people from your area, this means nothing, as the difference is tiny/minute. However, if you have a bad connection or play with players from quite far away, the difference between hosting and clienting is astounding.

 

There is some difference, I suppose based on the quality of the host's computer, on how badly lag will affect enemy responses, but in general, latency creates an easier game experience for it. The trade off, of course, is having to suffer lag.

 

Atm, this is useful because if you're a bad player, you can take advantage of latency to ease your game experience, and if you're a good player, you can take advantage of latency to lower the quality requirements of your team mates(even the most total n00b of n00bs can do good when the game allows them to stealth kill everything).

 

Personally, I find this makes solo ridiculously more difficult than playing with a squad, but also allows arbitrary team improvements--if player X is really awful, just changing the host alters the latency values, thus easing up play for those who need it.

 

EDIT: I sort of thought that was intended, since it would be unfair to have players get "aimbotted" while also lagging. If this leads to a general decrease of aimbottiness with a more regularized gameplay, I guess that's okay, but I'm a tad worried you'll end up "fixing" it and make it so that we can't let the bad players look good by hosting for them.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Llyssa

[[DE]Rebecca]

In any case this has spawned some in-depth IRL discussion amongst the team so we await further results!

[Yaerion]

I concur with the title of this thread; fact noticed several times. I suppose the phenomenon is more and more noticeable the more latency the clients have.

 

I remember being several times in a room and thinking "for Lotus' sake, we're 4 in there, i have silent weapons and I'm not exposing myself a lot... STOP HARASSING ME".

 

Maybe rather than "decreasing" the enemy accuracy, a mechanics where the enemies "drop" their fire and seek another target would be a better solution? (the 'Drop'n'Seek' effect should be triggered by Tenno-roll or Tenno-out-of-sight).

 

So, the behavior:

If {Tenno-roll} or {Tenno-out-of-sight}

Then {Seek-an-easier(aka: !immediate)-target}

If {Victim: found}

Then {burn-her/his-as5}

If {All-Tenno= 'Skom', 'Bad Client', 'Tender Flesh';}

Then {Initiate: reload-of-my-weapon (!even-if-my-loader-isn't-empty);

or if (loader:full / loader:N/A)

Initiate: <all simple units> get (closer-to-Eximus-to-get-the-buff)}

 

So {Tenno-can-breath-and-RIP-me-after-that}

 

/End

/Thanks

 

:D

 

Wait. Where are my neural sensors?

Hm... Did I ever get even one?

I really need a Cephalon of my own for these questions...

[bl4ckhunter]

Merged similar threads.

 

 

This thread has a substantial amount of reports claiming the above, which I don't doubt likely point to an issue, but I am eager to see if anyone has data or footage to reflect the claims with 100% verification. That might be tough to do which might explain the lack of comparison footage thus far... 

 

I guess the simplest request would be to determine the most reliable way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the issue is 100% present. I have a few methods that I'll try (with the help of some Tenno), but open to the testing methods of others.

the ginner can hit you while you're using abilities like charge and tailwind with maxed duration perfectly if that's the intended grinneer accuracy then  we've got some problem here, besides  the accuracy debuff on turbolence doesn't seem to work reliably if at all while hosting, that said the best solution would actually be to remove hitscan bullets from the game and replace them with very fast projectiles at least for enemy hitscan weapons so that we can actually try to dodge them or something, also the host gets all the aggro for some obscure reason and abilities like HoM and decoy are way less effective

[Vargras]

There was a similar issue in Mass Effect 3's multiplayer -- almost identical, really. Coincidentally, it also used the same hosting system as Warframe (I.E. one player "hosts" and the others play off their connection).

 

Some hosts would intentionally cause lag, as it would cause enemies to have horrendous accuracy on their end, with the consequence of giving everyone else a horrible gameplay experience.

[Llyssa]

There was a similar issue in Mass Effect 3's multiplayer -- almost identical, really. Coincidentally, it also used the same hosting system as Warframe (I.E. one player "hosts" and the others play off their connection).

 

Some hosts would intentionally cause lag, as it would cause enemies to have horrendous accuracy on their end, with the consequence of giving everyone else a horrible gameplay experience.

That's almost exactly the opposite of what happens here.

[jmulet4297]

It is true that accuracy is very high, i usually play solo on warframe, its pretty uncommon for me to go on public, only times i play with others is if someone in clan comes on and they want to play or something. When i play after about enemies over level 5, there accuracy is close to perfect. Since i have played solo for more than a year, i have not really noticed this till it was told on the forums. IDK it this is true or not but it may need a look at. Grineer lancers with that machine gun hits me every shot if im out on the open. It is kindof crazy that a partially inacurate wep with high recoil hits me with eat shot. May need a look at indead

[Snydrex]

I remember DE implementing "dynamic enemy accuracy" that changed how accurate enemies were depending on what you were doing in a previous update.

 

Based on my personal experience, it was either too insignificant of a jump to be significant, or did not work.

[dadaddadada]

As promised, here are some footage gifs (those are pretty big, you'll need to let them load for a while if you have poor internet)

 

Solo (or host):

 

Client (even with very low latency, enemies still aim to a spot slightly behind you, thus, always missing):

Edited January 26, 2015 by dadaddadada

[Thundervision]

There was a similar issue in Mass Effect 3's multiplayer -- almost identical, really. Coincidentally, it also used the same hosting system as Warframe (I.E. one player "hosts" and the others play off their connection).

Some hosts would intentionally cause lag, as it would cause enemies to have horrendous accuracy on their end, with the consequence of giving everyone else a horrible gameplay experience.

In ME3MP enemy accuracy was affected by host FPS (http://forum.bioware.com/topic/444037-how-frame-rate-affects-game-difficulty-update-13032013).

10 fps = they're blind;

30 fps = they can hit you;

60+ fps = they have 100% accuracy & instant reaction

In fact, most of the powers in ME3MP doesn't work off-host, meh...

 

/offtopic

 

edit:

As promised, here is some footage gifs (they are pretty big, you'll need to let them load for a while if you have poor internet)

Yes, that's it!

I've noticed it, too.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Spectre-Agent

[Mesyra]

so I'm not the only one who noticed this. awesome. 

[Rydian]

Merged similar threads.

 

 

This thread has a substantial amount of reports claiming the above, which I don't doubt likely point to an issue, but I am eager to see if anyone has data or footage to reflect the claims with 100% verification. That might be tough to do which might explain the lack of comparison footage thus far... 

 

I guess the simplest request would be to determine the most reliable way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the issue is 100% present. I have a few methods that I'll try (with the help of some Tenno), but open to the testing methods of others.

The difference is easiest to see with the Corpus Elite Crewman, their lasers show the targeting/attack mechanics clearly unlike most enemies.

 

Hosting / Solo

The Elite Crewman keeps the laser on me the whole time despite me running and rolling around.

 

 

Client

I can just walk and he can't manage to keep his aim at me.

[SlyBoots]

Oh, it's quite easy to prove. Find someone outside of your region(like, say, algeria or russia). You should have HORRIBLE lag, and a really lousy connection. Then play.

 

The game does not lag compensate properly, so the more lag you have, the less accurate the enemies are at determining your location. If the lag is bad enough, you can actually stealth kill enemies that were shooting at you a moment ago, as the game will fail to recognize that they still know where you are.

 

Simply put, the more latency you have, the less likely you are to be sensed or shot at properly. Seeing as the host always has 0 latency, they always have the highest probability of being hit.

 

If you have a decent connection and play with people from your area, this means nothing, as the difference is tiny/minute. However, if you have a bad connection or play with players from quite far away, the difference between hosting and clienting is astounding.

 

There is some difference, I suppose based on the quality of the host's computer, on how badly lag will affect enemy responses, but in general, latency creates an easier game experience for it. The trade off, of course, is having to suffer lag.

 

Atm, this is useful because if you're a bad player, you can take advantage of latency to ease your game experience, and if you're a good player, you can take advantage of latency to lower the quality requirements of your team mates(even the most total n00b of n00bs can do good when the game allows them to stealth kill everything).

 

Personally, I find this makes solo ridiculously more difficult than playing with a squad, but also allows arbitrary team improvements--if player X is really awful, just changing the host alters the latency values, thus easing up play for those who need it.

 

EDIT: I sort of thought that was intended, since it would be unfair to have players get "aimbotted" while also lagging. If this leads to a general decrease of aimbottiness with a more regularized gameplay, I guess that's okay, but I'm a tad worried you'll end up "fixing" it and make it so that we can't let the bad players look good by hosting for them.

 

alright, hold your horses champ, hold it right there. that's absolutely not true that you need people from the other end of the world with huge lag for this to be a thing. this can be experienced with very good hosts that are "from your area" however far you define "your area"... though if all DE ever did was test in LAN environment... then yeah... if anywhere that's exactly where you won't notice. point is, warframe defines "your area" as europe/northern america etc so that's what needs to be taken into account.

 

you will note that someone provided an example of another game engine implementing fake lag for the host - and that's for games with a lot less AI/pathing, the amount of AI/pathing warframe has is just likely to amplify the difference between host and client even more compared to those... also the example gifs, consensus seems to be that it happens on good hosts.

Edited January 26, 2015 by SlyBoots

[Quizel]

Anyone remember when survival first came out? sometimes lag was horrendous with 1,000 and 1,000 of unused ammo drops, countless mobs, poorer optimization in general, but was way easier to reach high scores cuz you were never hit :D.

 

Nice post btw Rydian (guy above)

 

Its an issue that can't be solved as long as lag exist or some sort of "host" sharing for some things which just gets weird and not even sure if possible. taiiat suggestion could help normalize the difference between host and clients and actual enemy accuracy could be re-tuned for proper experience.

 

edit: suppose this host sharing already exist maybe with things like the penta fix?

Edited January 26, 2015 by Quizel

[Noabettiet]

In any case this has spawned some in-depth IRL discussion amongst the team so we await further results!

Please keep us updated :D .. this is fantastic.

[Llyssa]

alright, hold your horses champ, hold it right there. that's absolutely not true that you need people from the other end of the world with huge lag for this to be a thing. this can be experienced with very good hosts that are "from your area" however far you define "your area"... though if all DE ever did was test in LAN environment... then yeah... if anywhere that's exactly where you won't notice. point is, warframe defines "your area" as europe/northern america etc so that's what needs to be taken into account.

 

you will note that someone provided an example of another game engine implementing fake lag for the host - and that's for games with a lot less AI/pathing, the amount of AI/pathing warframe has is just likely to amplify the difference between host and client even more compared to those... also the example gifs, consensus seems to be that it happens on good hosts.

...if you want DE to be able to see something, why would you not want them to see the most stark of all possible differences--latency from across the globe allowing almost guaranteed stealth kills?

 

Further, I would like to assure you that if your bestie from next door is playing with you, that's not going to cause enough latency to be a problem, nor will, realistically, someone from your town/village/city/county... and in most cases state/parrish.... So that means that despite the DE crew playing together from home, they have never, EVER seen this.

 

Why on earth you'd take arms against that. People in your region could be in your area, or have a decent connection to you, so there's no way to guarantee they'd demonstrate the issue. Get real.

 

The problem exists, and they should see it for themselves, and your trolling is pointless. Don't distract from the issue.