DE Want's to remove mandatory mods...what about other mandatory things?

[Hixlysss]

We all know DE want's to remove mandatory mods, or at least give them some kind of drawback for the benefit they provide. So...what about a couple of the other 'mandatory' items, namely the potatoes....anyone else realized just how mandatory these items are? A reddit post I saw kinda helps get the point across https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/51lvzk/its_really_sad_that_customisation_for_so_many/ which brings up a couple questions...without a catalyst and forma you cannot put more than a couple mods on a weapon or frame. This leads me to believe that you aren't meant to max out the mods you put on the weapon or frame, which begs the question...Why? I mean why have mods get so high in cost, there are already enough options for mods to put on weapons, why make it harder on new players to mod their weapons?

Why make catalysts, reactors, and forma mandatory? Now I know forma is farmable so that's not much of an issue. How ever catalysts and reactors are a very rare item outside of buying them. You either wait around for an alert or invasion to offer it as a reward, which is rare at best, or you can try your luck at the sorties...or wait around for a dev stream. Suffice to say there are plenty of ways to get catalysts and reactors in game, how ever the fact remains they shouldn't be as mandatory as they currently are.

Now hooopefully when DE swoops in and does the changes to weapons, the whole gaining stats from levels and the removal/nerfing of the 'mandatory' mods will address this particular issue. And regretfully I have...no ideas on how to possibly fix this without addressing the mandatory mod issue. So the whole discussion from this point would be possible idea's from the community on how they feel about the necessity of potatoes and any idea's y'all have to make potatoes less mandatory, and please no "make the more common" suggestions.

[Jamescell]

They may be mandatory, but they don't limit build variety- they simply render untreated weapons useless. There's not anything players can replace potatoes with for a different effect unlike mods.

Potatoes are a platinum sink for players that have less restraint, but if you've played the game for a reasonable amount of time and use your potatoes wisely they really aren't much of a problem.

Sure, it means that you can't do sorties with every weapon you're trying to max for mastery, but that's just part of the privilege of experience whales pay for.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Jamescell

[Hypernaut1]

They're not mandatory.

[DeMonkey]

Catalysts/Forma etc don't take up room, they do nothing but upgrade the weapon. It's like making your +9 Halberd into a +10 Halberd in Dark Souls. It's progression through an upgrade chain.

Slapping a maxed serration onto every rifle isn't progression, it's a mandatory mod that could be incorporated into the weapon leveling system to make room for another mod.

[peggisan]

With several forma, even an unpotatoed weapon can perform well enough in starchart, which is where majority of the content is now. 

[ensignvidiot]

6 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

They're not mandatory.

Please play sortie/nightmaretrials/void without the following and tell me how enjoyable the experience was. I won't even judge you if you pick a frame that is tailor-made for the job:

 

Serration

Hornet strike 

(Primed) point blank

(Primed) pressure point

A multishot mod

Any elemental mods

 

And for warframes

Any combination of vigor/vitality/redirection/steel fiber 

Any combination of Intensify/Stretch/Continuity/Flow/Streamline 

An Aura

 

 

Bonus points. Use all of the above, maxed out, without Forma or Potatoes

Edited September 8, 2016 by ensignvidiot

[Xaero]

Well if we don't have mandatory mods, our weapons will be useful without any mods, right? Isn't that what you're asking for?

[Sixty5]

Catalysts and the like are a revenue stream for DE, they won't go anywhere 

As far as mandatory mods go, removing them won't matter. There will always be an optimal setup and therefore mandatory mods. 

Damage based on weapon rank is a stupid idea. You hand basically everyone a maxed serration for free, destroying early game scaling and at the same time make levelling weapons more of a pain. 

[Ginyama]

Geoff actually tried removing mandatory mods (ex. Damage mods). Result was the whole game crashed. Meaning the whole damage system will go to shiz once they remove that, since it has been in the game for almost 3 years now. So for now, we'll not expect them removing those soon.. Unless they will find a way of preventing it in crashing. For Damage 3.0. I'm sure of it.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Ginyama

[_Vortus_]

Bit of misinformation here.   You can fit all kinds of mods on a frame/weapon without reactors, catalysts, and forma.   just not maxed ones.   How well it would work, dunno, will see.   I'll experiment with it just for the hell of it over the next day or so.

[DrBorris]

What? Those things have NOTHING in common. The intention in removing "mandatory mods" is to allow for there to actually be build diversity with weapons. Modding was never intended to be something where everyone uses the same build, but it is pretty darn close to that because damage mods so far outshine everything else. 

Potatoes on the other hand are a means of progression/money. Potatoes are pretty much just a way to allow for DE to make money. Maybe (heavy emphasis on maybe) a Damage 3.0 would make potatoes nonessential by having DPS not increase much, but have extra slots just allow you to further customize the feel of the weapon. 

And as for Forma, these are just a means of progression. They exist to make it so you have to put some effort into your stuff in order to build it exactly how you like. 

 

So the difference is pretty obvious, potatoes and Forma allow for GREATER diversity while "mandatory mods" DECREASE diversity. 

 

Edit: This is like complaining about completing junctions being mandatory to progress through the star chart. Not everything in the game should be optional, that would just remove any point or goal of the game. 

Edited September 8, 2016 by DrBorris

[ensignvidiot]

My personalthought, it will NEVER go away.

 

Potatoes, Exilus  Forma, and Slots will remain as they are to support the game's Freemium Model.

 

Each (maybe arguably not Exilus) are required for efficient access and usability of endgame content. It's really hard to truely max out anything without some combination of those 4 elements. 

 

Yes, they are required for endgame

And No, they will likely never be moved from that spot.

[Kaiser_Suoh]

Mandatory in the Corpus: "every new enemy will have a kind of Nullifier system"

[Ditto132]

Potato is not really mandatory(compulsory), you don't need to put potato in all the weapons you have, just the ones that you enjoyed using and/or use frequently.
If you are using potato on every single weapon that you acquired, it is your problem that you didn't manage your resources well enough.

If I really want to remove mandatory stuff, I would want to remove the need to go out to work to get income to stay alive. Most people in the world need to work to stay alive, why not remove it so that we people can live the way we wanted.

[Wolfdoggie]

I generally don't find a whole lotta use/fun with unpotatoed stuff. Primaries are especially reliant on potatoes since most of the time if I make one that has no polarities by default I can only place 1-2 mods on it because of how many points the mandatory mods like Serattion and Multishot take up. Then I need to forma it 5-6 times to fit all the maxed mods onto it~ I end up just sticking with an old weapon I already fully upgrade and stash the new one.

Mirage is one of the exceptions I can think of. Shes one of the strongest frames in the game because she doesn't require a potato or forma. I slapped what I could on her and that was good enough for what I needed her for. (which was to break the game with stuff like Tonkor and Simulor)

Spoiler

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Wolfdoggie

[Hixlysss]

1 hour ago, _Vortus_ said:

Bit of misinformation here.   You can fit all kinds of mods on a frame/weapon without reactors, catalysts, and forma.   just not maxed ones.   How well it would work, dunno, will see.   I'll experiment with it just for the hell of it over the next day or so.

I actually said you can fit a bunch of mods on weapons/frames without a potatoe, or forma, just that they can't be maxed, just as you say. Which lead me to believe or rather question why mods have such high costs if we can't fit at least most of them on a weapon without a potatoe or forma.

 

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

What? Those things have NOTHING in common. The intention in removing "mandatory mods" is to allow for there to actually be build diversity with weapons. Modding was never intended to be something where everyone uses the same build, but it is pretty darn close to that because damage mods so far outshine everything else. 

Potatoes on the other hand are a means of progression/money. Potatoes are pretty much just a way to allow for DE to make money. Maybe (heavy emphasis on maybe) a Damage 3.0 would make potatoes nonessential by having DPS not increase much, but have extra slots just allow you to further customize the feel of the weapon. 

And as for Forma, these are just a means of progression. They exist to make it so you have to put some effort into your stuff in order to build it exactly how you like. 

 

So the difference is pretty obvious, potatoes and Forma allow for GREATER diversity while "mandatory mods" DECREASE diversity. 

 

Edit: This is like complaining about completing junctions being mandatory to progress through the star chart. Not everything in the game should be optional, that would just remove any point or goal of the game. 

The thing they have in common is they are both mandatory given the current state of the game. Mandatory mods are mandatory because of scaling, Potatoes and forma are mandatory because of mandatory mods, thus there is a relation. If we didn't have the mandatory mods, forma at least might be less mandatory than it currently is.

And yes, I do agree that potatoes and forma allow for greater diversity...the problem is that diversity is again...MANDATORY at the moment. "Oh, want to take your weapon on a sortie? You're going to need serration, split chamber, ect. Oh can't fit those on that weapon? Forma it. Oh it still won't fit? Put a potatoe on it!" Everything at this point requires a potatoe on it just so you can fit mods on them, otherwise you end up with either 3 to 10 different versions of a mod because there is no 'down scaling' mods.

Making the potatoes and having them offer more diversity is completely fine and welcomed, but we should be able to do ANYTHING in the game WITHOUT THEM. Potatoes and forma should ENHANCE the experience not be freaking REQUIRED for it! And if they are required they should be more steadily available, as I currently have little issues with getting forma, it's getting the potatoes which is an annoyance given how needed they are. 

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

DE wants to remove mandatory mods...what about other mandatory things?

The difference is that in Warframe, weapons are built to deal damage. 99.9% of all weapon builds are tooled toward maximizing damage output, and that's it. There are different kinds of damage that one builds for different situations, but that also just comes back to optimizing the numbers.

So when you have a mod that does nothing but straight-up increase the damage of a weapon that is made solely to do damage, 99.9% of builds will use this same Rank 10 mod in a slot on the weapon. Any other mod in that space makes virtually any build less effective than keeping the straight damage mod. And once you have one copy of that mod, that's kind of just it and it will be on everything forever. This leads to a limitation of a player's creative input and its effects on game-affecting output.

Nothing else is strictly mandatory, as everything has the option of building into paths other than damage. You can't really mod a gun to be defensive. Even if some builds and mods aren't optimal (or even sensible) in certain situations (still can't get that darn tank Nova build working...), it's at least an option, a choice the player can make, and it allows for player creativity.

Edited September 8, 2016 by SenorClipClop

[(PSN)watt4hem]

i was able to keep up with an unpotatoed (0 forma too) oberon. It simply makes you stronger, and if you're doing sorties or raids then i'm sure you atleast have some potatoes

[RenownedWheat42]

I have a potato'd Rubico that could not keep up with a partner's no-potato Rubico during the sniper-only sortie today. As far as weapon damage went, he was outclassing me 3:1. Potatoes are nice, VERY nice, but not necessary.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Hixlysss said:

~snip~

Honestly. With this sort of logic I'm surprised you're not questioning the mechanics of the login screen. That's mandatory as well.

Owning a pc/console, that's mandatory. Should we get DE to look into that as well?

What about having a working pair of eyes?

Needing to upgrade your weapon to access higher level content is not a bad thing. Having mods that every single rifle must use to get optimal damage output is bad because you then don't have 8 slots to play with. You have 6. 

[arch111]

We do have mods that are mandatory and mods that require 60 to work. This is not debatable.

The problem with some of these is that some weapons or warframes allow you to play stealthily, use aimglide or Chanelling or rate of fire+punchthrough or status or ammoincrease, or some other way outside of the maxed out meta.

But you really need 10 spots to use it all because it is more about modspace than point-space.

So if we had more room we would have more diversity. And besides that, formaing and levelling are huge credit-sinks for alot of people.

[Extroah]

I would love for them to remove the Mandatory Mods and instead apply those bonuses when Ranking up a Frame. I am so used to using those Mods that i barely, if ever, run Elemental Weapons or Frames without Shield and Health Mods, because they just take away the space i'd need. It's especially harsh on Melee. The Crit-rate, Crit-damage and Melee-damage Mods could be easily applied to the Melee Weapons when on Max Rank, that way we would have 3 more Mod-Slots available to add Elemental Combos, or add another I/P/S Mod, or even Bloodrush for those that can't add it otherwise like me.

[BETAOPTICS]

I do not think the core function represents so much of an issue, rather it is the symptom of scaling that does. Both enemies and your gear scales exponentially with mods, but this would not represent such an issue were it not because the differential in potency of power is massive between unranked and fully ranked " mandatory " mods. If the difference would be 1% per rank, that would not pose an issue but in some instances it is as high as 10% bonus or even more with each level. For a veteran like me that is a non-issue, but for many this is a massive obstacle, too massive.

Edited September 8, 2016 by BETAOPTICS

[marelooke]

3 hours ago, Extroah said:

I would love for them to remove the Mandatory Mods and instead apply those bonuses when Ranking up a Frame. I am so used to using those Mods that i barely, if ever, run Elemental Weapons or Frames without Shield and Health Mods, because they just take away the space i'd need. It's especially harsh on Melee. The Crit-rate, Crit-damage and Melee-damage Mods could be easily applied to the Melee Weapons when on Max Rank, that way we would have 3 more Mod-Slots available to add Elemental Combos, or add another I/P/S Mod, or even Bloodrush for those that can't add it otherwise like me.

Frames don't have mandatory mods, I think they are in a good place. Putting Redirection and Vitality on everything is a choice  you made and many people don't do so. In fact, on some frames some of these mods aren't even wanted.

The main issue is that tying the damage increase from mandatory mods to weapon rank will make Forma-ing more painful once again, certainly for lower MR players (since I'll assume that a MR22 player will start out with a weapon who's damage is scaled to Rank 22 as per the mod capacity). It also removes a big credit sink and progression slower (took me a while to max out my damage mods back in the day), so it would likely have a big impact on the game economy too.

Simply removing them (and/or adding that base damage increase to the weapons themselves) would just free up two mod slots allowing for even more OP builds, which might not be exactly what we (or DE) want either. Maybe reserving some slots for "utility" mods that affect handling but don't increase performance would be nice, but then these need to somehow be useful enough for people to want to use them but not useful enough that everyone will run with the same ones all the time...

[Vyra]

guns and frames are worthless without forma and potatoes.
you can only do lvl 15 maximum....



i tried to kill a lvl 25 eximus infested with a rank 30 gun with no potatoe and no forma and a frame with no potatoe and no forma...i just died.. not enough capacity for anything...

Edited September 8, 2016 by Vyra