Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[StealthyCARNAGE]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

How about a toggle button (live gameplay, not from options) for one to keep seeing the animation & 1 to skip the animation? Ofc those who choose to skip will still stuck in place doing ninjutsu hand gestures spells to keep the skill running (lock in place until they can actually move) but on the brightside:

-No animation

-you can still be invulnerable (covered in black smoke & faded form)

-you can observe the battleground around you

See? I didnt touch FT or other skill AT ALL.............

How about you follow my example?

You kinda missed the point. It's about no being able to play yourself, not about whether you're stuck in a cutscene or outside of it. People still want to be able to actually play, get it? And you didn't address the other side either, because you still end up losing that animation.

In short, you improved basically nothing.

[RX-3DR]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

No reason to use 4, because Ash's 3 was always for high priority targets. 4 was a CC or a (oh sh button). Or if u had a downed ally and u need to kill quickly my ash can do a full BS on.console at the momment in 2 sec flat...thats one animation then i would revive the ally. 

A lot of Warframes suffer from this issue when drawing comparisons on skills with very similar function. Teleport doubles up as a mobility for closing distance or escaping, Blade Storm returns you to your original position and focuses more on speed between multiple targets, can be used to build up your combo counter and always applies an extremely high damage Bleed DoT. Neither of them are useless, you're just refusing to use one or the other simply because you don't see a need to. Just because you're not using both of them doesn't mean that no one does so either.

[Trickster-_-]

Got used to the ash reworked bladestorm as well..

doesnt seem any different in anyway other than the fact that the animation for bladestorm is activate on completing the task of makring enemies one by one via using your mouse to mark them ..

Just makes as bladestorm less effective interms of crowd control cos by the time we bladetsorm our allies wud have killed our marked targets already..

On the other side of rework , the teleport.. is looking good with the small tweak to ash using teleport on objects .. makes him more effective for spy missions ..

May be can use the marking system for shuriken ability as well to make the shurikens become mulitple clones of itself and hit all the targeted enemies.. while in the targeting ability of bladestorm..

Bladestrom could be simpliefied by just making clones appear and kill marked enemies instead of ash immersing himself in the animation of bladestorm

although that mite ruin the whole point about bladestorm being so cool because of its animation and different camera angles a player gets to watch ash do his killing..

But OVERALL - ash rework is pretty well balanced in my opinion , definitely needs some getting used to.. but when we heard that ash bladestorm is getting rework .. we were expecting a complete make over rather than just adding a condition to doin the same old bladestorm animation..

Im mostly a loki ash and ivara user for stealth misisons .. i definitley like the teleport chancges, the bladestorm kills which erase all traces of the enemy body , and the new koga delux skin totally rocks..

Could use some love for loki teleport as well.. wud be much better to freely teleport where i want rather than using a loud decoy to attract enemies and raise the alarms in a stealth mission situation.. for loki teleport atleast make it so that he can teleport to anywhere he points on the map (range mod dependant) and also can teleport thru transparent objects like certain glass barriers which have enemies on the other side of the glass obstacle..  (hmm the teleportation through transparent objects might seem too buff and op for loki.. mmm cancel that ) but the free teleport to anywhere he points to wud be really great rather than always depedning on decoys to switch teleport..

same cud make ash more op too in the teleportation department..

In the end i wud like to say that the ash rework is not totally a bad thing cos i dont see any problems with it other than the fact that its still the same old bladestorm but with a task completion requirement before the animation thats it..

and Thanks for the hard work u developers put to try and satisfy our demands.. thank you DE

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

19 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

A lot of Warframes suffer from this issue when drawing comparisons on skills with very similar function. Teleport doubles up as a mobility for closing distance or escaping, Blade Storm returns you to your original position and focuses more on speed between multiple targets, can be used to build up your combo counter and always applies an extremely high damage Bleed DoT. Neither of them are useless, you're just refusing to use one or the other simply because you don't see a need to. Just because you're not using both of them doesn't mean that no one does so either.

U missed my point entirely. Ash was a CC. Your not gonna take time to mark when there is a downed ally. U dont mark targets before frosts 4.  and dont even pretend to tell me u will use ashs 2, because a poison ancient will destroy ash visible or not.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Kurstl]

Most Frames in this game have a niche where they shine. For my playstyle, Ahs's niche was killing high-level enemies in sorties.
Nobody needs Ash for level 30 enemies, as Frosts avalanche can kill all enemies in a way bigger radius in a second and isn't limited in numbers - still wondering, when that will get nerfed :)

Nevertheless, Ash could be the ultimate kill-18-enemies nuke even on high levels and wouldn't be op, if bladestorm had any downsides - but it doesn't, the opposite is true: he even regenerates lots of shield during the animation, and that lack of downsides on old BS was what made him feel op to me.

So perhaps a quite simple solution could be to just give him a downside - or make an existing one count, namely the absolut lack of any cc skills (if you want enough strength for level 100 enemies, your smoke screen duration will be crap anyways).

- activation for BS like it used to be

- Ash attacks the target that was used for activation, up to 17 clones attack the surrounding targets and kill them

- player only sees the one kill actually performed by Ash himself, duration some 2-3 secs

- give BS a cooldown of about 12 secs? Meaning you will have to run and dodge like everyone else (or even more, see lack of cc and a ridiulous smoke screen time, otherwise the enemies wont die)

Not a big change, but it would remove both the long cutscenes and the invincibility, including save shield recharge, resulting in a kill-Frame that Ash (in my book) should be, but with a lot of added possibilities to get killed during BS cooldown...

 

Cheers

Edited November 28, 2016 by Kurstl

[Herosupport]

I tried it 4 still has the problem of loss of control It sure would be nice if ash sent out shadow clones to do the work so i can control my warframe.

[RX-3DR]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

U missed my point entirely. Ash was a CC. Your not gonna take time to mark when there is a downed ally. U dont mark targets before frosts 4.  and dont even pretend to tell me u will use ashs 2, because a poison ancient will destroy ash visible or not.

Please show us the full details that DE explicitly described that Ash's role is to crowd control and deal massive damage to some 20 enemies with a single button press. Some Frames have an easy CC button, others don't. Not all frames are supposed to be able to handle a large crowd as effectively as another. Ivara doesn't have an ability to put all enemies to sleep, Titania has a fairly unreliable decoy ability, Nekros' Terrify has a limit on enemies it can affect. With the current state, Ash functions a specific role, and he has different abilities to handle that role. You can Teleport to the target and follow up with a Finisher and move to another, or you can mark out multiple targets like Heavy Gunners in a crowd together with a group of smaller enemies with Blade Storm to deal with them quicker while maintaining your position.

And yes, that's exactly how you're pointing out that they still serve their own functions. Aura effects from enemies like Toxic Ancients and Eximus can affect you if you Teleport over to them which then brings in the function of Blade Storm over Fatal Teleport. I'm not sure exactly which side of the fence you're standing on, saying Blade Storm is useless now in comparison to Fatal Teleport, then pointing out that Fatal Teleport has its flaws.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Flandyrll

[xRufus7x]

So I have played the rework and now feel comfortable giving feedback. 

1. The changes to Smokescreen are nice but you still end up having to spam it due to its short duration. I would prefer it was a toggle with some sort of drawback similar to Ivara's prowl but with a different drawback. 

2. The new bladestorm is interesting but doesn't really solve a lot of problems. If we are going to keep it I recommend not forcing us to toggle it back on every time we use it. Instead it should be hold 4 to turn on/off mark mode, tap 4 to bladestorm. 

3. I don't think these changes are going to bring Ash to where he needs to be though. IMO Bladestorm should be scrapped and replaced with a dual dagger exalted weapon, Fatal teleport should be integrated into Teleport and be given Bladestorms animations. Smoke screen should be made into a toggle with the augment increasing drain depending on who is hit by it or should be made recast able and the stun should be replaced with a blind that opens up finishers. 

IDK what to do about Shrunken. Giving it a stealth damage multiplier would be cool or just make it scale off of secondary stats or maybe tie the number of shurikens thrown to the duration stat to let us exceed 2.

[Vendalkin]

6 hours ago, Reifnir said:

Yeah, totally. I mean, killing packs of mobs at once while racking up stealth multiplier is not allowed and can't be done!

Oh, wait...

This post is perfect. I've been saying this awhile in my head, were now just crapy loki's that got even crappier.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

29 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

Please show us the full details that DE explicitly described that Ash's role is to crowd control and deal massive damage to some 20 enemies with a single button press. Some Frames have an easy CC button, others don't. Not all frames are supposed to be able to handle a large crowd as effectively as another. Ivara doesn't have an ability to put all enemies to sleep, Titania has a fairly unreliable decoy ability, Nekros' Terrify has a limit on enemies it can affect. With the current state, Ash functions a specific role, and he has different abilities to handle that role. You can Teleport to the target and follow up with a Finisher and move to another, or you can mark out multiple targets like Heavy Gunners in a crowd together with a group of smaller enemies with Blade Storm to deal with them quicker while maintaining your position.

And yes, that's exactly how you're pointing out that they still serve their own functions. Aura effects from enemies like Toxic Ancients and Eximus can affect you if you Teleport over to them which then brings in the function of Blade Storm over Fatal Teleport. I'm not sure exactly which side of the fence you're standing on, saying Blade Storm is useless now in comparison to Fatal Teleport, then pointing out that Fatal Teleport has its flaws.

Oh geez..so why use Ash now? And not Loki covert lethality? Whats Ashs unique skill set another frame or weapon cant do better? His 3 and 4 completely overlap each other and we still have cut scenes ... What u just proposed completely deligitamizes your position and proves u dont belong in this Ash rework feed back. move on bruh.

[ESL_Jens]

In my opinion the rework of ash's abilitys is a step back. The Bladestorm is much too expensive and less effective. I hope you will balance it a bit more. Please.

[KoinStar]

20 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

Just select "Automatic"

I don't see an automatic theme, only Blue, Dark, and Default, and it was already set to Default.

[KoinStar]

19 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Automatic, because your post is unreadable on the dark theme.

I don't see an automatic theme, only Blue, Dark, and Default, and it was already set to Default.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

As long as it still bypasses armor, it has no right being as effective in controlling a large group as it used to. It is a step in the right direction regardless, removing a crutch for dealing damage with barely any input.

A lot of other Warframes can disable or target a larger amount of enemies but armor can reduce the damage significantly. Go try out any 4th ability on level 50 Grineer, particularly, the heavier troopers and see if you can achieve good energy efficiency per kill on a 4th ability. If all you do is draw comparisons to abilities like Hysteria and Exalted Blade which are supposed to function differently, then there's going to be a lot of questions but does it mean that Blade Storm is weak? No. It has no problems dealing with high armor targets.

In a realistic comparison, the only thing that comes close is Mesa's Peacemakers. However, Mesa's Peacemakers have the drawback of locking you in place and leaving you vulnerable as compared to Blade Storm where you can mark out targets while moving under the effects of Smoke Screen.

On the comparison to damage scaling with enemies past 50, that's more of a scaling fault rather than the ability not being effective. Past those health and armor values, a lot of the gameplay mechanics just fall apart anyways.

The changes reflect best on Ash's nature and design, an Assassin. We're not looking at the fictional "ninja" that western culture adores, capable of slaying millions of people while performing acrobatics. This fits more in line with an actual assassin, taking out high-priority targets with stealth.

 

Even if a thousand of you were to protest on how much you hate it, DE doesn't really look at the forums for results. They see the statistics in-game, just because a thousand of you are upset doesn't mean that everyone is upset and that they are obligated to follow your every demand. Especially if this actually achieves the result that they're looking for, a sharp cut on the Ash use without dropping too steep.

You just proved why DE is having a hard time with their game/community. They a only listen to what they want to hear(praise) and they rarely play their game enough to understand the flaws of their "reworks". 

[Kaotyke]

Just now, KoinStar said:

I don't see an automatic theme, only Blue, Dark, and Default, and it was already set to Default.

Just dont change the color of the text, not the Theme.

[Yaerion]

@(PS4)Crixus044 @Ker-Blammo @zNightWolfz @Fearlessmutt @(PS4)ATreidezz @(XB1)Oussii @spatakiller123 @LunarEdge7 @Hitotsume @megastorm @Orodenki @NativeKiller @Prov3rbialToast @(PS4)ArnnFrost @Avynire @kyori @Hypernaut1 @Noobverest @(PS4)obsidiancurse @Herosupport

The Thread "Rework the Rework of Bladestorm was Teleported within 

 

[Yaerion]

4 hours ago, swift4ace said:

-

Teleported within 

 

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

As long as it still bypasses armor, it has no right being as effective in controlling a large group as it used to. It is a step in the right direction regardless, removing a crutch for dealing damage with barely any input.

A lot of other Warframes can disable or target a larger amount of enemies but armor can reduce the damage significantly. Go try out any 4th ability on level 50 Grineer, particularly, the heavier troopers and see if you can achieve good energy efficiency per kill on a 4th ability. 

Also unlike other frames damage AOEs, old bladestorm had no real CC additions for example Excalibur's radiant javelin deals damage to enemies and even when the damage starts to fall off it blinds enemies who survived it, opening them to finishers. Same goes for mirage's prism. hell even embers world on fire, equinox's main, mag's 4, chroma's 4 etc, they all are damage abilities with CC additions to make up for damage fall off, meanwhile ash's bladestorm only has scaling damage, which seems pretty fair and balanced in my opinion.

P.S. The listed abilities take the same amount of input as bladestorm does. Press.one.button.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)CFE Angry
FYI

[RX-3DR]

51 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Oh geez..so why use Ash now? And not Loki covert lethality? Whats Ashs unique skill set another frame or weapon cant do better? His 3 and 4 completely overlap each other and we still have cut scenes ... What u just proposed completely deligitamizes your position and proves u dont belong in this Ash rework feed back. move on bruh.

Because performing a single role well doesn't mean it will function in situations which are not in favor for that role. Loki's Invisibility doesn't allow him to perform Stealth Finishers on targets that are already alerted. Ash is capable of dealing with an Ancient Healer in at the back of a crowd better than Loki since Fatal Teleport gives him the ability to move right to the crowd and deal with it and follow up with Blade Storm if necessary. Loki can run in with Invisibility and use Radial Disarm but that doesn't eliminate the crowd and it wouldn't work with Infested. No matter how much you debate on it on pen and paper, unless you're looking at a very specific and repeatable scenario, the situation and the objective and swing in any direction.

 

When you draw individual comparison from a very specific standpoint, there's always a specific objective result. Such as Trinity for healing. However, it does not mean that all players looking for a more supportive Warframe should only use Trinity. Likewise Loki isn't the only Assassin frame just because Invisibility has a longer duration.

22 minutes ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

You just proved why DE is having a hard time with their game/community. They a only listen to what they want to hear(praise) and they rarely play their game enough to understand the flaws of their "reworks". 

DE is having a hard time because they know it's difficult to please everyone. Instead of gauging how well received a change is from the vocal minority that comes to this forum, they look at the in-game statistics of how many people are still using it. Most of the time, they do look at a lot of the more constructive feedback but the problem with most of them is that it doesn't fit into what they want to achieve. The problem is that you cannot simply cater to one group who come up with one good idea and simply call it a day. That group might be the minority in the situation, the solution might create underlying problems that become exploitable in the future. You cannot expect them to come up with the 100% correct, everyone will be happy solution, that's just not possible, different people want different things out of the game. What they can do is try for the best solution that satisfies as many people as possible while still within their intentions. They cannot just follow the demands of every vocal minority on every change and cause the majority to take the hit, neither can they just follow what the majority says and end up turning the idea into something beyond what they originally planned.

The recent change to the Carrier's Vaccum ability is one such case where after cracking their heads over leveling out the sentinel usage, they decided that the only solution is to give that ability to all sentinels. Regardless, this is off-point but do understand that DE has their own opinions of what they want the game to be and they make decisions based off the actual in-game statistics.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Flandyrll
Formatting nightmare

[Yaerion]

@ArionLightning @venon23 @Noobverest @(PS4)ATreidezz @S.C. @LunarEdge7 @BansheeSentry @(XB1)Knight Raime

"A more comfortable Bladestorm rework suggestion" was Teleported within 

 

[User1J]

Hello, everyone.

So, we all knew the Ash rework was coming. We all were happy. Or nervous. Maybe anxious. Many feelings were felt that day. Then, it finally happened. The "Ash Revisited" hotfix kicked in. I remember clearly being stoked yet nervous what to expect from his reworked Bladestorm. I'll just cut straight to the point in saying that I was... well, utterly disappointed. Considering that this is the first post I have ever done, I can expect some hate and positivity alike. To the fellow Tenno who feel the same way I do about Bladestorm in it'a current state now, I believe I have came up with a solution to our current predicament. To clear out the other abilities first, Shuriken is fine the way it is now. Regarding Smokescreen, I have not used it enough with all the time spent with Ash to tell. Teleport's "hotfix" seemed rather interesting - but still love Fatal Teleport tho. And now, Bladestorm. I'll be blunt and speak for probably the majority of the community in saying that the rework was more confusing than beneficial. Let'a start with the basics:

- To use Bladestorm, you have to manually pick your targets to be "marked"

- It costs more energy to actually mark the enemies compared to killing them

- To use Bladestorm at its fullest, you need to use ANOTHER ability which also costs energy??

- The cinematics in using Bladestorm are still there.  **This actually doesn't bother me, but I know some people who are bothered by having the cinematics while using 4th ability.**

- With the new "Target Marking" system on Bladestorm, it not only feels slow on activating it but also really clunky.

Despite this, I feel that my idea of how Bladestorm SHOULD HAVE been reworked may solve all our problems with the current rework

Ash Rework Suggestion:

Rework (revised)
Bladestorm

Intended to originally have Ash's clones perform Ultimate, with Player being able to move freely

Similar mechanics to Mesa's Peacemaker
- Gradually decreasing reticle

- Similarly to Peacemaker, energy also steadily decreases

- Enemies in reticle's line of sight will be "Marked" (clicking LMB will have clones deployed to kill all "marked" enemies)

- Clones will perform Bladestorm with Player as Ash freely moving (Player movement will not drain energy, only having reticle continually up will affect ability's energy drain)

- Will be affected by Power Strength and Efficiency

 

Hopefully, this post will be recognized by the developers at DE. But only your support will make it possible for our prayers to be answered.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by NovusNova
Removed "PSA" tag

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

15 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

Ash is capable of dealing with an Ancient Healer in at the back of a CROWD better than Loki since Fatal Teleport gives him the ability to move right to the crowd and deal with it and follow up with Blade Storm if necessary.

What ash are you playing with? because its NOT the current Ash we have on pc today.....There is no way you are gonna pull that off in a room full of 80-100 level enemies..and u can forget about marking them 3 times each..lol Especially if other CC frames are there...not even gonna get into a speed nova situation. Again u dont know what u talking about.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Neear]

PSA tag I believe is for DE and community moderators.

Personally I'm ok with Ash's rework. Especially since radiation sorties won't be a hassle with them and no more press 4 to win. Also I think his BS feels more fluid now more than it was b4.

[Vendalkin]

I'm almost 100% willing to bet that 90% of the people who like the changes don't main Ash and are happy about him getting nerfed because they don't like playing with them. 

[Acos]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

What ash are you playing with? because its NOT the current Ash we have on pc today.....There is no way you are gonna pull that off in a room full of 80-100 level enemies..and u can forget about marking them 3 times each..lol Especially if other CC frames are there...not even gonna get into a speed nova situation. Again u dont know what u talking about.

We call it 'Smoke Screen', the oft forgotten about power that allows Ash to move in for the kill like... Well, like a ninja.