Harrow feedback and discussion

[Airwolfen]

3 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

I guess you're thinking rage for energy? Depending on his stats he may or may not be able to take hits.

On topic:

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Could be absolutely insane.

Skill 2 on harrow gives energy with successful headshots. And the hema health on headshots. so a pretty good combo after you sacrifice your shields to buff the weapon.

[Evanescent]

12 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Skill 2 on harrow gives energy with successful headshots. And the hema health on headshots. so a pretty good combo after you sacrifice your shields to buff the weapon.

That is incorrect. His 3, in which he charges his thurible, causes headshots to grant energy depending on how long it was charged.

[Airwolfen]

6 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

That is incorrect. His 3, in which he charges his thurible, causes headshots to grant energy depending on how long it was charged.

Thought it was his 2 that had the thurble. must have mistaken it in my head. happens i guess.

[hukurokuju5]

NO.

 

think about shotguns

[Valiant]

10 hours ago, HerseyDemonKalon said:

i like him the vengeful priest vibe is what i get from him 

Mhm, though my post was made prior to ever knowing what the next frame was and was part of a different topic.

Dunno why the topics got merged, it wasn't really feedback.

Still hoping for a male mech frame anyways. With interesting abilities.

[Evanescent]

By the way, is anyone of the opinion that his model is really high quality?

Lots of details and attention, which is rather different from the broad simplistic designs we've had.

[LuckyCharm]

Im not sure this has been mentioned but I didnt hear any talks of how the headshot skills work exactly other than the base description. What i'm fearful of here is that the energy return is going to be the same for all types of weapons.

For example, i get a headshot with a 6 formad vectis prime. Enemy dies in one hit and i gain 13 energy. Next i pull out my unformad twin grakatas and spray 150 bullets close range into the next enemies face to kill it. Assuming all bullets hit do I then gain 150x13 energy? 

If so that means that once again snipers ,bows and other semi autos will be sub optimal to use even when playing a "precision" rewarding frame. And will that also mean walking in with an accurate full auto weapon like the soma, modded fully for magazine size and fire rate is your best way to maximise energy return rather than damage? Feels counter intuitive for the accuracy sort of frame the current concept is

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, Evanescent said:

By the way, is anyone of the opinion that his model is really high quality?

Lots of details and attention, which is rather different from the broad simplistic designs we've had.

I'm really digging his design. DE's definitely come a long way from the simpler models of classic Warframes, with newer ones getting more complex (Titania, Nidus, now Harrow).

2 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

i pull out my unformad twin grakatas and spray 150 bullets close range into the next enemies face to kill it. Assuming all bullets hit do I then gain 150x13 energy? 

Not to nitpick, but even at close range I'd be really impressed if every bullet from a Grakata scored a headshot. I guess we'll have to see how his abilities work on release.

[PsiWarp]

6 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

For example, i get a headshot with a 6 formad vectis prime. Enemy dies in one hit and i gain 13 energy. Next i pull out my unformad twin grakatas and spray 150 bullets close range into the next enemies face to kill it. Assuming all bullets hit do I then gain 150x13 energy? 

From the looks of the footage, killing the enemy with a headshot is needed to get energy. See 38:33 on Devstream 92, she shot two Detron Crewman chained by Condemn, both of those crewmen each took 2 headshots to kill, when killed a short message popped up above the ability icons saying "+3.3 energy HEADSHOT". So 1HKO damage is best used with his 3.

Now the thing I'm concerned with is the team support aspect of this power. Scott mentioned Affinity Range when talking about the 3rd power, but we can see that the spectral thurible has its own range where players have to stay in to get headshot kills to get energy. I hope he means that the energy earned by Harrow or other players is also given to allies in Affinity Range, like his 2nd power's healing aspect.

Because compared to his other powers, the 3rd power doesn't do much on its own and needs lots of setup to provide its one benefit.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Looking at scaling and team-support.

 

I think having Energy restore on Headshot rather than headshot kill would provide better Team utility and scaling.

Granted this is from Feedback based on Devstream preview of a yet unreleased Frame.

 

Edit: Balance idea for Automatics, and to prevent low damage build abuse

Basically ability would provide an Energy Object type health per target for Harrow headshots. Like an Energy Spore...once popped no more energy can be gained from that target.

Ability headshot health can be determined by Powerstrength+Ability Rank.

Duration of ability would need to end and be recast for player to utilize Energy headshot drain on the same target.

Edited May 15, 2017 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Trickst3rGawd]

I agree.

@[DE]Rebecca ^

[Aeon94]

yea that could be nice :D

[AdunSaveMe]

For sure. Having it on headshot kills won't just be a problem with level scaling; it'll be a problem if you don't get the last hit, which is easy to have taken away from you in this game. Like, ludicrously easy.

So for headshot hits, I think it should give slightly less energy back, but give more for headshot kills. Best of both worlds.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

Depends of the maximum input you can achieve otherwise It'd take around 3 seconds to fill any gauge of energy to its max capacity

Granted Ev trinity already does that, but I find it to be an existing problem already. Always having max energy only means that nullifiers type of enemies are most likely to be your only threat in the entire game.

I welcome passively receiving 25-50 energy per headshot kill. That is just enough to cast my most important abilities as I keep chaining headshots, it's actually rewarding as I play instead of just emptying an entire machine gun magazine on the closest heavy enemy and start the ability-spam all over again.

[VKhaun]

Not sure it would work. You're giving incentive to NOT kill. A weapon that could knock each enemy on the noggin twice, would be providing twice as much support as a weapon that was killing them in one hit. You could end up with people CC'ing a mob just to farm headshots with an unmodded lato or something.

Practicality would depend on the technical/U.I./effects demand on how they keep up the incentive to kill targets rather than just tap them. Like for example if your fix was that each target could only be drained X times, not only would that require code implementation for the limit but then your players would also want to know which targets they had drained or not... more code, more fx... It becomes a bit of a pit.

EDIT--

Maybe % based. 

Listed as restoring 50 energy.

Deal 50% of a mob's HP with headshot-> Restores half of listed effect, for 25 energy returned?

Edited May 15, 2017 by VKhaun

[KX297]

I would much rather it be on headshot than headshot kill.

I look forward to Harrow, and I really hope it isn't headshot kills. 

[PsiWarp]

As nice as that would be, it does tend to favor rapid-fire weapons with high accuracy over powerful damage per shot weapons, and maxing out most frames energy pools very quickly.

I won't mind if it does get changed to per headshot (hell I welcome it), but if it does not I hope that energy earned goes to both the player who made the headshot kill and his allies in Affinity Range (and vice versa). That would give a much bigger incentive for teammates to want to take their time to headshot, knowing they would both help themselves and teammates who stick close.

[Somb3rBivalve]

Umm no...

Think about it, if you just get a rapid fire weapon with high accuracy and low damage, you can just build up a ton of energy gain, freeze a tanky enemy (maybe a bombard), and just get right in their face, fire away, and now you basically have infinite energy.

It encourages you not to kill enemies so you can keep farming energy in a really cheesy way like the one I just mentioned. The energy return absolutely HAS to be on kill.

[Hixlysss]

I wish his entire kit wasn't focused on getting headshots. He should be able to reveal other weakpoints on enemies, like what Banshee does but only for him, that provide bonuses. All his powers should do something, reguardless of landing a headshot, they shouldn't be completely tied to the headshot to provide a benefit. DE was trying to make him like nidus, where the power 1 and 2 synergize nicecly with one another, and power 3 and 4 require power 1 to "function" but with Nidus...it only needs power 1 to charge them up and they provide a nice bonus for what they cost.

[LuckyCharm]

I have a mod that gives my gun -142% damage. Infinate energy as long as my ammo holds out? Really though if it was on headshot and not headshot kill, thats pretty much saying dont ever use a sniper or other semi autos with this "precison" based frame. High fire rate low damage weapons reign supreme as usual

[(PSN)MrNishi]

1 hour ago, Somb3rBivalve said:

Umm no...

Think about it, if you just get a rapid fire weapon with high accuracy and low damage, you can just build up a ton of energy gain, freeze a tanky enemy (maybe a bombard), and just get right in their face, fire away, and now you basically have infinite energy.

It encourages you not to kill enemies so you can keep farming energy in a really cheesy way like the one I just mentioned. The energy return absolutely HAS to be on kill.

Good points:

I am thinking the ability can be providing a Spore/Sonar/Object like effect on heads.

Meaning the ability will only allow a certain amount of damage to be transferred into energy per target. (Powerstrength and ability Rank can determine the amount of damage/object health this effect will have on headshot targets)

Visually it could be an energy  lantern or target/reticle that pulses with headshot and then breaks upon exceeding damage/energy Regen cap.

 

This would curb low damage builds from being headshot exploitable, while still promoting players to kill the target. Or wait for ability duration to expire to build up headshot energy on the same target.

Basically headshots with ability active would have normal damage & ability/energy damage that only applies to Lantern/Reticle/Head-ability Object  Regen health.

 

I think this would allow Harrow to scale consistently on regards to energy regeneration on headshots, regardless of enemy damage mitigation level.

 

Hope that made sense.

[Erl-King]

You can see in Devstream 92 that energy restored only on headshot kills, not just any headshots. It is unclear though if it restores energy for all in range and only Harrow could start energy gain or energy reward goes only to those who makes headshot kills, or maybe combination of those.

Either way it is way way worse than Energy Vampire in almost every aspect.
 

[Endorphinz]

Well when you people complain about "unlimited energy" you forget that Trinity does exactly that already, so I don't see much of a problem. I think that taking a low damage weapon would hurt you more in the long run than having unlimited energy would help you. And even so, it would be easy to just put a cap to how much energy can be gained per player, per enemy.

[LucMakai]

I think it would be simpler if a headshot "marked" an enemy for a short duration (1 or 2 seconds), and additional headshots didn't stack marks but refreshed the duration. Enemies killed while marked restore energy.

This way fire rate wouldn't make a difference in energy gained and you wouldn't be penalized if teammates get the kill.

[KX297]

8 hours ago, Somb3rBivalve said:

Umm no...

Think about it, if you just get a rapid fire weapon with high accuracy and low damage, you can just build up a ton of energy gain, freeze a tanky enemy (maybe a bombard), and just get right in their face, fire away, and now you basically have infinite energy.

It encourages you not to kill enemies so you can keep farming energy in a really cheesy way like the one I just mentioned. The energy return absolutely HAS to be on kill.

Really?

Doesn't Trinity already do this?

I know my clanmmates and I sure as hell use her for doing this exact thing.

What would be the problem of having another way to do it? 

And would it really be that powerful when you consider that most 'veteran' players have a couple hundred energy pizzas in their back pocket anyways?

I don't really see any solid argument against it. I also don't really see why it should be a once per enemy thing. At least, not while EV exists. I want a new frame who can pump out energy. I'm so friggin tired of Trinity.