[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[Kryogeneva]

Build: Energy Siphon, Pilfer, no forma.

78/175/100/185

 

DISCLAIMER - I am a lazy sack of stuff and cannot be arsed to screenshot/video capture. Sorry :(

Issue/oddity #1: Tentacle Swarm, when charged to any degree, seems to have issues tracking enemies moving through it. The amount of enemies does not seem to matter. 2, 4, 8, Sometimes one or more enemies can walk right through without taking damage for 5-10 seconds at a time. 

Issue #2: While humorous, the tentacles slapping enemies 200 feet in the air at high power is counter productive :( 

Issue/oddity #3: Cannot tell when I can begin charging a move after using a charged move. Hydroid just sits there as I randomly try different timings on #1 to recast as close to a previous charge as possible. 

Issue #4: Undertow not able to grab certain enemies. Eximus seem completely immune, but they take damage from warframe abilities, they can be stunned, slowed, etc. Seems inconsistent with gameplay.

Issue #5: Tempest Barrage feels like it needs more "liquid fury per second", or LFS, when charged. When charged, the increased damage is nice, but it almost never hits anything. Simply casting it 2 times is far more effective overall. I think increasing LFS in proportion to time charged would fix this?

Odd bug #1: While on Uranus, after using hydroid for quite some time, I did a slide kick into the water, and was able to maintain hydroid form(no archwing). Jumping out and then back in, archwing was back. Was not able to duplicate. This may not be(probably isn't) hydroid specific.

Oddity #2: when casting Tentacle Swarm, even though it is one handed, why does he stagger at the end? Weird.

 

 

-I do enjoy the rework. It feels like a FUN frame. Not necessarily game breaking or mission dominating, but not useless either. Cheers, dev team!

 

 

 

[Enclave_commander]

Update won't work and I'm pretty sure it's not just me

[MonkeyOfDeath]

i like the Update but hydroid still falls off pretty easy i would like to see a Dmg buff to Tentacle Swarm so it doubles the dmg for every enemy caught by it or per second same with his 3 up the base DMG to a higher number and he would be a really good frame he is a good frame right now but he still need a few more touches before hes up to pare with the rest i hope to see more improvements. :)

Edited August 10, 2017 by MonkeyOfDeath

[Lt_Scout]

Been playing him since the update went live, not too impressed at all. Honestly, the way his abilities work still don't quite synergize, as the environment often gets in the way. And even when you can get a good synergy going, you're still basically throwing spitballs at anything that's above level 30 which is disappointing. I had hoped for more damage buffs for his 4 and a total rework for the rest of his skills but that obviously didn't happen. 

 

Side note; Do these feedback threads actually get taken into consideration for buffs/reworks or are they just dumping grounds, more or less?

[-QUILL_PETER-]

I still think Tempest Barrage should be a channeled AoE. And if he could get either a larger energy pool or some form of baked-in energy return, that would be fantastic if acceptable. 

[Tesseract7777]

8 minutes ago, Neightrix said:

I hope we're not assuming all criticism is kneejerk. Of course praise the positive changes when they have an actual effect, but there's no reason to dismiss negative feedback when it's accurate. Good feedback that isn't all praise, and it got you quite a few good changes to Oberon over what was initially done.

Seems like range across the board is less, especially Undertow. "But you can move now!" Can you? Tidal Surge moves you very little and eats energy, and the base movement is so slow it's almost not even there. Undertow also doesn't carry enemies with it. Also, when charged attacks cost 2x more energy, why do they also take 4x longer to cast? Seems like double dipping on the drawbacks. And I know it's not going to happen, but he really needs all of his augments by default. Newer frames don't have to deal with having their abilities gimped and sold separately.

This is the right kind of feedback right here, and I hope you post stuff like this in the main Hydroid feedback thread so they can see it (or perhaps you already have). 

But I think the person you are quoting is talking more about the kind of people who see a rework that doesn't look like what they imagined, and the whole thing is just terrible. They aren't giving feedback on what flaws the rework has and how to fix them. The just pretty much rant about how the whole thing is awful. 

The rework wasn't what they personally thought was best, and because they didn't get their way, they want DE to go back to the drawing board entirely and start over on the rework -- which isn't a particularly reasonable position. After all this work, going back to the drawing board and totally starting over isn't probably an option. 

I have also seen some people say that they thought 1-2 of Hydroid's abilities should have been entirely removed and replaced with something different, and it is clear to me they will never give their personal blessing to the rework as long as that doesn't happen. Some of these people have a specific idea in mind for a replacement ability, and are really upset that that replacement isn't happening. There is a category of knee jerkers on any rework who aren't interested in getting DE to improve the issues with the rework, but simply see a rework that doesn't fit their own vision, and want DE to start over from scratch and do more like what they want personally. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[Aenris]

Came back to add more thoughts. Hydroid needs his unreliability fixed somehow:

-The barrage still hits whenever it wants, in any angle it likes. Can't we make the charged version more narrowed, so we can choose between focusing one little area or a spread area?

-The wave doesn't always take the enemies with you. Sometimes they fly away randomly. To make it work better with the undertow, I need it to ensure me it's always gonna drag enemies and to the specific point i'm dashing. If not, i'll only use this while running into a wall =/

-The puddle works fine... except that it realeases enemies when i move from the original spot i cast the skill. This is annoying. Specially when you want to move in wave form and you don't drag enemies like you. Wouldn't it be awesome to "eat" every enemy you touch and drag them the entire map? perhaps with a cap limit so we won't run into performance issues, but Hydroid will be even greater if he becomes this water-shark in the ground-thing that Captures enemies, then cast tentacles and corroding barrage in one little concentrated spot for him and the team to obliberate them :D

-The tentacles need to stop flaling everyone around so violently. Sometimes a tentacle in the roof will drag the enemy above you, and if you're carrying precision weapons and can't reach him with your melee... well, good luck hitting him. Most of the time i end up recasting tentacles somewhere else so i can kill the enemies. I'd propose the tentacles flail less abruptedly and slower, and perhaps make it so they constrict the enemies rather than stick to them. Maybe in a similar fashion of Vauban's Bastille (heck, you can recycle the exact same animation as a PH)

[DEADSHOT456]

First Impressions -

• Hydroid still feels underwhelming without Pilfering Swarm.
• Tentacle Swarm still feels arbitrary and still misses targets.
• Undertow damage is still pitiful.
• Only useful thing Hydroid does is soft CC with Tidal Surge+Undertow combo.
• Tempest Barrage is still that RNG based thing that misses.
• His passive is still one of the worst, like seriously, change that to something useful.

Possible improvements -

• Increase Tentacle swarm damage and decrease cast time. Seriously, cast time is way too much in comparison to what it does.
• Scale the number of tentacles with power strength or power range, which ever seems better. Having 10 tentacles over a wider range by spending more energy is not beneficial at all. I would rather cast it twice to have 20 tentacles and thus more cc.
• Hydroid's arsenal needs a new ability and Tidal Surge+Undertow combo should actually be a single power. These abilities on their own does very little compared to other Warframes.
• Tempest Barrage need to be precise, something like Yondu's Needle Arrow in Guardians of the Galaxy. A single water needle that seeks out a few targets close to each other.

Tbh, not that impressed with the reworks. Honestly speaking, this seems more like a synergy update than a full blown rework that Hydroid needed. All I could see new was that every ability could be cast while another ability is active. Thats about it.

Edited August 10, 2017 by DEADSHOT456

[Soup2504]

2 hours ago, Defion said:

Aw really? more at a bigger area? I need more at a smaller area to make use of those lovely choke points. 

Good news: Undertow had its range reduced, and if you cast tentacles while in undertow, the tentacles only spawn in the undertow area. If you hold cast tentacles while in undertow, you have a nice large group of tentacles in a small area for chokepoints.

[I0NEW0LF]

Was really hoping for a major rework. In the lines of this...

Passive: Slam attack has chance to spawn a fish that seeks out and attacks enemy. 

First ability: kind of like his current one to be honest. Just better optimized to work well with mods.

Second ability: Summons a whirlpool at targeted location, pool pulls enemies to center. Can have 3 active at max rank.

Third ability: Propels a tidal wave in a line in front of Hydroid, knocks enemies back/up. Increased range increases width and distance traveled.

Fourth/Ult: Keep the tentacles (don't want to have to make new models) but have them more localized. Similar to a target, the closer to the center an enemy is the more damage they take. 

Was really hoping for something like this. Oh well.

And yes I know this is very similar to Poseidon from smite. Shhh don't tell anyone.

[Tesseract7777]

I think his passive may be the one thing that was, when I think about it, before I get to the full testing, perhaps a little forgotten here. 

The old passive had a certain decent synergy for Hydroid before, sort of. Now with the new changes I think he's rarely going to be slam attacking that much. 

I think perhaps the passive should be replaced with something. I'm not sure the passive really works that well with the new rework (arguably it never worked that well). 

With the encouragement to use his abilities, focus on their synergies and be in "ability mode" a lot more often, I just don't see it being that useful. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[BaconPinata]

Look, I like what you did with Oberon, but this update was a huge letdown. I apologize for the pessimisn, but I just can't help it when faced with this new rework. It is as if the devs couldn't decide what he should be, so they didn't give him anything but a little crowd control. It's not hopeless, but he still needs a lot of work.

First, his 1: Tempest Barrage. Honestly, this has to be my favorite of his abilities, which sadly isn't saying a whole lot. I like the increased range it now has and its ability to lightly CC an area. For a 1 ability, it is acceptable. It deals very little damage, but its purpose is mostly to knock enemies down. It isn't quick CC by any means though, forcing you to hope that one of the rounds falls on an enemy. Its augment is a bit disappointing, only applying corrosive procs instead of armor stripping.

Second, his 2: Tidal Wave. This ability is a quick CC knockdown, a way to get around in undertow, and a way to fly off of the map by accident. It doesn't really do a whole lot, but I suppose if undertow is any good, it is excusable and a quality of life ability (spoilers: it isn't)

Now onto his 3: Undertow. His 1 and 2 haven't really been super substantial abilities, so it is up to his 3 and 4 to make up for it. Sadly, undertow still exists. I honestly have no idea how this puddle made it through other than to serve as a meme. It looks really cool now, cinematically dragging enemies down in a horror movie-esque fashion. But then they inevitably end up crawling out because it doesn't do a reasonable amount of damage. It is a small area of CC where the enemies sloooowly take damage and no one can hit them. You can try to kill them with tempest barrage, but as I stated earlier, it won't do enough damage to harm them. You can also cast his tentacle swarm, but as I'm about to get into, it won't do any significant amount of damage either.

Lastly, his 4: Tentacle Swarm. All of the preceeding abilities have been either average or incredibly lacking, so they must have made his last one good, right? Nope. This ability will throw enemies up if cast below them and then grab them with flailing tentacles (that I can't make pink anymore). The ability, like the others, does look cooler now, but its practicality is subpar. It applies CC to a large area if you take the time to charge it (which takes way too long) and then flings the enemies around. That sounds alright, but you have to consider how insanely difficult it is to actually kill most enemies with this. They fly around so fast that it is almost impossible to hit them with anything other than the Lenz. This means that the enemies can't hit you and you can't hit them. This ability also lacks a reasonable amount of damage and is only used as dps against fodder enemies/ parties full of buffs designed for farming.

You may be asking: why is this guy so focused on the amount of damage hydroids abilities do? He isn't a dps frame; he is a CC frame. And you're right, but his CC makes doing anything in the game difficult and you'd need them to deal a lot of damage to make up for that fact. In undertow, you can cast your abilities and that's it. You can't shoot to damage the enemies while in this form. With his tentacle swarm active, you won't be able to hit the enemies. His CC makes it way too hard to damage enemies with weapons, so his abilities would have to make up for it.

Not only that, but CC is his ONLY strength (other than farming, which isn't a practical strength in most cases unless we are looking at nekros' 3, which will give you more items and not require you let weak tentacles kill the enemies). He can't really tank with 100 health and 125 shields, he can only heal with an augment that makes him even more thirsty, he can't dps because his abilities do almost no damage and can't strip armor, he can't stealth with those booming thighs, and he can't buff because he doesn't have any. His only strength is also his greatest weakness by making it impossible for him to do anything.

I want to like hydroid, I really do. But his existing abilities simply don't currently work with the kind of game this is. You can't put lipstick on a pig, and they tried to do that by making his abilities look prettier and ignoring all of his flaws. I can overcome the fact that this puddle pirate doesn't have any abilities that a pirate would have (perhaps he could have been like a ghost pirate or something. idk. It would have been difficult to do so I can let that one slide) but his abilities just do what they need to do. DE thought that they could add casting while you're in a puddle and a slightly better tentacle swarm and that it would be enough. Hydroid is often seen as the worst frame for a reason: his abilities don't let him do much in the game. He can hold down a single point as long as actually killing the enemies isn't important, but that's about it.

So now I've moaned a lot about what I thought was bad, but the situation isn't entirely hopeless. First things first: just remove undertow. It is used to lazily protect a point in interceptions and to joke around. Replace it with something that can do one of the things he can't (heal well, dps, buff, debuff, tank, etc). If you are super sold on the idea of a puddle, then let hydroid spawn a puddle and not have to turn into it. If you insist on this, make the enemies splash around on the surface and try to swim so that we have a target to shoot. Adding some sort of buffing effect for squadmates (other than thirsty heal augments) to this ability would also be a welcome addition. Next, either make tentacle swarm's tentacles more methodical, bouncing an enemy up and down in a rhythm that isn't random flailing. This would allow us to actually hit targets. Make the action of being slammed into the ground faster and let them hang relatively motionless when they are suspended (thus making enemies still be damaged by it at the same rate). Either do that or dramatically increase the dps so that the ability itself can deal enough damage to kill enemies. It should also have a faster cast speed, as it takes way too long to reach the full range. His passive should have the same changes. Tempest barrage can pretty much be left alone, although like tentacle swam, it could have a faster charge speed. You could also make enemies knocked down longer, allowing for melee finishers. Tidal surge is just a meh ability and probably won't ever become something great. I think it could be improved by being released by hydroid like frost's icewave  and nidus' virulence. I also would like it to proc cold damage on top of the impact damage, or to make the slash damage not only apply to when it breaks.

The idea of hydroid is cool and he isn't totally hopeless, but he needs a lot more work than DE put into him. DE has shown that they can keep fixing reworks until they get it right like they did with Oberon, who required extra updates post rework to be as good as he is today. I can only hope that they read this, ignore the comments that blindly praise his update and do not become complacent with the rework that they released.

[---Dradon---]

I feel the rework is more nerf than anything honestly, even did a video on that. Undertow have less range. Tentacle swarm have less range and less damage (unleess you charge up).

Only good thing I find nice is the new visual and the kraken spawning

[Devouver]

The Kraken is such a waste potential because it just sits there and does nothing. Instead of having tentacles popping around, Hydroid's 4th skill should turn him into Kraken. Let us be a badass Kraken, swimming and jumping around, ravaging the entire battlefield. You might think that will just be a waste of time since they have to create an entire model and new animations for this. I agree on the model part, at least they have the head of the Kraken going. But for the animation, remember when we get to play as a Ravenous Golden Maw? How about DE use that animation for Hydroid's Kraken? It is such a waste that DE created all of those animations for the Maw just to showcase it once. I don't see why not reusing those assets and actually make Hydroid fun by turning him into a BADASS MOTHER TRUCKING KRAKEN!!!!!!! 

[MirageKnight]

First off, good job on the rework so far, devs; water fx are much more visually pleasing, there's some nice synergy with regard to his skills, his skills are better and more useful and he's not quite as squishy as he used to be.

Now for the comments.

Tempest Barrage: I like the fact that you can opt to target a wider area for more energy. My only quibble is that its hard to determine the size of the area that will be bombarded and there's still a bit too much randomness to the damage it does and due to the angle at which the projectiles come from, terrain features can block the projectiles, making this ability only really useful in open areas with no obstructions.

Tidal Surge: Dragging enemies allow is a really nice touch - drowning enemies in mid-Surge with a quick cast of Undertow is really nice synergy. Water texture is MUCH improved.

Undertow: This got the most needed improvements I think. Aside from damage scaling better and being able to cast all your abilities while in puddle form, being able to move around without cancelling the ability and being able to shoot out a tentacle to drag a nearby enemy in more than makes up for the slight reduction in overall puddle size. Again, water texture is MUCH improved and being able to move the puddle quickly with Tidal Surge is a huge plus.

Tentacle Swarm: Opting for a wider area with more tentacles for increased energy is a nice option. Tentacle behavior is better, although there's a issue with enemies being thrown into the air at times. Again, water texture is MUCH improved. With regard to animations, the beasty showing up is a nice touch, but its presence is a bit fleeting and rather minimal. It would be nice if it "swam around" a bit more and showed more of itself, perhaps reaching out with a couple of actual tentacles and dragging enemies into it's "puddle".

Overall, Hydroid is in a much place than he was before. There's well-thought out synergy that doesn't feel forced, the fx for his abilities don't look quite as cheesy, Undertow is more useful and scales far better, and the armor buff is most welcome. On the flip side, the buff to Shields is negligible, his Passive is still mediocre and deserves a complete rethink (I'd suggest making Loot Detector his Passive to be honest) and he's a bit more energy hungry than he used to be. I think a buff to Hydroid's Energy pool or a slight reduction to Energy costs would help here.

Now, to those of you that are disappointed that Hydroid didn't get a full rework...I don't think he really needs one, especially not after this update. If tweaking his abilities and stats doesn't do the trick (and I honestly think they will), then a rework might be in order.

To those of you that are disappointed with Hydroid's revisit so far and say that it's garbage...the update's only just come out and it's a work in progress. Give it some time and play around a bit more.

All that said, it's very early and there's more feedback to be gathered and analyzed, but so far Hydroid's revisit is looking good and he's a lot more enjoyable to play than he used to be.

GG so far Devs. Keep up the good work

 

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by MirageKnight

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Im breaking a rule here, cus i havnt played him yet (of course), but this hydroid rework sounds kind of fun.

seems like someone actually had fun thinking of what to do for him. 

Ill die salty here and fimish this post by complaining about the fact that a charge and hold mechanic for more energy=more damage should have been a standard issue mechanic for most if not all frames yyyyeeeeeaaaaarrrrssss ago.

[Jeoxz]

I love the combos.

But I feel that uncharged 1/4 and the puddle have too short base range(maybe to balance his new mobility)

Also his one did 0 damage to enemies that are knocked down.

[Lancars]

His tentacle swarm sometimes just sits there from the puddle and the kraken doesn't raise up much.

His tidel wave doesn't pull things with it and it removes everything from your puddle.

[Narubion]

You did a great job on the animations. Sorry, that's about it. 

His 1 was always to RNG reliant to be actually useful. That didn't change. 
Also, the only point of using it, is the augment, which doesn't work on submerged enemies. 

Idea: Make it a smaller area and faster impacts - let the charge but make the projectiles actually aim for enemies instead of just hitting random areas. 

His 2 has a pretty high range and can be quite uncontrollable. Would it be possible to make it an ability you can hold to use and give at least a bit of aim? 

His 3 seems to be the focus of this rework. All of the synergies are with this ability and the ideas are great to start with. 
BUT: If you got enemies inside you need to drag them along while moving, otherwise it's not really useful. 
Idea: Increase the damage of his 1 if hitting enemies inside his puddle, also apply the augment
the synergy with his 2 is great, as long as he keeps the enemies inside and not lose them instantly after moving
Finally, it would be great if the tentacles that he summons on the puddle would: 1. Move with it, 2. drag enemies inside the puddle and not take them out and flail them around.

His four needs to be either: a damage potential (200 damage per second is nothing, as long as you're not being able to hit the enemies)
a good CC - maybe just make them smaller tentacles grabbing and holding enemies in range and inflicting small amounts of damage

Hydroid is a great frame and has lots of potentials, but with his 3 and 4 hindering his team to kill anything, it's just not viable to use. Nobody wants to see a frame in his or her team that just makes it harder for you to succeed the mission. 

Thanks for taking this feedback seriously :)
 

[Ryme]

26 minutes ago, jjafargi said:

Ooh, this is a really good suggestion! But what could his new 2 possibly be? As for Tidal Impunity, maybe either add the status removal to Curative Undertow (it will fit nicely with the name/purpose of the augment) or just make it his new passive, since the tentacle slam one has always been meh. And maybe just remove the status immunity portion of it, since that's not entirely necessary if it removes them anyway, and it kind of infringes a bit on Oberon territory.

Given how energy intensive he is now, my suggestion for his new skill would be something that can refill his energy.

Pillage - Binds target enemy in watery bindings and slowly drowns them. Its essence is stolen by Hydroid's waters and a % of damage received by bound enemy is returned as energy.

Augment mod could be to increase Hydroid's armor, give him hp regen, or allow allies to also receive energy.

[Brasten]

At the Pathfinder playing DE members.

This Hydroid Rework has MADS (Multiple Ability Dependency Syndrome). Which is a bad thing. All of his powers benefit from increase Power Duration, Efficiency, Range, and Strength. He also needs Energy like crazy.

And because his baseline values for those in his powers are so low, having to build around MADS doesn't make it feel like there is any appreciable increase over all.

Consider looking at ways to reduce Hydroid's MADS, or at least take that into account that he has it, and buff his Base values in Duration, Range, and Strength.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Brasten

[Tesseract7777]

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but I doubt that at this point, after all the work they put in, and how soon Hydroid Prime is coming up, that removing any of his current abilities, or adding new ones, is on the table at all. 

I think we would get farther just doing our best to suggest all possible improvements for the abilities as they stand today. How to fix inconsistencies, or unreliabities, or issues DE didn't notice in testing that make them not function as well as they sound on paper, etc. And of course report any bugs as found. 

Bugs: I have read from multiple threads now people saying that since the rework some of Hydroid's augments are bugged and Pilfering Swarm and Curative Undertow are not working. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[Thundervision]

(Bug) Tidal Surge:

Eh... for some reason it leaves enemies behind the wave.

(bug) Curative Undertow:

Doesn't seem to work at all, I couldn't heal anyone when they were staying in the puddle.

Tentacle Swarm:

Still thinking it would be way more efficient and engaging if it worked the similar way the Atlas' "Rumbled" augment does:

Hydroid becomes the water Kraken (duration- or toggle-based power), gaining 75% Damage Reduction against all attacks with the ability to grab (LMB) and slappy-smack the enemies with [melee attack] -- at the cost of reduced movement speed. No more uncontrollable tentacle spawn or logic, you see the enemies, you slap 'em, and it's fun.

Also, the ability is one-handed, but it still makes Hydro stop during the final cast's animation, huh

[Xzorn]

He's more fluid in his play but what exactly does he do that would make a player want to use him beyond theme?

They had to give Oberon the best armor strip ability in the game to bring him from perpetual mediocrity.

I don't see much change in functionality. He's still a CC frame that ruins your group's aim. I mean yea, he's better at it but it's not like players were all that trilled about his methods compared to other CC frames. Why ragdoll enemies all over the place if you can lock them in place or take away their weapons and let them punch each other?

I would have preferred if his tentacles simply grabbed enemies instead of flinging them all over the place. It's really obnoxious to team mates.

[Kevrex97]

Honestly this hydroid rework is a step in the right direction but needs a bit more change. So imo hydroid should get a buff in base dmg across all abilities so he isnt doing 300 dmg when he has like 200+% power strength but besides that i do have some ideas on how to improve abilities.

Tempest Barrage: Have the Press to switch mode system so you can switch from place-able AoE rapid dmg to a massive cannon shot that fires in front of hydroid.

Tidal Surge: honestly i think the only thing that needs to be added to this is being able to move the Kraken ( Tentacle Swarm) with it.

Undertow: Adding on to the ability to grab enemies with tentacles, it would be better if it was a cone aoe so you can multiple enemies at once but probably cap the number of enemies to like 3 or 4 at a time

Tentacle Swarm: honestly i don't what could be added other than better placement of the tentacles