Even PC Gamer is salty. [PC Gamer Criticism of PoE for new players]

[Rhekemi]

37 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

^ this is exactly the kind of logic that the article (and some players around here) lacks, sadly.

Feedback that doesn't fit our definition of logical doesn't actually make it any less meaningful, constructive or valid.

If people aren't actually bashing, trashing, and hating on content, if they have actual reasons and rationales for their grievances and complaints (whether you agree with them or not), their feedback is valid and is worth the developers' time to listen to their points.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Rhekemi

[Abenoki]

1 hour ago, Antiphoton said:

If you think that a sci-fi shooter where you need to do mining and fishing for months 

 

That's a bit of an exaggeration, it's really not that bad. I've played only maybe 10hrs since the update and I'm nearly Tier3 for Ostron and Tier2 for Quill (not counting base tier of no standing/title). Tops it'll take a month if I'm being lazy (which I am) to reach max tier and get everything.

 

I can understand the articles points, some I agree with, but it's also something entirely new and I think we need to give DE some time to really meld this into the rest of the game.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Echoa

[Mintaro]

Nah yeah he got good points clearly DE needs to reevaluate the economy and of course fix the bugs. POE is fine at the core just a lot of bumps on the outside to be ironed out.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Mintaro

[WhiteCr0w]

5 minutes ago, Echoa said:

I can understand the articles points, some I agree with, but it's also something entirely new and I think we need to give DE some time to really meld this into the rest of the game.

I think that's fair.

This is entirely new territory, and despite its shortcomings and rocky start, on the whole I'm more glad for PoE than I am weary. I'd like to see it fleshed out further, and more areas like it in the future. They've already shown that they're willing to take feedback into consideration and adjust accordingly. The economy is already in a lot better shape. On a fundamental level, it being compartmentalized from the rest of the game may need more time if it's going to be integrated in any way.

[OniDax]

Someone finally wrote a critical review of current Warframe that addresses some of it's faults and doesn't blindly praise Warframe or regurgitate the feature list that DE sends out when they promote their updates? That's surprising.

Anyway, it's a good article. Players salty about a non-glowing article about Warframe should take off the rose-tinted glasses and give it a read. The TL;DR version is that, despite being marketed towards new players, this isn't new player friendly at all. It's available to them, but almost all of the features are for things new players don't have. Furthermore, it just feels tacked on.

This is what happens when 1) marketing directs the game at new players in an attempt to get more people to register for the game, and 2) the devs don't integrate existing features into the open world (meaning it's separate from the rest of the game).

There's one thing in particular that made me pause. He says, "I feel like I'm playing an early beta and not a final release."

That's the story of Warframe. It's not in the state where it could be considered a final release. It's been in beta for four years now, and honestly, it's state does resemble an early beta (where you're playing game modes without a clear structure to tie everything together). See, that's the problem when DE decides to hide their beta status and pass their game off like it's a released (post-beta) game. They're attracting players to the game, but those players don't recognize just how incomplete Warframe is. And Warframe's going to continue to feel like it's disjointed the more DE adds features to the game without integrating the gameplay into a holistic experience.

IMO, Landscapes are a good way to integrate various game modes into a holistic, singular experience. Most types of PvE game modes could exist on a single landscape via dynamic missions and static missions with multiple objectives. This could be accomplished if existing tiles were replaced with similarly-designed landscapes. New systems like the Kingpin system could be integrated into Landscapes (it is based off of a system from an open world game, after all). Doing something like this would result in a game that feels a bit more unified and structured. And that game could be structured so that there's a clear progression for players, instead of throwing everything to new or old players at a whim. If DE would come up with a development plan, instead of making it up as they go along, then they could structure their game so that you don't have new players accessing content for which they are completely unprepared. But what do I know? I've just been playing games for 18 years.

I know some people can't stand to see anything negative said about DE, but I find it refreshing to finally see an article that critically addresses the positives and negatives of Warframe, even if it's mostly about PoE. I'm tired of seeing only positive articles and reviews on Warframe that do nothing but blindly praise it without critically examining its features. So I welcome articles like this. DE needs this to grow and to improve, not just feature by feature, but for their development process as a whole.

1 hour ago, Zysyx said:

Anyone catch the fact that the article assumed warframe was a finished game?

That's because DE has removed all references to the game's beta status, so people think it's a finished game. I mean, the game got an "expansion" called Plains of Eidolon. Expansions are what you see finished games get, not games in beta. If DE wants to hide the beta status of the game from their marketing, then their game should be treated like a finished game. And if the inevitable conclusion is that it's lacking for a finished game, then so be it. I think it'd be nice if DE would focus on trying to finish the game. Being finished doesn't mean there are no more updates. It just means that there is a clear, defined, structured progression for the core game (which includes everything in the game by the time it leaves beta), and that all of its features are organized and structured. Warframe lacks that right now.

Edited October 18, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[Abenoki]

6 minutes ago, WhiteCr0w said:

I think that's fair.

This is entirely new territory, and despite its shortcomings and rocky start, on the whole I'm more glad for PoE than I am weary. I'd like to see it fleshed out further, and more areas like it in the future. They've already shown that they're willing to take feedback into consideration and adjust accordingly. The economy is already in a lot better shape. On a fundamental level, it being compartmentalized from the rest of the game may need more time if it's going to be integrated in any way.

In my years of playing warframe (5 yr anniversary soon) I've seen many major changes.

If there is one thing you can count on is that the big stuff will start out rough, it does every time. DE has proven time and again they listen to and consider player feedback more than most any F2P game company I know of. 

Warframe has grown exponentially in my time into something I never could have seen coming. We just need to let DE know what works and what doesn't. They'll work with us to make a game we all want and fits their vision.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Echoa

[Firetempest]

I feel its "easily" fixable with time. But they had to release it eventualy. Otherwise they would have been locked into feature creep hell. There is really not much of a wall in improvments they can work on in this mode.

But when they add in familure rando tileset mines. If they add in normal missions and their associated rewards would give some of that off roam progression. And a vender that will trade poe items for common and uncommon old node earth resources.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Firetempest

[Sziklamester]

2 hours ago, LeaserResael said:

2k credits for 3 missions
5k credits for 5 missions...

Seriously DE, when will you understand that these aren't rewards at all? You want people to respect and offer respectful criticism and feedback yet you keep insulting and disrespecting people's time with those "rewards". Maybe DE needs some bad press to start rethinking this massive grind they've introduced with PoE.

If you consider you can get 12-13k credits without booster for a max 8-10 min dark sector defense after finishing 5 wave and go it is really a slap on the face and totally a waste of the time. DE tried but failed again in this point.

[OniDax]

8 minutes ago, Echoa said:

In my years of playing warframe (5 yr anniversary soon) I've seen many major changes.

If there is one thing you can count on is that the big stuff will start out rough, it does every time. DE has proven time and again they listen to and consider player feedback more than most any F2P game company I know of. 

Warframe has grown exponentially in my time into something I never could have seen coming. We just need to let DE know what works and what doesn't. They'll work with us to make a game we all want and fits their vision.

First of all, DE hasn't expressed a coherent vision for the game. They're making it up as they go along (they've even said this). Second of all, for years now players have been letting DE know what works and what doesn't work. They don't always listen and they don't always work with players to give players the game they want. I agree that they listen more than other developers I've seen. But they also make decisions and mistakes that other developers don't make, and they often stubbornly hold to them. I think it's important to deal critically with devs instead of constantly praising their every move. It's also important not to constantly bash them. But being critical isn't bashing. It's ok to be critical. The people being critical (and critically constructive with their feedback) are the ones who care about the game and want it to improve. Unfortunately, so many here don't understand that and criticize anyone who is critical of the game. The people who let DE know what works and what doesn't are called "salty" and "ungrateful." I digress.

Overall, it's good to let DE know what works and what doesn't, but DE also needs to pay a little bit more attention to people who offer suggestions for improving features. They'll often listen to balancing issues and economy issues, but they also often ignore feedback that suggests improving features' core mechanics. When it comes to letting DE know what features' core mechanics don't work, they're not as willing to work with us on that. So, in that regard, us offering feedback doesn't mean DE will work with us to make a game that we want. They'll make the game they want, and they'll listen to our feedback only to the point where it doesn't challenge what they want (again, I wouldn't call it vision, because vision implies foresight). That's great for the DE-community relationship (and DE's better at this than most), but them being a bit more open-minded about players' feature suggestions would make that relationship even better.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

PoE needs tweeks, but the foundation is solid and there to build on. It will be ok 👌

Edited October 18, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Atekron]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Tenchi145 said:

Wow they really laid into it.

"the Plains of Eidolon is buggy as all hell." - yeah, I can't say it better

"For a veteran who is already decked out in a powerful Warframe and weapons, Plains of Eidolon seems like a fantastic new area to explore and progress through." - no, not rly, it's still unrewarding, boring, buggy mess

[Marvelous_A]

I laugh when I said "PoE bounties give sh1tty reward" and some re+ard replied "these are for new players blah blah blah" coz no players get benefits from the bounties. Newbies nor vets, neither of them.

[TrashSpider]

Seriously, why the credit cache? A veteran must less a new player would not need that, it's not a million, let alone 500k, just a miserable 2k-5k. As much as I love the update, I also despise the economy of cestus. Quill standing despise the update is poor, a solution like adding a daily quest to would be tied to the player MR would solve one part of it. The reward system needs to actually feel like a reward for the time and difficulty for the bounty because getting bombed, rocketed by multiple close air support does not equal 2 stars, let alone a pressure point. 

Now what DE did get right is the fishing and mining feels relaxing as hell (if you exclude the optional or mandatory grind for the more rare species/mineral parts). World building feels awesome. Sniper changes is awesome. But yea I agree with PC Gaming for something labeled as a place for new players, it awful and turns away many.  

[Unus]

While I understand I might be in the alien abnormal area of players who never have enough credits because they splurge every time they hit septuple digits. I DO at least know one fact we can likely agree on.

 

Compared to Specters, this was a STELLAR start-off. The key now, once the bosses go through their crunch-time recovery periods, is to KEEP them focused on Eidolon the entire time. Concept-up the Venusian area all you want, but, for the love of all that's good an sacred, KEEP WORKING ON THE PLAINS! Ell, delay the feck out of Umbra if you have to, just keep working.

 

Why? Well, because this was the update that got advertised in Times Square, this is the one that actually got us on the proverbial public map. If Digital applies it's "One-Shot Disposable" approach it occasionally utilizes now, it's doing so under the most scrutiny the gaming community has ever given us, save it's inception. Baaadddd for business, by a multiplier of 4.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Unus

[SoulEchelon]

Not entirely seeing the problem here. Sorry but as a warframe veteran myself, I gotta disagree with this article for the most part. I currently don't have the time to say much, but I'll touch on the economy.

From what I'm seeing here, the majority of what we're getting from Cetus is Operator improvements. That's what everything seems to be revolving around. I'm not surprised the economy is separated from the rest of the game due to this, because if we bled the rest of the game into Cetus, all of us vets would have our Operators decked out near instantly.

DE, just like they did with Archwing, wanted to give vets something new to work towards while at the same time giving new content in general to everyone. There could be some integration between the Plains and the rest of the game, sure. But asking for the whole kit and kaboodle would make this content die out instantly just like everything else. Quite frankly, I'm tired of not having a long term goal in this game. New weapons? It'll take as long as the foundry takes building it. I've been playing since beta - I have a treasure trove of materials. New warframe? Usually takes less than a week to obtain, max out, forma a few times, then chuck it in the closet somewhere. Story content? Few hours, tops. Prime equipment? A few days, tops.

Face it, the last time we vets had lasting content was when Syndicates were released. It's no surprise DE wanted to bring that system back and give us content surrounding it for this new update. This means a hefty amount of grinding for something brand new, and I for one, welcome it.

Edit: Oh and to add, of course I agree the Plains has some bugs and there are definite improvements needed. That's why Rebecca made sure to add that little disclaimer in pretty much every update since PoE's launch. They're listening to player feedback, especially for Cetus' economy. So let's all help our devs out, yeah?

Edited October 18, 2017 by SoulEchelon

[Arniox]

5 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Hopefully the fact that a magazine that normally offers glowing reports on Warframe is now telling new players to stay away from PoE should get DE to seriously rethink their design decisions and listen to their more non-biased and intelligent players.

100% this. 

They say they listen to us, but they really don't. They need to start paying attention to our input properly if they want to continue on their path. 

I'm lucky I was already a long time vet before this update. This update is great for me cause there's nothing else to do, but I feel sorry for the new players that get put off by the MASSIVE grind wall and huge waste of time that PoE adds to new players. I think they should have locked PoE behind war within entirely. Made it so you have to posh through a lot more of the game before getting to it. That way it feels more rewarding then a waste of time 

[Tacritan]

I have to agree with the article BUT..

Its good that you dont need PoE Resources for warframes and weapons FOR NOW.

Imagine if DE put all the new weapons behind the new resources grindwall.. yea, you see that too? Kids crying.. Loud.

Im pretty sure DE wants t o give us some time to get going and adapt, then they will slowly fuse all the new stuff with the game.

[achromos]

2 hours ago, Atekron said:

"the Plains of Eidolon is buggy as all hell." - yeah, I can't say it better

"For a veteran who is already decked out in a powerful Warframe and weapons, Plains of Eidolon seems like a fantastic new area to explore and progress through." - no, not rly, it's still unrewarding, boring, buggy mess

 

Actually I have to disagree with you, aside from how the Amp's are and Fish spawn rates (Though those were fixed or so I've heard) I find it fun.  Buggy, oh yes definitely but fun.

[Arniox]

5 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

I actually made a suggestion in another thread that suggested this as well, with Standing unlocking what you can buy from merchants.

Dropping the Fishing requirement from Skywing, Gara, and Amps at least and replacing with more common and universal resources needs to be a thing. This massive focus on mining and fishing, the massive grind introduced, the lackluster "overhaul" and forced requirement of Operators, and the shoddy treatment of Archwings have served to cast a rather unattractive shadow on all the good things that Update 22 did give us...

I feel like warframe is a mesh monster. It started at a core, the core is still very good and it's the main reason I still play. 

Then each update isn't an inclusion, or additions, it's content stapled on. And it's getting worse and worse. Archwing was the first real example. Must have used only a few staples cause archwing barely hangs on. And PoE is the same. Over all and great update, but together within warframe, it's literally just stapled on. Hanging on by a thread. 

If DE reworked the economy they would have to rework their entire design decisions and implementations. They would have to combine all their stapled on economies and mix them all together so you can mine stones in PoE and use them to build soma prime, or you can farm in the void and use argon crystals for a new Amp. 

To make warframe work once more and to finally be enjoyable to new players and not a huge grind cliff that newbies stair up at, they need to mix everything together so that you're always working towards a single, albeit far away goal

[Allerum]

Well it looks like what the community is looking for is to connect this plains and make it means something loot wise elsewhere. Allow for it to become a place of enrichment for the universe.

[FierceRadiance]

6 hours ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

Maybe they(and everyone else) should have considered that DE made this to last till the next Landscape and not to be played for the next few weeks. They gave you enough to do so you don't skip out of warframe after completing everything and waiting for the next update.

The problem I have is, I don't want to play this the way DE has structured it. Even after the hotfixes, there are a number of very frustrating things about the expansion, and I'm already tired of dealing with them. And if I decide not to play the Plains....nothing really changes, except I'm less frustrated with Warframe.

I really enjoy bopping around the Plains. But I'm tired of getting my a$$ shot off by Grineer that are never lower-level. I'm an L22 killing machine everywhere else in the game--except on this new lower-level-friendly expansion, where I'm suddenly a noob again?? What the hell, DE?!? We're told the enemies are lower-level near the gate, but I haven't seen a single mission that could be played near the gate! Every mission starts out a third of the map away, and subsequent segments always just happen to lead you further out into the weeds. Even just free-running the Plains near the gate, the first Grineer squads I run into lately always seem to be L25, and that's during the day! They continually call in additional reinforcements, and I've got no way hack a console to lower the security level (unless I just happen to be at a base, and even then enemies can still summon reinforcements), no effective way to hide from them, and no escape from the endless waves except to turn tail and run (not fly, because who can afford to fly) back to the gate. Unless you're a Defensurvival fan, the Plains has more grief than fun for you.

I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm playing the Plains because DE wants people playing the Plains. There doesn't seem to be any other purpose to playing there, except to grind for more Plains Standing, which is useless everywhere but the Plains. Everywhere I turn, I keep getting slapped in the face with how massively grindy the whole place is. Maybe if I decide to give up my quest for better standing levels and just pour my standing into crafting Zaws, that will make the Plains a little more useful. But that would essentially mean giving up on progression, and why should I have to do that to acquire the one item that's useful outside the Plains? Right now, I keep thinking that there are just too many turn-offs to play it.

C'mon, DE, stop making the grind worse with every new quest and expansion.

[FierceRadiance]

9 hours ago, Arniox said:

I feel like warframe is a mesh monster. It started at a core, the core is still very good and it's the main reason I still play. 

Then each update isn't an inclusion, or additions, it's content stapled on. And it's getting worse and worse. Archwing was the first real example. Must have used only a few staples cause archwing barely hangs on. And PoE is the same. Over all and great update, but together within warframe, it's literally just stapled on. Hanging on by a thread. 

If DE reworked the economy they would have to rework their entire design decisions and implementations. They would have to combine all their stapled on economies and mix them all together so you can mine stones in PoE and use them to build soma prime, or you can farm in the void and use argon crystals for a new Amp. 

To make warframe work once more and to finally be enjoyable to new players and not a huge grind cliff that newbies stair up at, they need to mix everything together so that you're always working towards a single, albeit far away goal

But you KNOW what DE will do, because it's what they've almost always done recently: they won't make things better, they'll just find ways to force you to use the existing bolt-ons. (Look at the EmoBoi Operators - nobody was using them, so DE made them essential to Plains boss fights.) And that's very disappointing.

Edited October 18, 2017 by FierceRadiance

[phoenix1992]

People being shocked from PoE, have totally forgotten what the Void tower system was.

Now I am shocked why did DE resurrect a model that was already proven bad.

[kuciol]

After reading this review i can only say that this guy have no clue what he is talking about. He made some good points (like bugs for example) but its mostly just stupid. He is complaining about things that he will unlock later. Like really? Its like complaining about kuva siphon because you didnt get riven yet. Thats the whole point. You go to plains, play there a bit, go back to main game to unlock new features and go back to plains again. PoE is not the main part of the game, its side area like void and feasures. Did he think DE will make the rest of the game irrelevant or something?

[fatpig84]

Do note that comparing the grind for AW or Syndicates to POE is dishonest and not even remotely fair.
For most of the part archwings, requires the same material as our main game, maybe some special resource here and there.

It doesn't require anything much more than that. Heck Odonata uses the same material as basic warframes.
Itzal needed a handful of Tellurium. Which you can get after several rounds of space MD.

For Gara, you need resources exclusive to the plains itself... And also resources from under planets.
Meaning a frame touted for newbies becomes one of the most intense to grind for. And unlike regular gameplay where mobs drop such resources, you must mine for it. Even if you hate mining games, there is simply no way around it. I for one hates shooting rocks with lasers. I hated mining in EVE online, I hated mining in No Man Sky. This is no different but I have to if I want Gara.

Or I can fork out the plat for resources at the merchant, then I might as well purchase Gara direct with Plat since it comes with a riven, slot and potato. That's a way better deal, but too bad I already finish the quest before I purchase, so I can suck on it (no riven for you!). Otherwise there is simply no option else where to earn resources reliably since resource drops from bounties are extremely RNG as well.

So a first priority is DE needs to make alternative ways to earn Plain resources as well Not everyone likes fishing or mining. Maybe allow us to do a resource trade or something. Then that can at least remedy the issue some what. Or the easiest is to make enemies in the plains drop the requisite resources. Make it a rare resource but at least I can earn it while I massacre my 10000th grineer in the plains. That is what I want to do and let carrier scoop up the remains.

As for Syndicates, yeah we needed to give them tributes, but every tribute item can be found via normal gameplay. You do not need to jump through the loops to get one so it is a very smooth progression. Stuff you find in POE are unfortunately useless for regular syndicate progression, so there's that.

Now as a vet, I can safely say that I am actually the least impacted by POE grind, because I got literally millions of resources sitting behind my back. I can devote more time to POE, since it doesn't affect my productivity too much. I literally picked up 8 neural sensors just yesterday and 12 neurodes the other day because I got 5 hardworking distilling extractors doing the job for me while my attention is else where.

But for newbies ? Haha no. Once they realized they got the base resources for Gara or something from the Plains, now they realize they need to jump to a couple of junctions to complete the build. And there is more to come. That level of grind simply put is massive.

Dual economies never worked for most MMOs precisely because of this so that is why I'm utterly flabbergasted that DE has decided to go this way. I was willing to give it a chance but I realize it ain't gonna be that simple or easy anymore. Hence the rant.

Edited October 18, 2017 by fatpig84