Arca Plasmor Change

[Fallen_Echo]

57 minutes ago, Kayll said:

@Fallen_Echo
How would I possibly even get that much multishot for the weapon to hit over 10 times off one projectile?
And that statement about hitting multiple hit points is false since this does not occur if you shoot them in the body only in/above the head.
Anyway here.
https://gfycat.com/QueasyQuarterlyBeardeddragon

I simply cant replicate that, no matter the aim or the range at most i get 4 headshot hits and 8/16 if multishot proc's. May i ask you to check what happens if you test it on a ballista or another humanoid with visible head part?

As i said the headshot were from the begining counted multiple times atleast 4 whenever it hit the head, its programmed to act as a splash weapon attack exploding inside the enemy head.

[Cytobel]

54 minutes ago, Kayll said:

*snip*
Anyway good luck with your weapon, I don't use it so it doesn't make much of a difference to me.

As I've said before, it's NOT "my" weapon.  I'm objecting because DE nerfed a gun to fix a problem that didn't exist in the gun, but rather in a mod.  That's my issue.

On the "multiple projectiles" thing, not what I said.  One projectile seems to encompass multiple "bullets", and there are multiple potential hits in the single projectile...

WAIT!  I know what this may be!  Recall the way beams are broken up into sections based off of time and RoF?  What if this is in fact a brief "blap" of beam?  Awkwardly phrased, but if that's what's happening here then we have a possible reason for why there are many hits in one projectile:  each projectile is multiple "hits" in one cloud.  This is PURELY theoretical, and it's sketchy as hell, but it might explain the issue.

EDIT:  The other point here could be hit detection.  The damage sources in the "blap" (multiple instances of damage, similar to multiple pellets from a shotgun) are there in the cloud, but the cloud projectile, being based off beam weapon logic, has only one hitcheck.  This means that any hit to the head leads to all hits to the head, and thus the bug.

God knows why they went with this for the Arca Plasmor...  But I'm now completely certain that's what happened.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Cytobel

[PrivateRiem]

Should compare this to the original Kohm instead, which got nerfed because Mirage was breaking peoples computers with all the projectiles. Instead of nerfing mirage, they nerfed the kohm, three bloody times.

 

 

[Peter]

"OMFG this new harrow mod is OP with the Arca plasmor, hmm... yeah, i see the problem, let's nerf the Arca Plasmor!!"

"Great idea, boss!"

...

[R3b3ll10n90s]

6 hours ago, peterkas said:

With it being a shotgun, it was never intended to behave as a precision weapon

*ahem* Hek *ahem*

Oh wait, that's a sniper rifle, sorry, my bad.

[Cytobel]

Also, the mod is on KILLS, rather than headshots.  You cannot stack time by HITTING HEADS, but by popping them.  So...

...Why did the Arca get nerfed again?  Punch Through is making headshots happen right and bloody left!  Add to that the fact that some of these weapons add additional benefits to headshots (Hema, here's lookin' at you kid) and things are kinda...  ...weird here.

-----------------------------------

Okay, so if this isn't about Harrow's augment (because I'm finding DOZENS of other perfectly awesome choices for weapons here) then what the hell was the point?  The gun wasn't out-performing ANY of the "top-tier" kit that DE's proven unwilling to touch, it was barely average in most respects after you looked at it as a whole (it really did a lot to balance itself out), and nothing other than the Harrow augment seemed abusable here...

I'm guessing this was a derpdate, intended to be a thing back when Lasting Covenant was going to be based off headshot hits...?

EDIT (again):  OKAY!  It seems there's something interesting happening with beam weapons and punch through along with Lasting Covenant.  Welp, no more headshots for the worst weapon category in game OR there's a rework going to happen here.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Cytobel

[Azlen]

Glad I now wait to invest into new weapons (partly because I can't be arsed) but also because nerfs DO tend to come. The problem is, we as a playerbase don't get to know when something is "really good" or "OP i.e SoonToBeNerfed". So it's always a gamble investing in something strong. It is minuscule at the end of the day, but as people clearly are demonstrating in this thread, it doesn't feel good.

[saradonin]

Well... everyone and their mothers were using it, and their kubrows... but it certainly wasn't overpowered or ever particularly good beyond blindly oneshotting hordes of low/mid level mobs...

So... WTB Arca Plasmor riven 10p? 

[Zeclem]

6 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

We have a problem with matchmaking, not spin2win. Efficient players will always be efficient. It doesn't matter what you change, there will always be a "problem" to people who want "balance" in PvE (which does not exist).

On the topic of Arca Plasmor: I believe the changes were not justified. The weapon was far from overpowered, and this is another Caustacyst situation. Granted, this change does not kill the weapon, but it was definitely questionable and unnecessary. 

balance in pve does exist. and the change was justified considering it wont do anything to the weapons viability, and it was(and still is) fairly overpowered.

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

The thing that upsets me here was their little PR spin about their intent. They did the same with Gara. They feed us these excuses thinking we're stupid enough to accept it.

 

DE, just admit it. Harrow, an already top end frame, got a way to become a top tier damage dealer, and instead of actually thinking it through, you pushed the mod through. Someone, most likely on the forums or YouTube, pointed his out so you kneejerked again instead of fixing the problem.

 

These decisions add up. We notice and remember.

[Peter]

8 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

balance in pve does exist. and the change was justified considering it wont do anything to the weapons viability, and it was(and still is) fairly overpowered.

Yeah, now let's nerf the melee weapons where you can do red crit on great range while kill everyone in the stage without any skill? or this isn't overpower? Oh sorry, DE wants to make more money with Maiming Strike, right?

Edited January 28, 2018 by peterkas

[(PSN)robotwars7]

even without headshots, Arca Plasmor still kicks copious amounts of a$$. it'll still be part of the Eidolon hunting Meta alongside Chroma, so really not a big deal IMO. if they were to nerf the base damage, then I would certainly take issue, but the Plasmor isn't really a precision weapon anyway. I don't fully agree with the changes but it isn't worth getting riled up about.

honestly, most of the shotguns don't really need headshots to be good. Corinth, Strun Family and maybe Vaykor Hek are the only ones where precision matters because of either crit-dependence or low DPS without multipliers.

 

[Jeoxz]

Necessary fix that they took too long to implement.

Headshots(not just Harrow) are about precision, just taking the Arca and shooting with your eyes closed to get all the bonuses felt bad,at least for me. Arca still works, still deals a ton of damage with a bunch of punch through.

[Cytobel]

Right, so ANY meta shotgun does what the Arca threatened to do before, the beam weapons are doing some intersting things as well, and only the Plasmor got touched...

DE, if you see this thread ever, PLEASE look at reverting this change.  There are larger issues with the Lasting Covenant mod.

[Peter]

2 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Right, so ANY meta shotgun does what the Arca threatened to do before, the beam weapons are doing some intersting things as well, and only the Plasmor got touched...

DE, if you see this thread ever, PLEASE look at reverting this change.  There are larger issues with the Lasting Covenant mod.

Or DE reworks the mod, or will have a lot of work to do...

[UncleWalrus]

1 hour ago, Cytobel said:

EDIT (again):  OKAY!  It seems there's something interesting happening with beam weapons and punch through along with Lasting Covenant.  Welp, no more headshots for the worst weapon category in game OR there's a rework going to happen here.

Interesting, how?

[Scharfohr]

Quote

Let me rephrase this: Digital Extremes nerfed Mag because Mesa was too powerful.

Wrong. They nerfed Mag because Mag was the enabler for the whole afk Play Style. While Mesa was pretty much the strongest for it, She was easy interchangeable with something like saryn or banshee.

Quote

• And the Amprex doesn't casually crit everything in sight? Besides, if shotties are overpowered, why not make everything as comparatively overpowered instead? Might as well embrace the power creep since it's so deeply ingrained.

 

that's the dumbest idea I ever heard somebody saying here. And thats why i am happy DE is not always listening to the community. They are way too much People who want to just have a broken power fantasy mess. (And yes even in PVE a complete broken balance can hurt the Game, and i stll have the hope that at some point we are back to a remotly balanced game)

Out of pure interest are you one of the Guys that claimed that the old (first) mag was balanced?

From what i have seen, most of the things that got changed were 

- afk/automated playstyle (greedy Pull, old Mesa, Mirage)

-OP stuff (Synoid Gammacor (though i am not sure if it would be problem it they changed it back now), Tonkor)

- highly Abused Stuff (Synoid Simulor, Telos Boltace)

(And Yes i know there is still stuff that falls in this category that hasnt been changed yet) 

Though i have to agree i dont see the Plasmor in any of these Categories. So i am bit wondering too why they changed it. (though there are way too many idiots who think that the zero dmg is intended)

 

 

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

3 minutes ago, Scharfohr said:

Wrong. They nerfed Mag because Mag was the enabler for the whole afk Play Style. While Mesa was pretty much the strongest for it, She was easy interchangeable with something like saryn or banshee.

that's the dumbest idea I ever heard somebody saying here. And thats why i am happy DE is not always listening to the community. They are way too much People who want to just have a broken power fantasy mess. (And yes even in PVE a complete broken balance can hurt the Game, and i stll have the hope that at some point we are back to a remotly balanced game)

Out of pure interest are you one of the Guys that claimed that the old (first) mag was balanced?

From what i have seen, most of the things that got changed were 

- afk/automated playstyle (greedy Pull, old Mesa, Mirage)

-OP stuff (Synoid Gammacor (though i am not sure if it would be problem it they changed it back now), Tonkor)

- highly Abused Stuff (Synoid Simulor, Telos Boltace)

(And Yes i know there is still stuff that falls in this category that hasnt been changed yet) 

Though i have to agree i dont see the Plasmor in any of these Categories. So i am bit wondering too why they changed it. (though there are way too many idiots who think that the zero dmg is intended)

 

 

This game will never be balanced lol. Too many classes, too many guns, yet expected to run the same levels of content we have for years.

 

We couldn't even be given a sortie 3 level for bounties, so PoE was day 1 soloable for most vets. Nerfing anything that shines in trivial content is just going to bore people into leaving, so they're stuck throwing new toys our way instead, which have to have interesting mechanics or why bother dumping resources into it beyond a quick MR cap.

 

What we really need is for them to take a year and really sit down and look at their enemies, not player tools. This is a horde shooter. We need lots of derp trash AI to plow through, but the elite units that are sprinkled in need more depth and synergy. Forcing players to change their strategies on the fly based on what rolls around the corner and eliminating "gotcha" style mechanics like the Scrambus units would be the biggest upgrade as far as I'm concerned. Right now, most missions play out the exact same because even those super elite units can be dealt with in an identical manner to the trash around them. I barely notice them sometimes.

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, peterkas said:

Yeah, now let's nerf the melee weapons where you can do red crit on great range while kill everyone in the stage without any skill? or this isn't overpower? Oh sorry, DE wants to make more money with Maiming Strike, right?

yeah de totally makes money from the completely inflation based player economy and not from prime accesses. and arca plasmor was stronger than that thanks to hunter munitions and likely still is on a bunch of ways.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

Rather than blaming the Arca Plasmor or Lasting Covenant specifically, I think this is a symptom of a much larger issue: DE's complete lack of future proofing their design, and their apparent lack of internal testing. It's possible they did test this mod with simple punch through (such as Bows) and just simply missed the Arca Plasmor, but I would argue that the Plasmor should have had a red flag from the beginning that said something like "if making something that grants bonuses on headshots, test with this weapon!" and that alone could've prevented this. Going even further, I'd attach this red flag to Harrow himself and anything that further increases headshot potential that said "test these with AoE weapons (i.e Arca Plasmor)." I'm fairly certain this is what the OP was trying to say, before the thread turned into "Plasmor is balanced/trash now!"

This isn't the only time something like this has happened either. Take Greedy Pull for example. In fact this is even explained in the OP, but (in my opinion) incorrectly. On its own it's fine, but when combined with abilities like Peacemaker or Sound Quake, or any other channeled abilities for that matter, it quickly become the best farming technique there was, and circumvented the limitations that EV had. This led to both Pull and Greedy Pull getting nerfed pretty hard. Yes Mesa did also get hit, but that was for unrelated reasons and were deserved. As per usual, this could have been avoided with some more internal testing, and with more thought put into future proofing their designs.

Or even more recently with Gara. There is no way her original Mass Vitrify managed to go past all the red flags in place without getting looked at. Or rather that's what should've happened, if DE did more testing and future proofing.

Now this is all great for the future, but how does this help now? My suggestion would be this: revert the Arca Plasmor nerf (or bring all the other weapons down with it), and instead place a 2 second Internal Cooldown on Lasting Covenant. This accomplishes two things. One: it brings it back in line so you don't end up with Covenant lasting several minutes, but the buff can still go on infinitely if you're in a constant firefight (which in Warframe, is always the case). Second: it future proofs the augment, so if anything else like Arca Plasmor comes into play, then it doesn't run the risk of breaking.

DISCLAIMER: none of this is meant to speak ill of DE. They have managed to make an incredibly successful game that goes against quite a lot of conventional game wisdom, and is all the better for it. This is simply my feedback, from someone who loves the game and wants it to be the best it could be.

 

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

6 hours ago, Drahczil said:

Im seriously thinking of quitting wf because of this. Invested hundred of dollars because i wanted to support the devs but this was just direspectful. People invested thousand of plats for rivens and they spat on that.

Thats your fault. DE doesnt control player market prices. If you, and others, were crazy enough to spend thousands on Rivens, blame yourselves.

[Sarge_Tarmus]

10 hours ago, peterkas said:

"The Arca Plasmor received a change yesterday where headshots no longer deal bonus damage. The Arca Plasmor was designed to hit multiple targets with a high-status chance, but with wide wave projectiles and inherent punch-through, a single shot could result in multiple headshots. With it being a shotgun, it was never intended to behave as a precision weapon, and the bonus pushed it too far out of that mold."

Yeah of course, now tell me the advantage to use the "good weapon designed to hit multiple target with a high-status chance", if i can take a melee weapon to does better than this? yeah, we no have problem with 400% range melee weapons with full 9999999 red crit dmg with headshot enabled, but arca plasmor can't do headshots.

High reload, low fire rate, low range, no headshot, yeah you've created a junk weapon, congrats!

 

Let's spin 2 win!!!

Let's spin2win, then.

[aligatorno]

31 minutes ago, EighthGear said:

-Snip-

The augment has a simple functionality : Add x seconds to duration on headshot kill. There's nothing to change here that wouldn't completely change the mod itself. So the question is this : Keep the mod as it is and give utility to hundreds of weapons but nerf the one weapon that can headshot a whole hallway with one shot,  or scrap the mod and take away a playstyle for the warframe and damage capability for hundreds of weapons and keep the weapons in question he same. 

The answer is simple and DE made the right decision. Don't forget, this is not the first brain-dead weapons which lost its ability to headshot, Tonkor being the poster child of this. 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

6 hours ago, elpapitoluizito said:

It was ridicoulus Overpowered and needed a nerf,for example not having punchtrough would have made it more balanced,btw opticor should follow the same path

Don’tchu freaking touch the Opticor, you. For the LONGEST TIME in Warframe’s history, it needed a buff. It got a buff, got nerfed slightly, and rebuffed again to a good balance now. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Opticor now, especially with its AoE capability toned down.

[(PSN)i7081277]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Don’tchu freaking touch the Opticor, you. For the LONGEST TIME in Warframe’s history, it needed a buff. It got a buff, got nerfed slightly, and rebuffed again to a good balance now. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Opticor now, especially with its AoE capability toned down.

all the opticor needs is a faint riven disposition.