Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Ahane]

As a Zephyr main...

*deep breath*

THANK YOU DE, I LOVE YOU GUYS SO FRIGGIN MUCH!!!

*ahem*

That is all

[Balfaulx]

Just now, Ahane said:

As a Zephyr main...

*deep breath*

THANK YOU DE, I LOVE YOU GUYS SO FRIGGIN MUCH!!!

*ahem*

That is all

Lol I do wana see flappy get sum love.

[Aimop95]

I personally love what they're doing with crush and couldn't care too much about the ability damage, I simply added in amping up Crush's damage because it seemed like Mag should have a high damaging ability if she loses the damage I propose to take away from Magnetize. That said, Mag's Magnetize and Polarize have so many unexplained parts as well as high damage potential that the rest of her kit suffer for it, not to mention that Magnetize itself is not a reliable CC. To often enemies that have charging animations will simply move past the Magnetize bubble unless the bubble has been loaded with one-hit-kill damage. This damage is gated behind the usage of specific weapons, which limits Mag's options. Killing the original target of Magnetize is easy and can be accomplished with any gun, it's killing the rest of his friends that requires Mag to only use specific guns. That should change as it forces Mags into using specific weapons to achieve any sort of damage.

Pull needs to not pull enemies out of Magnetize, it makes sense to use Pull to pull enemies into magnetize, but unless the Bubble is charged up, Pull will simply yank enemies through the bubble with little to no damage. Crush only applies the 1500 damage to the original target of Magnetize, who should already be dead by the time you want to cast Crush, because unless you're trying to kill an enemy with Mag's abilities only, there's no reason for your Magnetize bubble to not have been charged up. Polarize shards as they are now add no discernable damage to Magnetize and are essentially a non factor even at low levels (15-25).

Point is, all her current abilities revolve around Magnetize (which is fine), yet they are either counterintuitive (Pull and Crush interactions) or do not add any significant damage spike to them (Polarize). My changes to Magnetize and Polarize avoids this completely by making her whole kit focused on CC rather than damage, which I believe DE want's Mag's direction to be in, a CC caster. As she is now, she's more of a single trick High Damage caster that relies on a lot of set up with mild CC. 

@Sajochi

If any sort of sweeping change is off the table, then the only things that need to change for Mag are:

1. Pull does not pull grouped enemies out of a magnetize bubble if used on a magnetize bubble.
2. Magnetize keeps enemies inside its bubble at all times, no one gets out if they go in. The vacuum needs to be significantly stronger and Magnetize itself should be more friendly to hitscan weapons in terms of charging up the Bubble's AoE damage.
3. Polarize shards scale to add significant damage (incoming change) and be able to be Pulled so as to bring shards into Magnetize itself.
4. that extra 1500 damage Crush gives to Magnetized enemies should be distributed into the Magnetize's AoE portion of its damage, not just toward the original target of Magnetize (also I think the value should scale with Ability Strength but that's not necessary).

Edited February 4, 2018 by Aimop95
Added in what needs to be tweaked

[Ahane]

1 minute ago, Balfaulx said:

Lol I do wana see flappy get sum love.

She is my most-used 'frame, as if my icon wasn't notice enough of that. This rework... someone get me a Pacha, 'cuz it's just right

[Rekkou]

On 2/3/2018 at 2:03 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Rumblers - While casting, creates an AoE around Atlas that will petrify any enemy that comes close. Rumblers create rubble when they expire, based on how much health they had.

While this sounds very good. It seems like it give Rumblers so much new functionality except for the golem themselves. Once the rework kick in, i'll probably will only use Rumblers as quick AoE petrify then immediately dismiss them for quick health/armor. 

[Kainframe]

So this started as me trying to think of a way to implement the existing overheat changes without making the ability completely worthless. That spiraled into me thinking of ways to give it "synergy" like all the cool kids have these days, and that spiraled into more or less a whole frame rework. Whoops. There's a TL;DR at the bottom for you lazy/impatient folk. Tell me what you think.

Ember’s current skillset is problematic because it has only one ability worth using, World on Fire. However, knowing that her other three abilities are going to be looked at, we are very likely to run into the opposite problem: her 1-3 abilities are fine, but World on Fire is hot garbage, no pun intended. Now, I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t feel right. Having a lackluster ability is bad enough, but to have a 4 power, a so-called “ultimate ability” be the weak link? I’m not saying a nerf isn’t justified, or that I don’t want it, but what I do want is for all of her abilities to be useful. Not one of them, and not three of them, either. With that in mind, I have a proposal for some relatively minor changes that will hopefully keep her entire kit useful, or at least give all of her abilities a niche so that there's no "useless ones".

The crux of my proposed rework is in Ember’s passive. She retains the increased damage and energy regeneration while being on fire, however, she now also generates a resource known as overheat every time she casts an ability, including the initial cast of World on Fire. Stacks are gained based on the ability used, up to 100 points total, which decay at a rate of 5 per second. For each point of overheat she has, the base power of her abilities is increased by 0.5%, and the base range of her abilities is increased by 1%, for a maximum bonus of 50% and 100% respectively. This bonus applies before mods. Additionally, upon hitting 100 overheat, ember ignites, gaining a very low damage fire proc on herself for the standard duration along with all of the bonuses that normally grants her.

Fireball currently does 400 heat damage with a 100% status chance on a direct hit, and a pitiful 150 damage with a 50% status chance in a 5 meter radius, unaffected by range mods. I propose that fireball be changed into two overlapping blasts. The outer blast is still 5 meters wide, still unaffected by mods, and still does 150 heat damage, but now has a 100% fire proc chance and grows in size and strength with overheat. The inner blast is, say, 1-2 meters wide, and does 250 heat damage with a 100% chance of a blast proc. The inner blast’s range scales twice as much from overheat, giving it a range of 3-6 meters at maximum. Enemies can be struck by both blasts, which would do 400 base damage, the same as it is currently, as well as both knocking them down and applying a heat proc. This would give the ability a niche as a “panic button” for quick crowd control. Fireball would generate 25 overheat per cast.

Accelerant is relatively unchanged except for being affected by overheat. Rather than generating overheat (since it’s not really a fire based ability), it instead stops the drain of overheat for a few seconds when cast, say, 6-8 seconds at max rank.

Fire Blast would probably be good enough if affected by overheat. However, what I’d really like to see is for enemies within the fire ring (who are currently completely unaffected by it) to suffer light heat damage, maybe 50 per second, with a high-ish proc chance, maybe 30-50% or so. If affected by a fire proc while within the ring, the normal fire panic animation is replaced by the enemy attempting to flee back out of the ring. This would cause them to cross the ring a second time and take more damage. This would repeat until the ring expired, and would allow it to be used as an unreliable but decent enough area control ability. Like Vauban’s bastille, but worse. Fire Blast would generate 50 overheat. (Also, the initial blast wave of the ability should only have its ranged increased half as much by overheat, to prevent the knockback of the wave from being too large at max power range.)

Finally, we come to our old nemesis, World on Fire. The changes here are simple. Its range is reduced by 50%. That’s it. Damage stays the same. Energy drain stays the same. The only difference is that its base radius is now 5/6/7/8 meters at each rank. However, overheat scales the ability’s range and damage dynamically while active, slowly growing and shrinking the radius and the damage per blast as it increases and decreases. At full overheat, it would be doing 150% of its current damage at 100% of its current radius (in fact, slightly higher, with a base radius of 16 as opposed to current 15). Ember can still gain overheat from her other abilities with World on Fire active, and accelerant still pauses the drain. If after these changes it is still too powerful (which I doubt it would be), it could additionally double the drain of overheat and/or half the overheat pause from casting accelerant while active. This would reward ember for casting her other abilities in addition to this one, rather than punish her for relying on it exclusively, as the current change would do.

These changes would reward ember for performing her intended role of a high damage caster, constantly spamming her abilities, and even able to potentially maintain the energy to do so with her passive.

TL;DR, Ember's passive is changed to also give stacks of "overheat" when she uses abilities, which increase the range and slightly increase the damage of all her abilities. World on Fire is changed to start smaller and grow to normal size from overheat, among other things. That way you're rewarded for using all her abilities not just punished for using exclusively Firequake.

Who needs World on Fire when you've got Wall of Text, am I right?

[himlyk]

Regarding Chroma: I'm not a Chroma main, I own Chroma, but I don't really use him a lot. That being said,

I used to not have any problems finding random composition teams capable of capturing teralysts and the usual list of friends I run with when we make a team and wade in are having a very hard time capturing teralysts now. This change is a pretty negative impact. I'm NOT talking about teams with Chromas being able to one shot the teralysts' limbs off. I'm talking about teams with Chromas that actually had a real fight with it, and now have a struggle to even be able to handle it at all.

 

I personally main other frames, because I just like them more. But I still depend on powerful guns to do my minimal damage. And time into that gun, and potatoes, and forma. People who have put an excessive amount of time into crafting a powerful Chroma with a powerful gun should be compensated for their loss. I know some of my friends have literally quit playing the game over this issue. To spend months building up a particular frame and then instantly get reset that low is a pretty swift kick to the Neural Sensors. Or give them the option to get all that back or something (if they want it, not a mandatory reset?)

[EchoesOfRain]

Atlas... is there any chance we could get the popular "rock shotgun" by Landsliding into a Tectonics wall request? If Petrify is turning Atlas into a frame that relies on his powers over his weapons, it' be nice if we had more ways to deal damage. While it' fun, there's just no variety in Landslide, and thats the only real damage option he has when it come to his abilities.

[Arcturus125]

i'm starting this by saying that this is not going to be one of these posts where i just whine about nerfs beaus i want to be OP again. this is a serious and legitimate issues with the game and i think that it needs a look at to say the least.

 

DE like to nerf our good S#&$. and with the game belonging entirely to them, they can freely do so. however, if they carry on nerfing everything, a lot of players will get angry and warframe will lose a lot of it's playerbase. if something is too overpowered, it should be nerfed ASAP, this way people cant mistakenly or otherwise put time and effort into that frame/weapon and then feel betrayed when it is nerfed. If a frame or weapon is only good at one thing, don't buff the one thing they are good at, and don't nerf it either without making sure the the frame is made at least marginally better at other things. it's a simple concept, so why can't they stick to it?

 

Tactical potato in his latest video had a neat solution to this problem: when you nerf a frame, give the people a chance to get all their potentially wasted forma back.

here is my counter proposal: there should be a button where if clicked all your forma in a frame will be wiped and gifted back into your inventory. this way when frames are nerfed, the people can get the resources they spent on the frame back. this will at least calm the angry people who have "lost" all their forma to a nerfed frame.

 

here's my opinion (it's just an opinion, no need to rant if you feel differently):

i'm not going to say that DE should never nerf anything. i understand that sometimes things can get slightly too powerful and need to be toned down a little (an example of this is chroma - dont bother getting mad, you know i'm right, the main reason we all used him was because he was really really good, and apparently too good in DE's eyes). so yes, in some ways, nerfs can be good. but don't you dare keep  bullS#&$ting us by nerfing all our good weapons and frames and say that you are "balancing" the game - although this game is more balanced than most, it is FAR from perfection. there are many many overpowered things in this game that you guys at DE are turning a blind eye to. 

i personally think that if a frame is really hard to get, that justifies the frame being better than most. so upon saying that, one might understand why i get angry at DE when you look at Excalibur. in terms of DPS and damage, he is one of the best frames... And yet people can start the game with Excalibur being their first frame. on top of that, last year Excalibur got a massive, MASSIVE buff that made him even more overpowered. This is a prime example of how the game is not balanced, not only was he too overpowered, but they actually buffed him because Excalibur is the "poster boy" of warframe and somehow that justifies him being stupidly overpowered, and yes, imbalanced compared to other frames and how they are nerfed as soon as they get good at anything

believe me, i have a long list of things that are too overpowered in this game, and a list of weapons that are in dire need of buffs, so if anyone at DE reads this, shoot me a message and i'll send you the list.

[Rayoframe]

Am 2.2.2018 um 20:14 schrieb RahuHordika:

So I gotta ask do we still need to consume the whole 75 energy if we want to join in on bladestorm? It appears the change is more for utility than anything else but still it would be nice to know if overall the energy cost was also increased in a way to just do what we can right now with BS.

(Or maybe an additional tap lf the 4 once the ability is cast)

————

Oh and for Volt the change is just fantastic but I gotta ask since you’re going for damage is Shock going to be touched? Since it already has neglible stun with only the damage being worse.

The teleport will cost nothing, they said it multiple times in the stream

[BansheePrime]

Do you REALLY need to get a Forma refund from something OP that you've abused for eons though?

[Alienami]

The visuals for Atlas should be toned down to obscure less, otherwise you are going to see a lot of Atlas players forced to use black for energy color.

Questions: Is the energy per second going to be modified for Petrify? Or will Rage work with petrify?

Also, I am not sure if leaving the movement penalty on is wise -- there are still times when you can't find a enemy to Landslide towards, as example, plus WF is a fast movement game, which may handicap his pick rates on content besides more stationary missions.

[Arcturus125]

Just now, maj.death said:

Do you REALLY need to get a Forma refund from something OP that you've abused for eons though?

abused? we just level frames and forma them for what they are good at, i wouldn't call it abuse. DE have acknowledged themselves that chrome was OP and yet didn't do anything about it for almost 3 years, if anything i'd say it was laziness on their part, not abuse on ours.

if they knew it was that op, why not change it sooner? why give people time to invest in something that will be nerfed?

[Arcturus125]

3 minutes ago, Alienami said:

Also, I am not sure if leaving the movement penalty on is wise -- there are still times when you can't find a enemy to Landslide towards, as example, plus WF is a fast movement game, which may handicap his pick rates on content besides more stationary missions.

at least they are trying to fix atlas the correct way - buffing his bad abilities father than removing or nerfing the good ones? even if the changes aren't so good, at least they are taking a step in the right direction.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

34 minutes ago, Balfaulx said:

Yes he can so can half the guns I own by tapping my left click to clear

Can those weapons kill lvl 100 heavy gunners/bombards without using mods like bladestorm? 

https://youtu.be/NKZjfC5Iwtw

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Too many pages for me to read through!

With Chroma change can Elemental Ward Range be buffed to match new Vex Armor range = 14.5m

Also please change Toxic Chroma to allow for Toxin proc to apply regardless of other applied toxic procs. (His one scaling Elemental damage using a % of enemy health and it does nothing if there are other sources of toxin being applied by teammates)

[ObviousLee]

31 minutes ago, Ahane said:

She is my most-used 'frame, as if my icon wasn't notice enough of that. This rework... someone get me a Pacha, 'cuz it's just right

A decent chunk of other zephyr mains like you and I on the other hand find these changes extremely lackluster and solve none of her issues

[LSG501]

Ok had a little more time to think about the 'reworks' so I'm going to give a little more feedback, hopefully a little more nuanced than my original comments.

 

Ash... I still feel it's got underlying issues, we have players who complain about 'motion sickness' from wiggling the mouse to mark yet that's been left in, the cost doesn't seem to be being adjusted either and it's still using a triple mark setup too.  Honestly I still have no interest in using the rework and it does feel like you've only focused on removing the 'being stuck in bladestorm' issue players have been raising.    

I'd prefer a 'cone' that marked all the targets in visual range up to a set distance, a bit like mesa peacemaker, and only required one mark to activate bladestorm.  

Also based on the gif I'd say you need to speed up the clones or have more than one running at the same time, it looks like it would be quicker to just melee or shoot the enemy....

 

Atlas... I haven't bothered playing atlas much but from what I can see this does improve his kit, maybe even making him a little overpowered and as such I'll be waiting on the nerf after release.  Will it be enough to make me want use him or the spend the time adding forma to him is another matter because there are other frames that fill his intended niche better imo.    

 

Banshee... ok this one is actually pretty bad imo.  
Banshee soundquake is pretty weak in all honesty and to actually make it any good at higher levels we needed to use RQ because of the extra damage it can generate, it wasn't so much about the range but that was an added bonus.  Soundquake has the usual issue that DE seems to ignore when fixing abilities and that's scaling, a fixed value based off mods like soundquake has gives a finite limit to it's usefulness as the levels get higher or it takes considerably longer to do what it needs to do.  

I also think you're missing part of the reason a some players like RQ, it could lock down large areas which is great for things like solo interception....

And while many of us don't like the fact we're stuck in position with banshee the intended short duration being given to the new RQ could actually make it so that we're even more restricted in the style of play we need to do.  
Short durations mean we can't go far and while the old version meant we were stuck in a fixed location, this likely isn't going to change this on defence maps....

Also why have you added ragdoll... pretty sure a high majority of players don't like ragdolled enemies because they end up flying all over the place.

 

Chroma... He's already pretty limited in where he's useful but it does seem like this is more a case of making it so veterans need to spend longer doing things like the eidolons....which is the complete opposite of what veterans want to do, we've already done the grind to get to a high level and as such we don't want to spend all day doing it when new stuff is added to the grind, especially when it's excessive in the case of focus and quills etc.

 

Ember... ok in all honesty this seems like you've basically taken keywords from 'complaint threads' about ember and done the quickest thing you can think of to 'fix' the issues..
We complain about it killing everything before we see it on low levels... response is nerf range over time
We complain about it not killing stuff at high levels... response: increase damage over time to double... but still with fixed values so as usual no scaling at high levels
We mention there is no downside to using ember... response: increase the energy draw to double after 10 seconds...

All this is going to do is make our builds slightly different when we want to kill stuff on the starmap, we'll knock out a damage mod and stick in a range mod to adjust for the loss of range and increased damage, the energy usage is negligible either way.  End result, no change to the current issue of ember killing low level enemies and as such no fix to the issue that many are complaining about.  

What it will do is ruin the one thing that we don't complain about, high level content crowd control using firequake...Players build ember for crowd control outside of the starmap, DE even states in the comment that she's squishy (very much so at high level) in return for high offence (which she isn't at high level in all honesty).  Using a large range WoF for crowd control allows us to keep her safe from sniper shots and the likes, this change is basically removing that utility and as such removing he viability for high level (ie outside the star charts) enemies.  

I know the other abilities are supposedly getting looked at but it still doesn't change the above issues with WoF. 

 

Gara... Now I'll be honest, I didn't agree with the original nerf, I don't think it was justified.  Also MV is anything but serviceable against most of the star chart unless you sacrifice the rest of your build purely for buffing MV, not to mention there's no need for armor mods on gara due to her 2.  A 'normal' gara build falls off at around level 25 in my experience.
 
Now this 'tweak', while on the surface is a good thing it's actually quite a bad change imo.  It is basically making you stay near the target if we want to buff MV.  You can't activate MV in advance to act as a wall and pre-emptively protect the target because it will basically die in seconds.  DE says it's going to be interesting risk/reward scenario where as I personally see it as something that's restrictive and limiting to gameplay....something the original MV didn't cause. 

 

Mag... While the changes do improve damage the percentage of damage done to a specific enemy 'buff' will actually get weaker as you go higher level because of the fixed damage output causing damage to get less as you get higher enemies.  Because of this you might as well say there is no high level scaling again.  

The time Crush takes to activate is just going to get us killed at high level considering how squishy she is. The changes aren't going to do much to solve how bad she is against grineer imo

In all honesty this does feel like a 'token' change to try and quiet down the people asking for a mag rework.  

 

Volt... While I would still like to see some scaling damage output, fixed values never works at higher levels, I feel that the reduced damage output at distance is unnecessary.  I don't mind the reduced duration at distance although it does kind of defeat the point if it's to be used with low power for a crowd control ability imo.  

I would still like to see costs removed from picking up the shield and a base sprint speed buff.  He's the speed frame yet he's not the fastest frame, his sprint is 1.0 while things like loki at 1.25...the gap is even more if you catch a loki when you use his 2 because it's a percentage buff to the sprint speed.

 

Zephyr... Tail Wind is expected and an easy 'change'
Air burst, more ragdolled enemies, it's bad enough on tornado where they flail around at the top of the funnels making them harder to hit.  

Tornado... Can you make them pull downwards instead of up or something because the current system makes them incredibly annoying to shoot.  Being able to shoot the funnel will help a little but not if you're using a melee...

 

Now a little side note:
When I look at these changes the first thing I see is it's basically making things take longer, reducing how much focus we get and other things that basically are there to make things drag out for as long as possible.  I remember a comment from DE where they said they wanted to reduce the grind and supposedly these changes are to make things fun but in all honesty all I've seen in the game since the original comment is even more grindy content being added to the game and every effort made to make the grind take longer.  I don't think anyone would say that increasing the time something takes to complete or adding to the grind is fun....

Just take operators for example, something many of us see no reason for but they're here and added in new things we need to grind for.   They require 2 completely different mechanics which are to put it mildly the most grindy elements of the game for different reasons.  Quills is restricted to night time fights only so there's basically 50mins out of every 150mins and that's ONLY if you can get on exactly when it's night time.
You then have focus standing and while yes you can get 25k focus from killing an eidolon the normal rate of focus gain is stupidly low unless you meta farm.  Throw in some stupidly high costs for unlocking space to add focus branches (I could have unlocked another waybound with the amount I've paid out for the capacity pool and it's only going to get worse) and 1 MILLION points to unbind a waybound.  

If you start looking at things from the perspective of players who also have a real life outside of the game and as such can't play the game 24/7 you soon start to understand why players want to do things as quickly and efficiently as possible when the grind for certain things is so high.  

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by LSG501
corresting a few typos

[Almagnus1]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I mean...you have multiple people not just saying that she works in Sortie, but posting evidence and now offering to do Sortie with you and show you. You have decided that you don't like to use Ember at Sortie level, that's all. That's fine, mind, but again, the likes of myself and @phoenix1992 are not some kind of weird rare saints of Ember who know the secret to making her work.

No, you're the exception and not the rule.

[phoenix1992]

Today by sheer idiocy I ended up with Ember on the last Sortie.

You know, the Kyla assassination Sortie, that has no place for Ember in it. With Arca Plasmor that was nerfed and the forum did not shut up about it for a week.

Result :

 
(With Rhino, Inaros and Valkyr in the team)

All the paper DPS in the world, all the damage DE will give to WoF will not offset that WoF's damage is not why people play Ember. @[DE]Rebecca communicate with Ember mains and not Ember leaches.

 

[Balfaulx]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Can those weapons kill lvl 100 heavy gunners/bombards without using mods like bladestorm? 

https://youtu.be/NKZjfC5Iwtw

Its the end result that matters Do you always play ash without mods of course not, when your fighting level 100+ mobs do  you?  No you use mods in general and my point was I can out kill ash in his current state with him having mods with weapons that are modded vs level 100+ enemies. This means bringing him for damage purposes is moot when guns can do it better and you can bring a frame with more utility.

[Oreades]

So I've been musing about the Resonating Quake change for a while now and something has always felt off about it. 

Purportedly it is being changed because Resonating Quake and by proxy Soundquake is an unfun/boring mechanic that both the banshee and players playing with the banshee don't enjoy. 

So why leave Soundquake as it is? 

Because if Resonating Quake is boring/unfun then Soundquake is equally boring/unfun because it shares the same mechanic. So why is it OK to leave Soundquake as is if the whole mechanic isn't in a good place? 

[Almagnus1]

8 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Today by sheer idiocy I ended up with Ember on the last Sortie.

You know, the Kyla assassination Sortie, that has no place for Ember in it. With Arca Plasmor that was nerfed and the forum did not shut up about it for a week.

Result :

 
(With Rhino, Inaros and Valkyr in the team)

All the paper DPS in the world, all the damage DE will give to WoF will not offset that WoF's damage is not why people play Ember. @[DE]Rebecca communicate with Ember mains and not Ember leaches.

You do realize that all you're doing is providing justification for the World on Fire changes and dissuading DE from looking at Fireball and Fire Blast, right?

And also, of course Ember's going to have high damage in Kela's fight... WoF is eating all the rollerballs.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Almagnus1

[BornWithTeeth]

7 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

No, you're the exception and not the rule.

I suppose that's an improvement from being a liar who recruited clan mates to help him 'stage' Ember being good in a Sortie.

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I suppose that's an improvement from being a liar who recruited clan mates to help him 'stage' Ember being good in a Sortie.

Please go troll elsewhere.