Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[MagentTanau]

Atlas Changes: About damn time - you would think a warframe with the name of Atlas would be A-rank

Ash Bladestorm: Thanks for this. While it is 'cool' seeing the clones do their thing in cinematic mode... the loss of POV was jarring. 

Chroma changes: If you're 'fixing' his Vex Armor simply because he was one shotting Eidolon body parts - I understand Eidolons must be endgame uber kaiju difficult boss fight - but I disagree with your approach. You're tinkering with a warframe ability JUST because of its use in one aspect of the game. If you want more difficult boss fight to players, change the boss, or release stronger bosses.

Mag changes: Good thing that the shards are getting a buff. The changes to Crush are 'nice', but the rooted casting animation length still means I generally would need to give up a mod slot to equip Natural Talent before even considering using it. The change that I'm really looking for in Crush is a permanent % armor reduction/sundering/hotspot weakness generation. If I crush and fold a bombard/Heavy gunner in half, his armor should not be in pristine condition any more.

Ember: Rework time. WoF was really just press 4 and run to kill everything at level 30 and below - and that's hardly engaging gameplay. This change just means WoF isn't Fire and Forget (FOF) anymore. Some frames you just can't bring to late game, sad to see Ember is being relegated even further back into the Orbiter closet, instead of being brought forward. Gosh, do something please to help Ember. Give her 3 the ability to melt armor or something... just... do something other than nerfing her even more into the ground.

[Phyrak]

27 minutes ago, Dark_Roxas said:

If you are only talking about ice(and part of fire) it is defensive but not the other elements they are just supportive bonuses, like EW is in general, weapons arent even buffed by this. Vex armor isnt even element relevant, it only buffs your defensive(frame) and offensive (weapon) stats.

 

Even if they combine EW and VA what should be the new ablitiy?

The new ability is very open to the interpretation of the devs or the players.

One could go a full step towards dragon and channel out wings and claws that buffs spectral scream or perhaps go the other way in the knight side of his theme and go towards an elemental knight like that of DotA.

My personal preference is that of the dragon, but that is not everyone's taste.

Thus, this discussion for such potential.

[Glavenusaur]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Stop embarrassing yourself. 

Your opinions so far: 

1) People play Ember only to steam roll star chart (even though Equinox is a lot better for that)
2) People will not keep using Ember for steam roll the star chart. Because it is that hard to double tap 4.
3) Monetization for DE is a small matter. 

And i said where exactly that people only play ember to steam roll the star chart? nor did i say monetization for DE is a small matter? why don't you stop embarrassing yourself and start reading what people actually say instead of straw manning them?

[TyrianMollusk]

17 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

CHROMA

Spectral Scream - Removed walk speed and jump restrictions You can now freely move while this is active! Damage output is now also affected by the Vex Armor's Fury bonus!

But it still does negligible damage at the cost of your entire offensive kit.  Giving it a boost won't change that the entire ability is purely there for novelty and you are always better of just shooting things.

How about fixing it in a way that actually makes it fun and helpful, like by letting us quit pretending our arms don't work, and run melee mode while screaming?  Now it's not negligible anti-damage, it's bonus damage and helpful status.

[Vlada91]

You know we have on Vauban power 1 to change with 3 more powers in just that 1 power slot, so its like in the end he have more then just 4 powers....We can have that options for Volt for example:his power 2 can have 2 more powers,shield, speed or electric damage for melee weapons,power 3 is what we have now on power 4 and power 4 can become like some electric weapon that you can fight like wukong,excal or valkyr that they have...For  power 1 we need to have options to hold power 1 for mor lightings same for power 4 that we have now like options that we have on Hydroid

Edited February 3, 2018 by Vlada91

[phoenix1992]

6 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:

I understood from the thread that she will now scale better into the end game with more damage output but will not demolish everything so fast that not even Ember can get a glance of enemies.

 

No it won't due enemy Armor scaling. Do coupe of runs with builds with different power Strength values and evaluate the output of WoF. It falls out pretty around 60-80 even with high power values.
 

7 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:

Firequake:
As it is now and I see it, It just give Ember more time to breath and deal her damage in the late game. Jsut batter version of the build above.
Considering the changes, it is still a better version of the "Nerk Ember" as the augmet still knock down enemies and give Ember more time to deal damage. The only change in playstyle, again, is to get closer...

With all due my respect, this is nonsense. 
Please do run the builds with stock and high range and you will notice that enemies are able to outzone FQ even on current range, especially with the 5 enemy cap. Making the range lower and the cost higher does not benefit FQ builds at all since they don't care for power output.
 

 

9 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:

In conclusion, the changes are ment to give the rest of the squad a chance to do something while not nerfing Ember to the ground. You lose range and energy efficiancy in return for double the damage. So all the changes players will have to do with their playstyle is to get closer to enemeis like the rest of the squad... The energy efficiancy? Just keep track of it, Valkyr also have it and I can keep Hysteria on for ages...

In conclusion you keep on speaking about level 40 content. I don't.

I don't care for the ant stomper builds since I never ran them.  I don't compare invulnerability and high output (Hysteria) to damage that hits like wet noodles due to enemy Armor Scaling and 0 DR.

Please, everyone has an opinion, but If you think that the "ember must be balanced for star chart" opinion is the only one - see you after couple of weeks in the nerf Equinox topics.

[atejas]

Simplest solution for Ember is to make the Firequake augment not use the 'overheat' mechanic WoF is going to have. Maybe even nerf the damage if you want to 'balance' it, nobody uses it for that. Her 1-3 do need a lot of work though.

 

Next up could you guys please look at Nezha, Wukong and Vauban? They're all good-ish but could really stand to be improved. Vauban in particular has four whole useless deployables.

[Kazzpoco]

1 hour ago, NephalemUnlimited said:

They will not change theyr mind.Thats how DE roll and its mostly becouse of the comunity cryng aboit it beeing inbalanced and when they se how hard DE is nerfing it they come out again to complain about the nerf beeing to severe.Im accepting the fact that im losing my most used and favorite frame  out of this game like most of the players who love to nuke and constantly move around in order to kill the enemys.

so sad...

[robbybe01234]

Now that you guys have eyes on Ember, please find someway to get damage reduction in her kit.  

With the change to WoF we are getting less range over time.  This will force me to stay mobile which I don't mind.  However, it will also allow more enemies freedom to take pot shots at Ember as a greater number of enemies will be outside the field for a longer period of time.   A "shattershield" lite while at max channeling would be compensation for the increased incoming fire due to the reduced range. 

Or

A flame that would bypass armor by a set % while at max channeling alongside a new augment for FireBlast that blocks incoming bullets while inside the ring would be great!

To those that would think "this would be a straight upgrade augment", any build with my Ember really has all 8 slots taken. 

[BornWithTeeth]

5 minutes ago, Glavenusaur said:

And i said where exactly that people only play ember to steam roll the star chart? nor did i say monetization for DE is a small matter? why don't you stop embarrassing yourself and start reading what people actually say instead of straw manning them?

It is not necessary to strawman you on this issue. You are fractally wrong anyway. Functionally this is a nerf to Ember at high levels, not a buff, as Ember’s strength at those levels is in her CC, and this change drastically reduces the range at which she can apply it.

 

Now, it’s not the end of the world, as playing high levels with Ember required constant mobility anyway, but it’s still a stupid thing to do, with the range reduction. Enjoy seeing more Equinox on the starchart, but still almost never Ember in high levels anyway.

[(PSN)Dublincore]

This false dilemma “you’re either agree with me about the nerf or you don't understand it" must stop. In the past 24 hour i've seen a lot of threads like this.

I agree with FrostedMike and as he quite rightly said there are various aspects that we should take into account. 

 

[TinySuperSalad]

OP shouldn't be left our on his own, he will not be able to play the game pass Earth.

Edited February 3, 2018 by NZ_CodeBlue

[xXHobbitXx]

20 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:

- Flash Accelerant:
The augment give more damage output to both Ember and her allies... At the end, it's a more active Ember that use the fire resistence debuff to deal her damage.
The upcoming changes have no effect in Accelerant, only on WoF. So considering the changes... Just getting closer to enemies as the other builds?

i dont think you understand how flash accelerant mod works tbh, you dont gain any more damage output for embers world on fire from it, its all for teammates, they gain extra fire damage and casting speed, ember gets that from casting 3 as is, the augment does nothing for ember herself, just teamm8s

Edited February 3, 2018 by xXHobbitXx

[_Vortus_]

Without actual testing, how would you know?   You can't.   Different isn't always bad.   Time will tell.    Could be an Ash, could be an Oberon.

[Hypernaut1]

I'm not getting the connection between crushing enemies and restoring shields here? 

Fracturing Crush and this innate shield restore for crush should switch places. Make crush have innate enemy armor/shield reduction and make the augment grant shields and enemy root.

It also seems to overlap with her shield transference augment a bit. But I guess it gives us a way to get overshield against grineer and infested, which is great.  I still think that it sounds more like something that should be an augment to crush, while the Fracturing Crush sounds like something that should be in the base ability. 

[phoenix1992]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Dublincore said:

This false dilemma “you’re either agree with me about the nerf or you don't understand it" must stop. In the past 24 hour i've seen a lot of threads like this.

I agree with FrostedMike and as he quite rightly said there are various aspects that we should take into account. 

 

I am sorry mister Dublincore, I speak out of a lot of experience with Ember for the last 2 years and am point issues without entering wall of texts.
It is relatively easy to go into a rant about Armor Scaling, eximus units and AoE from enemies, but I assume that everyone is on the same page considering that.
Yet it seems like this is not the case.

 

5 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

Without actual testing, how would you know?   You can't.   Different isn't always bad.   Time will tell.    Could be an Ash, could be an Oberon.

While Reb is not the top player, she is knowledgeable and experienced enough. She did show us Ember with the changes.

Edited February 3, 2018 by phoenix1992

[stegmaier]

Its nice plan for Atlas and Zephyr.  a bit im sure for BANSHEE. 

Im not sure. sincerely not sure for Chroma and Ember. 
This plan simply will fires their jobs.  We'll dont use Chroma and Ember completely in any missions...

Reason of lacking diversity is not from warframes, but mission situations.

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Phyrak:

wings and claws

Sounds like a copy of space kitty Valkyr

[DreamsmithJane]

1 minute ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Banshee also effectively hits EVERY enemy on the map, and keeps them stunlocked while dealing crazy damage.

In its base form, not so much. It has more range than WoF, of course, but Banshee can't move while using it, so its actual effective range is not necessarily higher, and it definitely doesn't do nearly as much damage. Resonating Quake is another story. It is definitely a huge problem, which is exactly why the whole augment is being replaced. I was not implying that the cost should be the same. I was only pointing out that other frames get by with worse costs. In Banshee's case, it's currently quadruple the drain, for arguably less impact and more difficulty in collecting energy to maintain it.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

She can cast her power once in a defense and you'll never see a single enemy even leave their spawn room even at the highest levels provided by the star chart.  (Looking at you, Hydron farmers.) 

Yes, and this badly lengthens each wave after a very short time, because it stops actually killing enemies in a timely manner, which is why many players loathe Quake Banshees in Hydron. And again, that's Resonating Quake, which is a problem big enough to be outright removed. I just want to be clear on that. Normal Sound Quake is honestly pretty foolish and almost never worth using over just Silence and a gun. If you want to talk like "Banshee's a bigger problem", well, yes, and she's also getting a bigger change. I was not comparing WoF to the problematic, augmented version of Sound Quake.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

You are also assume we mod for 280% range.

Definitely not. I'm just pointing out that we can, which must be accounted for. Do I assert that 50% total range is absolutely the right final number? Well, no, no I don't. But a channeled ability that moves with you and allows other actions being able to reach over 40 meters and stay there is extreme. It means you can get 28.5 meters without Overextended. How far is that? Put Stretch on Harrow, and activate his Thurible, and you'll see a line marking a radius of 29 meters. Within that range, you will still have enough damage on such a build to dominate Hydron by walking around.

See, this is where I'm hung up. People are talking like DE just permanently cut the range in half, which tells me that they are walking around with WoF on all the time, and are assuming the first 5-15 seconds of channeling may as well not exist. That's silly, to me. If anything, the assumption DE seems to be making, that players will want to turn WoF off and on more often, should come with a reduction in activation cost. But DE doesn't want WoF blasting off at full range 100% of the time.

So my questions are these: is the activation cost the same? And does duration affect the delay before the ramp up and/or how long it takes to reach 100%?

[DroopingPuppy]

29 minutes ago, Slevin_no1 said:

first: with max range WOF is at 37,5m. after the time you have a 18,75m where WOF is aktive.  In this Range you should can get a few shots from lvl 40 enemies.

second: in this range your damage is double, so lvl 40 easily will be oneshot for the ember ulti.

That's far from the reality because World on Fire is about killing stuff or debuffer. Appling Overextended and reducing ability power seems not an option and in the reality Ember just put Stretch and have +45% ability range. If you want Ember as pure CC frame then it is weird, and even if you need to you will need more range, NOT more damage in exchange for shorter range.

 

Doubling the damage is only in effect if you ever hit it. And if you ever close to the enemy then either enemy knocks down your Ember or her melee weapon can end the enemy before WOF ever does anything. The sad truth is not only Ember can use the same melee weapon. Seriously, then what's the point to use Ember? There is nothing.

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by DroopingPuppy

[Hypernaut1]

I'm not too upset at the concept of it (need to play it still) but you make a good point. I think they should add at least another positive to WoF to compensate for it shrinking AND costing more. Maybe it could speed up too? Or acquire more targets? 

[LSG501]

10 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Seriously, if players using Quake Banshee or WoF Ember collaborated with their teammates instead of saying "well, you just have to deal with me; I'm in Public" these types of nerfs wouldn't be happening. Refusing to show consideration generates the complaints that lead to nerfs, so nobody should really be surprised at this point.

Novel idea, right? Not ruining someone else's game experience just because you can = less complaints = less nerfs.

You can't blame players for using what has been given to them, DE were the ones who added WOF and players used what has been given to them same with any other frame. 

Why should people who are using a frame EXACTLY as it was designed to do be forced into doing things differently (not saying afk is ok, I hate that as much as the next person) just because another person doesn't like it, there is no reason why the person who doesn't like it needs to stay in that mission, we have the option to abort and iirc many people are/were more than willing to do that with limbo when there was catabomb and even now with stasis.  Also on the few occasions I have seen a fully levelled ember or banshee is in the team on hydron etc we've all just got on with the job of killing the ones it can't get or misses while milking all the xp from banshee/ember, I can't say I've experienced the issue you're experiencing but then I only go there for levelling and well I have nothing to level now until I hit 700 days (sword and shield) and new content is added or returned to the game (need bo and wyrm)....

I have to ask though...do you have the same issue with (off the top of my head) mesa, equinox, spore saryn, octavia, speed nova, speed volt plus ignis wraith or similar because they can all 'take away your kills' on the starmap (to be fair anything can kill stuff on the starmap) because they can basically kill most of the enemies before you get to them.  Now with the nerf you'll be seeing them a lot more in all likelihood too because they'll become the new replacements. 

And while I agree that wof is annoying if you actually want to kill stuff on the star map the nerf isn't actually going to change that aspect of their kit, all players will do is reduce their damage and up their range to compensate, the energy draw is basically nothing to worry over, it will be the high level where it's going to suffer.  

The problem is that players in general hate the grind and boring aspects such as xp farming in the game so players come up with ways to do it as fast as possible, even more so when you have reached the top levels because well it's 'boring' and we've done it far too many times already.  Fix the grind element and I doubt we'd be spending so much time 'meta farming' or 'meta levelling'

Then you have the other aspect, if you start removing the 'kill' abilities from warframes, which is essentially the only way to solve the issue on the starmap, you're basically turning the game into a shoot and slash game and there are plenty of other games out there that in all honesty do that better than warframe.  A lot of players came to the game to because of the warframe abilities, not because you can shoot and melee enemies....

Edited February 3, 2018 by LSG501

[BornWithTeeth]

20 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:

You do know that she also deal double the damage over time? Right?

I understood from the thread that she will now scale better into the end game with more damage output but will not demolish everything so fast that not even Ember can get a glance of enemies.

Here are the changes:
- Increase damage output and energy reduction over time.
- Decrease range at the same amount of time.
- All changes are applied to WoF only.

Let check with the builds:
- The "Nerf Ember" as you called it:
As it is now, this build simply melt enemies at low - medium levels and struggle farther into the late game.
With the changes she still melt low - medium levels but doesn't have to struggle in the late game as she deal more damage. All Ember players need now is to get closer to the enemies.

- Firequake:
As it is now and I see it, It just give Ember more time to breath and deal her damage in the late game. Jsut batter version of the build above.
Considering the changes, it is still a better version of the "Nerk Ember" as the augmet still knock down enemies and give Ember more time to deal damage. The only change in playstyle, again, is to get closer...

- Flash Accelerant:
The augment give more damage output to both Ember and her allies... At the end, it's a more active Ember that use the fire resistence debuff to deal her damage.
The upcoming changes have no effect in Accelerant, only on WoF. So considering the changes... Just getting closer to enemies as the other builds?

In conclusion, the changes are ment to give the rest of the squad a chance to do something while not nerfing Ember to the ground. You lose range and energy efficiancy in return for double the damage. So all the changes players will have to do with their playstyle is to get closer to enemeis like the rest of the squad... The energy efficiancy? Just keep track of it, Valkyr also have it and I can keep Hysteria on for ages...

I’m sure that you’re a lovely chap and that you mean well...but this post is pure and utter nonsense. Insane armour scaling means that doubling WoF’s damage at the cost of more than halving its range (because of how the radius of a circle relates to the area of that circle, see?) will not in any way turn WoF into a scaling endgame ability for damage. Firequake and Flash Accelerant are how Ember deals out CC and enhanced damage, and Firequake’s effect just got nuked.

 

Now, it’s not the end of the world, Ember will still work up to Sortie level, but trying to call this anything other than a nerf is daft.

[Glavenusaur]

6 minutes ago, NZ_CodeBlue said:

So... OP likes to struggle in warframe. I really wonder which Warframe he doesn't like to play, or can't play. And which warframe he calls main.

A lot of people, even those who doesn't main Ember, use her for a quick in and out alerts. No one takes her to high level cause she's useless there and there are better warframes out.

If I have to guess, OP only played on a level that Ember is OP (below level 30).

I actually like to play my games with a little challenge instead of just sit there on auto pilot to grind like its a job, If you hate the grind so much that you want to just sit there and complete missions like a mindless zombie then be my guest, but then maybe warframe isn't really for you as the fun in the game is to grind for the stuff you want. Fortunately the developers agree with people like me who actually want to play the game and not use it as a screen saver... deal with it and git gud...

[Phyrak]

4 minutes ago, Dark_Roxas said:

Sounds like a copy of space kitty Valkyr

Aye

Maybe let him have his wings and buff for extra manuvourability plus the 1 buff mentioned earlier

Similar in mechanics, different in output