Here is why we dont need kuva endless to scale

[Sonicbullitt]

8 hours ago, zWhiteKz said:

1st Thanks [DE]Sheldon for impliment this mode it a good change of wind for us "Kuva farmer" to have a mission to stay in one place rather than just jump from node to node. Also DE already clear on the point kuva endless won't be scale due to this is not a mode to replace Flood whatsoever and we all know how bad the system "void key" is when talking about scaling reward *void key flash back intensify*. And i have high hope that DE will think of a mode in the future which we can challenge ourself rather than doing endure run and we all know endure run is not CHALLENGE u want to know why? it easy because we use "cheeze" tactic to do it ( using whip through wall, zenistar "spinning around", banshee spam sonar,....), that just fighting will the math of scaling and scaling in Warframe at this point is not a good system by far

So here is my math for endless kuva to back it up:

we all know that right now endless reward 200/min (each tower need 1 min to provide 200 kuva)

and siphon reward 550 - 700 (avg 625) flood reward 1100 - 1400 (avg 1250)

now let say in the perfect world we run siphon/flood mission with only 4 mins ( some can do faster than this and some can do slower than this and ofc we all know how long can assinate mission can be and also the fact that some planet make it hard to find kuva in aka CERES / ICE PLANET tileset but for the math we will say it 4 mins)

so the avg kuva u get per min is:

Siphon 625/4 = 156.25/min

Endless 200/min

Flood 1250/4 = 312.5/min

now we look back at endless and the kuva/min is 200/min which sit somewhat in middle between siphon and flood just like [DE]Sheldon said and this is good

also keep in mind that each hour we only have 1 flood and 5 siphon up at one time

after seeing this u will think "Huh endless is much more than siphon then i just gonna do endless than siphon then". This way of thinking is both right and wrong and here is why:

If taking in account of booster buff the kuva amount will be:

Siphon 156.25 x 2 = 312.5/min

Endless 200 x 2 = 400/min

Flood 312.5 x 2 = 625/min

and now with smeeta buff ( assuming u only get 1 stack of buff at a time ):

Siphon 312.5 x 2 = 625/min

Endless 400 x 2 = 800/min

Flood 625 x 2 = 1250/min

This math is both right and wrong and here is why: Remember this smeeta buff only last for 2 mins, now for 4 mins u will get 2500 kuva ( 625 x 4) from siphon with smeeta buff in the window of 120s when siphon is active and booster at the same time. If u want to get 2400 kuva ( (200 x4) x 3) from endless which gonna be 3 towers but each tower last 60s so u can only get 2 tower affect by buff ( assuming u active the tower that exact moment ) so u will only get ( (200x4) x2 + 400) = 2000 kuva and siphon can be done much faster and with less tough enemies like in endless kuva.

So in the end the kuva endless is working as intended and no scaling is needed because this is not a mode for scaling reward and not to replace flood/siphon by any mean. My only wish is for DE to increase the base from 200 to 225 or 250 or 200-250 each tower so the kuva/min sit more well in the middle of siphon/flood right now it just slightly better than siphon and not really worth for the trouble of protect tower + defense agaisnt dealy fortress enemies + always keep eye on LS meter while switching all LS tower to kuva harvest for max kuva/min gain. And my other idea is make every enemies in fortress drop 1-5 kuva on every mission except kuva endless so other node can be playable without worrying of min/max kuva gain ( this is just a wild idea, i dont do the math to check if this can be exploited or not).

Also i'm have run around 15-20 time of 20-mins kuva endless and the math check out with/without booster/smeeta buff. And i would love to hear u guys opinions about this matter and please be polite to each other and #NoScaling

 

 

Just stop it already, there is no logical reasoning as to why it shouldn't exist. We do not want infinite scaling, I doubt anyone wants something as ridiculous as that. We want scaling with an eventual cap, we want a reward for our effort and time put into the game, what is so wrong about that ? We do not want a replacement for the kuva siphons, but an alternative and supplementary option. What you and others seem to be taking away from this is that we want the endless missions to be superior and the definitive version to farming Kuva.

No, that is not what we want, what we want is for it to compliment the siphons, an alternative option to farming larger amounts over time, while the siphons reward a large amount not over time, but over a short burst of gameplay. Ideally the endless mission would reward more over time eventually surpassing the siphons , while the siphons reward more for shorter periods of game time.

This should be a win win situation, but it seems ignoramuses or selfish people cannot understand or refuse to understand this situation.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[Evanescent]

I'd like it to sit between normal siphon missions and Floods honestly. 

[Zhoyzu]

9 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

 

Wtf? You just said money being in a bank doesn't make sense anyway.

Except the kuva is collected off the fortress because its collecting some residue from warframe and tenno powers. this is the kuva. If our tenno and warframes havent been to the fortress why would there be residue there? There wouldnt, it would be on the other planets and nodes.

[Mr.SpookSpook]

Really? You wasted all this time with calculations starting off absolutely wrong. Life support spawns every 90 secs. Not 60. 

And its doubtful you can start a kuva extractions immediately every 90 secs... 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Mr.SpookSpook

[WhiteCr0w]

We don't need it to scale for the simple fact that it would break things. If you don't know what those things are, you aren't considering the bigger picture, which is what DE has done in reference to this, and why it isn't scaling in the first place. There's also the fact that it is designed to fit between a siphon and a flood. It's really that simple.

[This_Machine]

8 hours ago, Sonicbullitt said:

Just stop it already, there is no logical reasoning as to why it shouldn't exist.

The faster people get kuva the more watered down the riven market gets.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, This_Machine said:

The faster people get kuva the more watered down the riven market gets.

Nothing in this game should be balanced around trade chat.

[IceColdHawk]

3 minutes ago, This_Machine said:

The faster people get kuva the more watered down the riven market gets.

Thanks for naming another positive.

[Rustmonger42]

 I always have a booster on so now I can reroll any riven I have after 20 minutes in a trivial solo mission compared to a siphon and a flood. I don’t see the issue.

[KennBone]

the scaling it´s what most players are asking for.. a point to stay in mision for long time while reward increment with dificulty.. and with this great new kuva survival mode  DE have the chance to give the scaling misions with rewared compared as dificult.

[WhiteCr0w]

56 minutes ago, Rustmonger42 said:

 I always have a booster on so now I can reroll any riven I have after 20 minutes in a trivial solo mission compared to a siphon and a flood. I don’t see the issue.

Thank you for having a brain!

[DrBorris]

IMO, the point of Scaling Kuva is not as much for more reward as it is to reward endurance players. As it stands Kuva Survival is no "endurance" mode because the optimal way to play it is 20 min then restart.

 

And for everyone that does not want to stay more than 20 min, well, go play some Siphons. Kuva Survival is the once chance us endurance fans have had to have a mode that fit how we want to play and it has just turned into another spam mission.

 

Edit: IMO, a 20 min Kuva Survival should be inferior to running Siphons for 20 min. Then, after maybe 30 min it breaks even and starts to net positive into something between Siphons and Floods and cap out. I can't tell you had sad it makes me that I have not gotten one pub group to go past 20, in my eyes for that reason alone Kvua Survival is a failure, nothing to do with the amount of Kuva we get per mission.

Edited March 30, 2018 by DrBorris

[.Yes]

4 hours ago, Zhoyzu said:

Except the kuva is collected off the fortress because its collecting some residue from warframe and tenno powers. this is the kuva. If our tenno and warframes havent been to the fortress why would there be residue there? There wouldnt, it would be on the other planets and nodes.

where does the collected kuva go then? 

It's in the name mate, they collect kuva, it goes to the fortress, no point in arguing at this point

[AXCrusnik]

8 hours ago, Zhoyzu said:

Except the kuva is collected off the fortress because its collecting some residue from warframe and tenno powers. this is the kuva. If our tenno and warframes havent been to the fortress why would there be residue there? There wouldnt, it would be on the other planets and nodes.

So you're saying the grineer collect the kuva and then what? Destroy it on site? Do the queens leave the fortress and use it on the planets they collect it from? That sounds unlikely to me.

Edited March 31, 2018 by AXCrusnik

[Sonicbullitt]

5 hours ago, This_Machine said:

The faster people get kuva the more watered down the riven market gets.

Thing is its not meant to be faster per minute than the siphons, but evenetually over time the reward  surpases the kuva from the siphons as it should, that's the idea. That way players with less time to play still get a nice amount of kuva, while people with time and effort to spare get rewarded more for that effort put in. It only makes sense for more work and time put into work reward more. Imagine working over time without any form of extra compensation, does that sound fair to you ?

Even if it does reduce the riven costs,overall. How is that a bad thing ? If anything its a net positive. It just like the new arcane system, where due to more people running eidolons, the arcanes become more common, thus lowering prices all round, a net positive for just about all players but greedy scalpers. again anyone against such a change is either ignorant or selfish, perhaps even both.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[Unagi604]

No scaling is a wasted opportunity for a worthwhile challenge. Everyone just leaves at 20 minutes because that's where the currently escalating prizes plateau in their rotation. Without scaling, there's really no reason to keep going, as opposed to just restarting the run.

It's a nice break from running siphons, but the way it's being used, it's actually just another bland grind at end game, with no motivation for players to challenge themselves.

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, Unagi604 said:

No scaling is a wasted opportunity for a worthwhile challenge. Everyone just leaves at 20 minutes because that's where the currently escalating prizes plateau in their rotation. Without scaling, there's really no reason to keep going, as opposed to just restarting the run.

It's a nice break from running siphons, but the way it's being used, it's actually just another bland grind at end game, with no motivation for players to challenge themselves.

I don't get how people can say staying for only 20 and out is boring, and then think staying for 40 would be the solution....??? You still need to go through that 20 EVERY TIME.

Again, it seems like there is no motivation to truly spend 40 in survival unless it's a reward carrot dangled at the end. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Unagi604]

38 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You still need to go through that 20 EVERY TIME.

Point was those 20 minutes are meaningless ONLY in a 20 minute run, because they don't lead to anything. The difference is the same 20 minutes on an actual endurance run leads a tougher challenge, which really should have been the point of a survival endurance.

People are leaving an endurance challenge, not because they can't endure more, but because the don't care to endure more, and I think that defies the spirit of what survival was meant to be.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Unagi604

[Sonicbullitt]

41 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't get how people can say staying for only 20 and out is boring, and then think staying for 40 would be the solution....??? You still need to go through that 20 EVERY TIME.

Again, it seems like there is no motivation to truly spend 40 in survival unless it's a reward carrot dangled at the end. 

its boring because there is no challenge in it, its 20 minutes run and done no tests of your limits, of your min maxed warframe and weapons.  People need incentive, to stay on for longer and as it stands there is none, a lot of vets or people that simply want a challenge themselves are tired of this state of casual warframe, a gampelay style that is run in kill S#&$ for a few minutes and get out. Too much of the game is already like that.

[Hypernaut1]

25 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

its boring because there is no challenge in it, its 20 minutes run and done no tests of your limits, of your min maxed warframe and weapons.  People need incentive, to stay on for longer and as it stands there is none, a lot of vets or people that simply want a challenge themselves are tired of this state of casual warframe, a gampelay style that is run in kill S#&$ for a few minutes and get out. Too much of the game is already like that.

20 minutes is a long time for one mission. Id prefer the give vets nodes that start off with a higher enemy level and intensity.

Staying for a full 20 should be the challenge... Not having to wait until 40

Edited March 31, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[ThorienKELL]

Little bit of scaling wouldn't hurt anyone and would promote longer runs instead of just efficient "hit and run" tactic we saw on old index. New index isn't much better in that regard but it still saves time. 

But just don't make it too much, you always have to take into account maniacs which will stay there three hours using immortal builds. 

[Valiant]

Well yeah something does need to change and I imagine a reasonable buff to base reward would do that. It just needs to be worth it.

Would be nice if De tossed in the other 2 or 3 (i forget) survival rewards you get after certain periods, just for that extra bonus to balance out the increase in difficulty.

[fluffysnowcap]

On 3/30/2018 at 5:52 AM, zWhiteKz said:

Endless 200/min

WRONG! its 133.333/min

[zWhiteKz]

28 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

WRONG! its 133.333/min

i know it wrong but like i said before this is base on pure kuva gain per min, and also yes u can do a mission in just 2-4 min and ofc that doesnt count the load/extract time and how am i support to count the load/extract time if everyone if different? like i said this math is base on a perfect world where the calculation can be somewhat acceptable to give u guys the idea of how endless kuva right now is suppass siphon but not rewarding enough for us to run it. Like i explain below and if u guys want "real test" i sugguest u guys watch Rob from AGGP.

Edit: also dont ask DE for reward if u guys want to stay longer than x time just because u guys choose to stay long doesnt mean DE have to reward for ur choice of staying long and like [DE]Sheldon already said this is not a mode to replace flood and with the scaling everyone want it gonna suppass flood as some point and if even it doesnt suppass flood it just gonna make people have to stay for x time so they can get maximum reward which is very bad if someone in ur team like to left early hence create bad behaviours etc.

Edited March 31, 2018 by zWhiteKz

[fluffysnowcap]

23 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

Edit: also dont ask DE for reward if u guys want to stay longer than x time just because u guys choose to stay long doesnt mean DE have to reward for ur choice of staying long and like [DE]Sheldon already said this is not a mode to replace flood and with the scaling everyone want it gonna suppass flood as some point and if even it doesnt suppass flood it just gonna make people have to stay for x time so they can get maximum reward which is very bad if someone in ur team like to left early hence create bad behaviours etc.

You're hypothetical kuva limits fails to include the fact that it is buggy as all hell. In the 5 long runs iv done i have run in to issues with life support townsnot accepting kuva, people accidentally using them, kuva guardians spawning next to active kuva towers and one shotting them and so on. All of this gose feather in to reducing, kuva survival kuva per minute below the Maximum possible of 133.33 per minute; furthermore cementing the meta or 20 minute and repeat. So as a lot of people have been saying myself included, the arguably diminishing rewards are hardly worth the effort of staying.

So a potential remedy to the problem would be adding scalable rewards to endless mission creating a change in the meta that will justify staying longer and right now there is no goddamn reason to stay longer. 

Now to directly addressing your point, we are asking for scaling as now how it stands the endless Kuva is hardly endless, it might as well have a hard cap at 20 minutes. Because after a 20 minute run in a perfect world the absolute maximum of 11 (2,200Kuva) towers, that based apon the bugs and bad play i have expired is closer to 8 (1,600Kuva) towers resulting in aproximetly 80 Kuva per minute no loading time's or lost time just lost towers. Do you see the Point now?