[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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As a lover of my Melee build Saryn most of these changes are a gleaming beauty in the darkness... The only real fault I have is the completely damaging idea of removing Viral from Spores and swapping it with Miasma's Corrosive... The halved health from the spreading Viral proc was the main reason I loved her... Please find a way to retain it in her new kit as the Corrosive proc just won't stand up in late game for anything other than Grineer, which would sadly kill the main reason I bring my Saryn. The other changes seem fantastic and I'd love to see how the "Infinite" Spores duration works but the "scaling damage" aspects being tied to consistently keeping the same Spore "batch" running is a dead end for any content beyond survival missions as most "wave" based content or inconsistent spawns kills the Spores damage growth... Still looking forward to these changes and hopeful these suggestions are taken into consideration, thank you for your time and trying to make sure this game is ever growing...

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Can I get an augment that changes her spores back to viral? or maybe it's naturally viral as before, but introduce an augment that can change it to corrosive?

As for the voice... No offense to the AWESOME voice talent you guys employ, but I'm not sure I like the idea of the warframes having a voice at all... it helps to make them more of a machine.  I approve of Valkyr's screams, mostly because they do not seem human, but primal, and her specific story seems to allow for it. Just me.

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2 minutes ago, Dwolfknight said:

You know, the Saryn rework thread is there for this type of posts, no need to make a new one.

Considering the eh, static and lost posts in the Rework thread, it does stand to reason to make this one and simply link it to the main.

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1 minute ago, Urlan said:

Considering the eh, static and lost posts in the Rework thread, it does stand to reason to make this one and simply link it to the main.

That is an excellent point, added a link to main article to rework page.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 

the only change i do not like about this whole rework, this should stay as viral and MIASMA should be corrosive.

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Everything here looks great with two exceptions

1. Keep spores viral and keep miasma corrosive. The viral damage is much more useful all around than corrosive, since infested and corpus don't have much in the way of armor. The spreading toxin procs was cool, but if you're increasing spore damage, it's not necessary. Making them corrosive and Miasma your viral proc will make her more energy hungry than before as now you need to keep spamming your 4 to keep everything viral procced. Removing viral from spores also kills fun condition overload builds on her.

 

2. No voice. Warframes shouldn't have voices.

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uhm.......

just one question
Why?!

saryn is like one of the strongest warframes out there and she has an interesting and versatile kit
and she gets another full rework over Nova,Wukong,Ember,Chroma,Nezha and Vauban and probably many others with real issues and outdated kits and stats

I dont understand why shes getting one but oh well
the changes sound ok but again none of the abilities were bad before so eh...

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So, i already saw this rework coming the moment that Saryn was popular on Eso, but heres my opinion on the rework:

Spores:
So, it was changed from a "Half hp bars" to "No armor bars". on itself its better than current ones, but pointless if team has 4 cp, of its just 1 situation but nevertheless
Theres also this that its kinda unclear to me:

3 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick

So, if i tap the spore button on no enemy i destroy my map of spored enemies losing the sinergy with miasma ?

Mold:
No.
Everything was fine until the :

3 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

removing the synergy to cast Spores on Molt.

Scaling the mold, the speed boost, it was all fine, but that? no, You can say that no longer benefits "set it and forget it" play stiles, but hers my argument against it.
What if theres not enough enemies to spore ? What if i want my radius to be centered on a specific spot ?
It doesn't open new possibility, it takes them away.

Toxic Lash:
Buff to every weapon: Good
Increased duration: Good
Removed the 2 energy per spore poped: No
Saryn is still Energy hungry, like really energy hungry, Either way you put it, I will have to get mandatory mods to fix her energy. Either building her like a Rage Caster or a Efficiency Spammer. With the increased duration + the 2 energy per spore would give her some energy back to try to offset the usage that she has.

Miasma:
So we all remember Ember wof right ? we know why she was nerfed right ? To stop low lvl nuking.
Then why did you make something like this. Not only increasing the dmg but taking 2x dmg on spored enemies which are easly spread.
We are talking on ticking corrosive base 50% status chance per tick spores. on a 40m (range build) area, that can be nuked in seconds.
So we are nerfing a frame that used her range to cc in high lvls since it was her only option, and lets buff a frame that can nuke actual tile sets ._. Her old Miasma was fine it had synergy. Why messing more with it

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i only dislike the elemental swap. giving miasma a 100% armor strip over its duration would suffice. there are surely pros and cons to keeping it the way it is elements wise or changing it as in the dev workshop described.

i'd still see it positively. the direction is clearly a buff and new things usually scare a bit when u care lots about a particular frame for example.

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29 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

I'm massively pessimistic on implementation of sphore changes, we will get  a laughably nerfed version for sure - also why the Heck frames that are in way worse state aren't being addressed first?

My opinion is because of the Elite Onslaught,which nailed the spotlights on saryn, really i don't know about the others but in that mode when we're in the lvl 100's+ it stills felt i was playing starchart on Mars..wiping out corpuses and infested alike JUST with a gas ignis + spores ( let alone melee ) to the point sometimes i think the others are getting bored...and to make it quicker against grineers & corrupted melee toxic lash with the all known melee usage destroys them faster than anything else ,( even tho i had my fare share of fun popping critical gas statuses on headshot and spreading those toxin dots around with a gas vectis, let alone a gas lanka lmfao )...add a basically perma viral effect on everything to add insult to the already consistent injury she causes, i find myself casting spores really rarely because i and whoever is with me basically keep a non stop spores spreading cycle ( unless the map is so bugged that enemy spawns screw it for us ).... at some point the farther you go not even nuke trin nor equinox maim bursts can't match saryns effectiveness in that mode,The Minimal Efforts/ Kill Ratio she has is simply over the top and more efficient, and i think DE is giving her a Chroma treatement just like when they thought oneshotting the teralyst had become a little too much lol.

 

I agree with most of your perplexity but i'm also curious to see what's coming around

Edited by arm4geddon-117

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It's fun to see people saying she's fine. LMAO Ppl use 2 abilities and thats it. Stop watching your nose and open your eyes. She isnt played at all, people only play her to stand at the same spot pressing 1 key. She NEEDED a rework or a change in her kit. DE never like big AoE frame it's not new. It's not a rework about *nobody plays her* it's a rework because *Pressing 1 button and ignoring 2 abilities on your kit shouldnt*

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Overall I'm excited for all these changes, but I really want to see the proposed Spore buffs stay in their entirety. Something I don't think a lot of players understand is how good the swapping of viral and corrosive between Spore and Miasma. Having corrosive procs able to potentially proc many times is a HUGE buff, and viral only needs to proc once to get the effect. I will ask that if the spore spreading on death is problematic maybe have it at a reduced range, 25%-50%. Finally, the loss of the 2 energy on spore pop also seems to be an overreach imo. Once again, maybe reduce it to 1 energy? While Saryn has a potentially large energy pool energy eximus are still a big issue.

Thank you for working on this, and I'm excited to listen to the new SFX!

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I am very concerned about the sound changes. Adding more human elements to the sound feels wrong to me, it's hard for me to pinpoint the exact part I dislike however. I certainly hope it doesn't become a theme with upcoming frames/reworks.

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33 minutes ago, Feltal said:

I don't think 75 more armor is going to make you drop quick thinking.

I use Arcane Guardian with her now that that is actually good. 

Also keep in mind that with Steel Fiber, you're actually looking at a good jump of 157 armor, for a total of 630 on Saryn Prime.

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As much I like the idea of having corrosive damage on the spores, won't it make it too powerful? Saryn usually tops the damage stats with Viral, which deals low damage per tick, so I fear that stripping armor and dealing corrosive at the same time, not to mention the fact of the infinite duration and scaling with time, will make it far too powerful. Also, I'd like to see the rationality behind spores, which in theory spreads disease on the enemies, now corroding armor. I almost feel like spores should be her ultimate instead of miasma

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3 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores

Spores now have Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage!

E S C A L A T I N G Damage

2dd.jpg

Looks awesome. Please don't ruin it!

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As someone who avidly plays Saryn currently, I have my doubts about this rework.
Firstly, the stat changes are whatever. 75 additional armor doesn't make a significant difference in her survivability as she already doesn't really have room for steel fiber on most of her builds.

Spore
     Changing the damage type to corrosive seriously hurts her in any organized party that will be running CP, as she loses the massive 50% damage bonus toward flesh. It also makes her even worse for dealing with corpus than she already is. However by far the worst change is making her 1 detonate all spores she has active. I'm guessing this will reset your damage scaling forcing you to ramp again, meaning spore is basically not recastable if you actually want it to get any work done. Beyond that, there is no mention of the ability of her spores to spread toxin, so i worry that is either not getting fixed or going away completely.

Molt
     Now that her 1 detonates all active spores her 2 becomes even less useful as it is no longer a cheap way to break spores in an AoE, and you wouldn't want to do that in the first place because it will (most likely) reset your scaling damage. Unless this movement speed buff affects bullet jumps, which I highly doubt it will, it basically worthless, and molt will fall into only being used for Regenerative Molt and the occasional status cleanse. On keeping molt's usefulness, I would like so see the detonation action of her 1 removed and left solely to her 2, that way her 1 is still just a versatile as it is currently  and leaves her 2 with it's 2nd main use, along with the augment's healing.

Toxic Lash
     Making Toxic Lash affect guns is by far the best buff in this update, as I will no longer be forced to bring an Ignis/Plasmor/Pox in order to DPS properly without spamming Spores incessantly, but i think removing the energy regen is a bit uncalled for. I would rather like to see it reduced or limited to only melee weapons.

Miasma
     Now we get to the bad stuff. You guys have gone and nerfed this ability again, if i am reading this right. Going from 350 damage a tick to 500 damage at base is great, but currently it's damage is tripled by her other abilities instead of simply doubled, meaning you actually do slightly less DPS albeit for a longer duration. The longer duration means her 4's CC is no longer solid survivability as it is still not recastable and has had it's "cooldown" raised by over 60%. In addition, makling this ability viral and her spores corrosive pretty much removes her functionality as a discount Nova debuff, as you will not be keeping a Miasma debuff on every enemy radially like you will a spore debuff without a massive energy investment, and that's absolutely not going to be viable since they are removing her main form of energy regeneration. This problem could easily be fixed by making Miasma a persistent AoE instead of an instant DoT application in an AoE. Additionally, i hope you guys removed that Miasma detonates your Molt, or removed that your Molt detonates spores as you don't want your Miasma to break your spores if it's going to reset the scaling damage.

Overall, it seems like this rework actually breaks her synergy significantly rather than bringing her more together and as complicated as Saryn already is that is the last thing she needs.

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Seems like an amazing rework. Her stat changes are welcomed as she is very very squishy. The spore change seems amazing but to address any confusion about recasting spores to spread them and instead you detonate maybe add a charge for the detonation of spores? Molt is fine and the only problem I ever seemed to have with molt is it does not draw attention as intended and Saryn is almost always still priority target. Toxic Lash is an amazing change as having to have Saryn with a max range weapon to use an ability and insure survival was a little lack luster. Miasma change is amazing as you're then making choices on damage types between Corrosive and Viral making her useful in any scenario and allowing for a more diverse game style. All in all sounds amazing and can't wait till we see some footage. Great work DE.

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2 minutes ago, Jade-Lotus said:

Overall I'm excited for all these changes, but I really want to see the proposed Spore buffs stay in their entirety. Something I don't think a lot of players understand is how good the swapping of viral and corrosive between Spore and Miasma. Having corrosive procs able to potentially proc many times is a HUGE buff, and viral only needs to proc once to get the effect. I will ask that if the spore spreading on death is problematic maybe have it at a reduced range, 25%-50%. Finally, the loss of the 2 energy on spore pop also seems to be an overreach imo. Once again, maybe reduce it to 1 energy? While Saryn has a potentially large energy pool energy eximus are still a big issue.

Thank you for working on this, and I'm excited to listen to the new SFX!

Corrosive is permanent while Viral status needs to remain actively ticking, that's the basics. 

How is there any positive outcome knowing the basics of viral and corrosive. The most common sense approach would have been to allow Miasma strip armor, even then a complete redundancy since Mag, Frost, Nekros and Oberon can all do the same, not counting weapons. Removing armor shouldn't be a concern of a Warframe named "Saryn" but that's just, like, my opinion man.

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Initial reaction.

Spoiler

r9TptTb.gif



My feelings are super conflicted but mostly positive on this. The only thing in Saryn's kit that really ever bothered me was her relatively low movement speed, and miasma in its entirety, and always found her to be in a very good place after her first rework. I will say that most of these things in here are a overall buff to an already rather powerful frame, but uh... sure why not. There are some small things that might bug me (not in a "THIS WILL RUIN SARYN WAH!" kind of way).

3 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 

I'm a little apprehensive about this. It has a lot of potential, but at the same time I feel viral was a better status proc for it since it was relevant against all factions. However now that I've thought some more about it I'm gradually starting to like this idea since she still has a viral proc (100% at that) in her kit in the form of miasma, I'd like to see a demo reel of these in action before I come to a conclusion on how I feel about this

3 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

we’ve removed the 2 Energy restore on Spores burst by Toxic Lash.

I have never felt Saryn to be an "energy hungry" frame and always felt her to be really efficient when built right. I will miss this synergy though.

I would have rather had Saryn get a buff to her movement speed, than her base armor, but I'm not against an armor buff, I am SUPER CURIOUS about the sprint speed boost she's getting from molt though. What's its duration? How big is the boost? Is this effected by powerstrength?

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So far I love how she is being made into an even more massive damage dealer without being a "glass cannon". She has some beef to her with the armor, but I feel like giving her some way to gain health/armor and increase her survivability, like what Atlas can do. But I donno...I feel like with her being able to crank out this kind of damage is good enough.

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Interesting, but what if molt worked like the molt of the saryn specter in The Silver Grove, would add a more twisted theme to saryn.

Edit: To avoid anyone from having to search it up it’s the one that crawls around and attacks.

Edited by Rogue_Striker
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