Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

[UncaIroh]

"perplexing synergies" - this is a UI/information dissemination issue. Your synergies are clear, you just don't tell people well enough in-game. Fix the abilities menu and that should help a LOT. Heck a few simple lines in each power that reads "molt detonates for toxin damage and automatically procs toxin." and "Toxic Lash adds viral/toxin/whatever damage to your melee strikes and adds x% status chance" sends a clear message to anyone reading Miasma that you're supposed to use the other three powers BEFORE detonating miasma.

This applies not just to Saryn, this goes double for Limbo since he tends to drive people who don't know how to handle him crazy.

Spore detonation by activating power... can we have this as a charge ability? I do want to retain the ability to manually spread spores.

Will Molt's detonation damage also scale with its max hp? Should make things interesting.

Energy regen via toxic lash - restrict it to popping with melee, but don't take it out completely, should make for interesting gameplay choices.

Miasma - I rather liked the increased damage from when a target is affected by the two other powers (toxin/viral currently) please consider retaining status procs rather than having spores on for damage increase. It eliminates the old synergy where you're best having all the other three powers active before casting miasma, which I rather liked.

Edited May 11, 2018 by UncaIroh

[Cibyllae]

5 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores now have Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage! What exactly does that mean? Essentially, Spore duration is determined by the enemies affected. As long as enemies are dying to Spores, they will spread.  As an added bonus, the longer your Spores deal damage, the more your damage output will grow. 

5 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies. This makes it much easier to keep Spores active.    

• *Developer Note: We are particularly apprehensive about Spores behaving this way since we’ve paired it with an already experimental mechanic  - it is the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch.   

 

If spores do not behave in this way, how will they have infinite duration and escalating damage? If I'm understanding the interpretation of what is meant by escalating damage and infinite duration, more enemies with spores nets more duration and more duration nets higher damage output, which I'm assuming is referencing end game numbers? Will this understanding be as effective if enemies who are spored do not pass on spores when they die? Just looking for clarification.

 

EDIT: Really love the direction you're taking her in. I've got 52mil xp with Saryn and have done much play and testing as well as reading up on her spores. Its not a lot, but its enough to say I've used Saryn. I enjoy her as she is now and am filled with excitement about where you are bringing her.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Cibyllae

[o0Despair0o]

One of the reasons Valkyr became my main when I was new to the game was her voice. It gave her character.

 

Now with Saryn getting a voice as well, I believe I'm gonna have to wade through that pile of dusty Warframes in the back of my arsenal and get Saryn Prime out of there.

[Morthal]

6 minutes ago, Aeryes said:

In random quick matches it really doesn't matter what you run, you pretty much wont reach a point where its a big deal because you simply wont be in the mission long enough. Most sorties you wont even bother killing enemies unless its unavoidable.

As for Mag the armors stripping on her polarize is about as pathetic as Vaubans and I say that as a Mag main. It's without doubt the weakest part of her kit and doesn't scale well at all and that is why you still need CP with her ideally. Constant corrosive procs however, potentially 3+ per second if popping a spore also procs corrosive is going to be pretty fast stripping and on a much larger area than polarize at much less cost.

All I play is public matches and you couldnt be more wrong about mag's 2nd, especially when people failed to bring CP. Even then, Oberon, Frost or even Nekros can strip armor but none of them can spread viral across a large area instantly. That's Saryn and shouldn't change. Did anyone even watch the twitch gameplay on Mot??

Also, who just takes 'whatever' to Elite Onslaught, without being a complete troll? 8 zones of that BS is no joke if you aren't geared for it. All the more reason to bring CP and have a VIRAL Saryn help cut the HP in half >_< This is the real reason for her nerf.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Morthal
dude what

[DarthKadra]

6 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

With the new spreading nature of Spores, survivability of Molt, and the increase duration of Toxic Lash and Miasma, Saryn is no longer as Energy hungry as she used to be, so we’ve removed the 2 Energy restore on Spores burst by Toxic Lash.   

She is not energy hungry in the first place -  Spores you cast once in a blue moon on an enemy. Toxic Lash can take care of itself thanks to energy restore. Molt is useless outside of non-stop spamming Spores on it, but that type of one-button "gameplay" is not really the intended target of rework and, if anything, should be discouraged. Miasma is also nigh useless, because it deals no damage at higher levels and its stun is way too short. Hence while playing normally you are most of the time topped off on energy even with Primed Flow. 

The changes seem to be too intrusive and lack... harmony, for lack of a better word. What I propose.

Warframe Stat changes - implement planned changes. - For a DoT frame that cannot dispatch enemies quickly this slight increase in survivability is most welcome.

1st Spores: keep as it is now - because it works the same way for all factions, and it works well, turning it into an anti-armor ability will shift the focus of her most widely used ability towards one faction.

2nd Molt: add scaling mechanics and integrate the augment into the ability (could decrease the healing effect if it feels needed), remove ability to cast spores on it - integrating Regenerative Molt perfectly fits the idea of creating a distraction when hurt and regenerating after shedding molt and won't be overpowered because of how many healing options are currently available (warfame arcanes, operator arcanes, sentinel and companion healing, healing pads, focus school healing). It will make a very nice and long due QoL improvement and add to the ability's value and versatility, because it feels like distraction alone falls short, especially after removing spore interaction. (The augment could be reworked to provide some kind of boost to the explosion or leaving a damaging area akin to the Toxic Lash augment, for example).

3rd Toxic Lash: allow to be used on any weapons, increased duration, remove energy restore, no 2x melee damage, no blocking mechanics - instead add moderate damage reduction while melee is equipped. - This will eliminate the necessity to build at least one weapon for Toxin / Gas, add survivability needed for melee play without the clunkiness of blocking mechanics (if toggled - the block resets after every bullet jump=all the time, unless holding a button throughout the whole mission=usability disaster), 2x damage would be OP - Saryn can already benefit from increased melee damage through Condition Overload because she is spreading status effects. 

4th Miasma - keep corrosive damage type, increase damage and duration as planned, add corrosive procs on ticks - This will allow you to remove armor and thus help retain the ability's value after its damage becomes too low to kill anything. A focused ability to be used on strong targets with a lot of armor much better fits the purpose of an ultimate ability than a viral proc.

Thank you for taking your time to read this! I hope you will find at least some of these ideas insightful.

Edited May 11, 2018 by DarthKadra

[Ozamchist]

Highest energy pool in the game tied with volt prime.
Won't have to cast as much with new rework.
Actually has rather substantial health and armor.
Rage and hunter's adrenaline exist.
"ShE'S goINg tO hAVe eNErGy iSsUes!"

I don't.
What even.
Actually wait I was here for the last rework I should have expected this from some of you.

Edited May 10, 2018 by TermiteFrame

[Aeryes]

Just now, Morthal said:

All I play is public matches and you couldnt be more wrong about mag's 2nd, especially when people failed to bring CP. Even then, Oberon, Frost or even Nekros can strip armor but none of them can spread viral across a large area instantly. That's Saryn and shouldn't change. Did anyone even watch the twitch gameplay on Mot??

No I haven't watched the gameplay yet but you are wrong about mag. Her armor stripping is fine against enemies which don't matter. Against any meaningful high level enemy the armor stripping is not good. Saryn can still spread viral over a large area. That plus decent armor stripping on a massive area plus scaling damage. Something is seriously messed up in their calculations if that doesn't end up being a huge buff.

[Lorechill]

1 hour ago, TermiteFrame said:

No no, Loki should take his decoy's damage instead, as a way of challenging him and strengthening his resolve.

Loki's decoy should have an audio yelling, "Are you ever not going to fall for that?!" every minute as an added lure to the gun shot sounds. Sound is affected by ranged mods. Voiced of course by [DE]Pablo

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

Can anyone confirm that Toxin spreads too when you have Toxic Lash active and combine It with corrosive? I didn’t see any Toxin dot along with corrosive in today’s demo.

Edited May 10, 2018 by (XB1)Cash201293

[Tozai]

And here I didn't even know saryn had a corrosive proc.  Still think saryn should get poison immunity

[purdo84]

So wait... this means you can only CAST spores ONCE on ONE target?

If you cast it again the spore will explode and deal a Corrosive proc?

If The only way to spread Spores is to kill the enemy you cast it on wont this mean you will only have to cast it once at the very start of a mission?

So long as the enemies die, Spores will spread, and if you kill quick enough and have some duration mods you may never have to cast it again in that mission?

What is happening to enemies under the effect of Spores before it is detonated? Do they still suffer Toxin DoT?

Trying to fathom how these changes are going to play. I'm a toxic lash Saryn fan. I like running around and casting spores directly on enemies and meleeing them down. I do use the molt turret on small tile defense missions and occasionally when camping out early on in a long survival. But even utilising this play style I still use all four of her abilities since I prefer to pop with a melee weapon and Miasma's weak CC is still enough to clear out the defense target if it gets overrun. 

Like many have already said in this topic, seems like an uneccessary look in while there are other, untouched frames that seriously need more attention. 

[Aeryes]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Cash201293 said:

Can anyone confirm that Toxin spreads too when you have Toxic Lash active and combine It with corrosive. I didn’t see any Toxin dot along with corrosive in today’s demo.

Doesn't look like the toxin spreads but its still a guaranteed proc on lash which is a big deal now it effects all weapon types. That plus the spore scaling should more than make up for it especially vs grineer.

[ThePredicament]

First off, thank you for reverting that wholly unnecessary EHP nerf during the first round of changes.

Corrosive on spores... what? While, yes, if every tick can strip armor, that still only makes it useful against armored enemies, which is about 35 to 40% of all the factions. Viral was pretty much an MPrime alternative that has the POTENTIAL to spread further and stay longer but it didn't have the near stop movement it has.

Molt changes are nice but regen would have been the perfect for utility without breaking balance and giving the augment more of a change, such as boosting Saryn a certain amount of meters based on what direction is being used or a chance to charm enemies in the explosion.

Toxic Lash name should be changed again. While the effect of the changes still need to be tested out,

Miasma change is funky. While it's nice to be able to spread corrosive and then viral using a one-two combo, it is FORCIBLY needed to be cast to get the same effect that we have today and wasn't the point of the changes to have some proper and natural flow?

[0asu]

i love meta nerfs

[Kalvorax]

50 minutes ago, (XB1)Cash201293 said:

I kinda don’t like corrosive replacing viral. Something about spreading Viral was so satisfiying. But corrosive do have some use against infested but only against the heavier units. But I rather spread viral against infested instead of corrosive. 

as extra damage yes...but as status....which IS late-game...no...corrosive is only good against a single faction..viral is good no matter the faction

Edited May 11, 2018 by Kalvorax

[Mach25]

[deleted]

Edited May 11, 2018 by Mach25

[Vesiga]

This sounds like a really good change.

Was a bit worried when I saw spores was being taken off of viral until I read Miasma will be viral, which I can picture being a better change.  
If its a 50% chance for spores to proc corrosive things should hit low armor to no armor very reliably while miasma finishes them off with viral and DoT. 

I'm picturing her being used in Elite VO. 

I've loved Saryn ever since she came out, even with every change to her. Adapting to her new ways to play. She's been easy to use in high level gameplay, but some frames do excel past what she can do. So this [should] bump her up to be a pick for harder stuff.

[FirstAidKittens]

I'm personally iffy about the damage type swaps between Spores and Miasma; it would make more sense to me to keep Spores as a tool for spreading viral, even if that means it dealing less base damage to compensate, and then having Miasma deal guaranteed corrosive procs for massive armor stripping. Corrosive Spores feels like limiting the utility of the ability exclusively to Grineer and making them weaker against Corpus and Infested, while Miasma's smaller range would make it less effective at actually spreading viral.

I also feel like Miasma would benefit from a lingering AoE, so that enemies entering the area after cast will be affected by the remaining procs and damage ticks, as well as having its stun last the full duration of the ability rather than the portion it does now, even if that stun can't be refreshed. Saryn's always been lacking a semi-reliable hard CC ability.

I'm hoping the synergy between Spores spreading Viral/Toxin/Corrosive procs when burst by them still remains, as well as detonating Molt with Miasma.

Aside from my minor gripes with the above, all the changes sound really positive and I'm eager to see how she turns out.

Also, being able to recast Toxic Lash while it's active to refresh the duration would be great QoL, please and thank you.

(Also also, please make Saryn's "voice" sound hissy and inhuman, pretty please with extra please.) ❤️

[BalaDeSilver]

So, can you please add either CC or invisibility to to Molt? It's quite annoying to use Molt defensively and die the next second because a bombard had already shot me and the missile is locked on me or from cc any other unit dealt me.

Regenerative Molt does not scale, which is your intention here, so here are some suggestions:

-Regenerative Molt heal you by a % of damage absorbed in the invulnerability phase of the Molt;

-Molt makes me invisible for a couple of seconds on cast, with or without the augment;

-Molt stuns the enemies surrounding me, on top of the speed boost.

 

Since you can no longer use Molt offensively, why not buff the survivability of Saryn (aside from the armor buff)? I actually like to play melee Saryn, but she is not tanky enough to keep up with high level enemies solo, so please improve her natural healing. ❤️

But the changes were amazing, overall, can't wait to play Saryn again.

[Shadedraxe]

5 hours ago, Touch_Fluffy_Tail said:

so now her spores will do nothing on corpus great

Many of the robotics have armor though, most notably the bursas. Also Having multiple viral procs on one target made little sense in the first place. You can now just use one cast of her ult to half all enemy health in range anyway instead of spam the spore button. Plus toxic lash will be the corpus killer, putting toxic on everything, even aoe weapons.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Shadedraxe

[WrathOfKarma]

These changes seem great! It'll be interesting to see how she plays out when these changes go live. However...

...may I present the subject of looking into Fixing Zephyr's Rework as well?

[Evhel]

Some things sound good, others less so.

Really concerned about the spores, and how they will propagate now. Seems a bit too hard now, especially at high level.

And not sure about the corr-viral swap. ONLY lore-wise i felt like viral was the best option. Infection lady, and so on. Feel like she is losing a bit of her identity here.

The rest sounds good, tho!

[Squalobo]

As a new Saryn player, these changes are actually pretty exciting. I always did feel like something was off about her abilities, but never saw what it was. That infinite duration to spores though, seems pretty OP. I can see why that would be changed.

Can't wait to hear Saryn's new "voice"

Edited May 11, 2018 by Squalobo

[Cibyllae]

Everyone keeps saying that viral is better because its effective against other factions, but lets not forget that the only faction that matters is grineer. Kuva Survivals and Onslaught modes, which have the only potential for needing such high damage output, as well as Hydron or Beherhynia, having corrosive over viral is better in all these situations because everything else dies to primary, secondary, and lets not forget memeing strike on melee. If spores still create toxin procs upon hitting an enemy if popped on an enemy with toxin procs, we'll see casting builds for saryn that are leagues above current casting builds. If not, everything about melee saryn is buffed, add in the ability to strip armor and memeing strike Saryn is going to be even more powerful.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

11 minutes ago, Aeryes said:

Doesn't look like the toxin spreads but its still a guaranteed proc on lash which is a big deal now it effects all weapon types. That plus the spore scaling should more than make up for it especially vs grineer.

That really sucks. Really wished Toxin spread too. Didn’t need to have infinite duration but having more than one Toxin dot and being able to apply It multiple times & having It spread would destroy the corpus.