Melee: Present and Future goals!

[Slimspadey101]

2 hours ago, Luka-Song said:

There wouldn't be so many strawmen if DE just updated this bloody thread already. All we can do is speculate until we learn more about the system, which appearently will be on release.

Anyways, the complaint is that they're equaling out the stances on the lowest denominator, with only 2 combos and a standalone move, while currently some stances have up to 5 combos. Even if this does add fluidity, it'd make dedicated melee incredibly repetitive as you'd be spamming the same few moves over and over. Rather than cutting down on combos, they should make currently existing combos more accessible, and expand on the simpler stances who only have one or two combos.

🙂 Thanks I can understand this. My only issue with this argument is that elaborate and/or widely varying combos inevitably create a disparity in effectiveness between them; which in turn leads to 1 or more of those combos being essentially pointless to pursue. If you have 5 combos what are the chances that you will find a good reason to use all of them when 2 or 3 of them are much more effective because of their effects or their accessibility or a combination of both. It just seems to me like it would require unnecessary effort on DE's part for little return overall. Also it just doesn't fit the games archetype in my opinion.

Sure, some people will have fun with this kind of complexity but at what cost to the (likely) vast majority who couldn't care less. We are talking about development time that could be spend streamlining a system that's satisfying for everyone most of the time. Like maybe people who play a lot and exclusively use melee will get bored of it faster, but lets face it, those people are probably super niche. These are the people who use comparison between Warframe and the new Spiderman or Batman game. Just go play those games once you get bored of Warframe my dudes. I mean whats the harm in something like that really? Warframe isn't going to fill literally every aspect of our gaming desires. Variety is the spice of life as they say. Plus, lets be real Steve is all about those space memes. The saved dev time could be spent making Archwing melee interesting.

[Luka-Song]

11 minutes ago, Slimspadey101 said:

🙂 Thanks I can understand this. My only issue with this argument is that elaborate and/or widely varying combos inevitably create a disparity in effectiveness between them; which in turn leads to 1 or more of those combos being essentially pointless to pursue. If you have 5 combos what are the chances that you will find a good reason to use all of them when 2 or 3 of them are much more effective because of their effects or their accessibility or a combination of both. It just seems to me like it would require unnecessary effort on DE's part for little return overall. Also it just doesn't fit the games archetype in my opinion.

Sure, some people will have fun with this kind of complexity but at what cost to the (likely) vast majority who couldn't care less. We are talking about development time that could be spend streamlining a system that's satisfying for everyone most of the time. Like maybe people who play a lot and exclusively use melee will get bored of it faster, but lets face it, those people are probably super niche. These are the people who use comparison between Warframe and the new Spiderman or Batman game. Just go play those games once you get bored of Warframe my dudes. I mean whats the harm in something like that really? Warframe isn't going to fill literally every aspect of our gaming desires. Variety is the spice of life as they say. Plus, lets be real Steve is all about those space memes. The saved dev time could be spent making Archwing melee interesting.

That's the thing though, they want melee 3.0 to make melee focus not niche, and a viable and fun option. Warframe has always been about filling multiple niches, being a mix of shooter, rpg, hack and slash, stealth play, space dogfighting and more.

Regarding combo effectiveness that's easily fixed by giving different combos different uses. One combo could be a gap closer, another could have a guaranteed slash proc, another could deal double damage, another could end in a slam attack/knockback for CC. That's already the case for some stances. The big problem is the input commands are incredibly inconvenient, particularly when paired with attack speed bonuses and unbalanced mods like maiming strike.

Honestly, people who don't care about melee most likely don't care about the melee rework either, so catering the rework for them is a mistake imo, this update should aim towards people curious or interested in melee.

[Slimspadey101]

18 minutes ago, Luka-Song said:

That's the thing though, they want melee 3.0 to make melee focus not niche, and a viable and fun option. Warframe has always been about filling multiple niches, being a mix of shooter, rpg, hack and slash, stealth play, space dogfighting and more.

Regarding combo effectiveness that's easily fixed by giving different combos different uses. One combo could be a gap closer, another could have a guaranteed slash proc, another could deal double damage, another could end in a slam attack/knockback for CC. That's already the case for some stances. The big problem is the input commands are incredibly inconvenient, particularly when paired with attack speed bonuses and unbalanced mods like maiming strike.

Honestly, people who don't care about melee most likely don't care about the melee rework either, so catering the rework for them is a mistake imo, this update should aim towards people curious or interested in melee.

Okay I have to concede the part about Warframe in general not filling multiple niches you are definitely right and I think I was too general with my statement. On the topic of stances though I still can't get on board with them having a bunch of different combos. To me it seems more reasonable to attribute those effects, status/damage/slam etc, to the different stances rather than cramming them all into every stance. Isn't that part of what gives the current stances weight? I'm honestly not sure about that. Maybe have one stance provide a slam and a damage effect while the other features a slam and a status effect combo etc. Just take the more desired effect, like damage, make that universal and go from there. I recognize style is big part of why people choose stances as well so I guess there could end up being cases where someone likes the style but not the effects, but idk I haven't thought this out to its end really.

[(PSN)azul86sapphire]

1 hour ago, Slimspadey101 said:

Like maybe people who play a lot and exclusively use melee will get bored of it faster, but lets face it, those people are probably super niche. These are the people who use comparison between Warframe and the new Spiderman or Batman game. Just go play those games once you get bored of Warframe my dudes. I mean whats the harm in something like that really?

I imagine this is a plug at one of my comments.

I do play Batman and Spiderman.  And I love those games.  But I also love Warframe.  I wouldn't be here after 4 years if I did not.  And I am a melee user.  Heavily.  So yes, I am going to speak up when a system I love about the game threatens a game I have enjoyed spending my time on.

1 hour ago, Luka-Song said:

Honestly, people who don't care about melee most likely don't care about the melee rework either, so catering the rework for them is a mistake imo, this update should aim towards people curious or interested in melee.

This.  This is what is going to break the system.  Changing a system to accommodate people who do not use it is not the way to go, if you refuse to listen to the people who do use it.  If the Melee 3.0 is not effective for endurance or destroys the fun factor the existing Melee population, you lose your players.  Likewise you may encourage non Melee players to try it, but if they love their guns and powers more, they are not going to stick with Melee either.  An entire destruction of a system in an attempt to rework it.

What happened when they tried the UI changes to Console?  The reaction was immediate.  They had to send out hotfixes the same day because they removed functions designed to controller support in favor of a "mouse" style.  Yes, we still have he new UI, but they had to revert a number of that functionality back for controller support, because the community had been calling out what wasn't working.

The Melee commumity is trying to do that now.

[Slimspadey101]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

I imagine this is a plug at one of my comments.

Probably. I'm sorry about that I just wanted to trigger the right people in order to get some more input. Now I wait for more updates from DE.

[Luka-Song]

2 hours ago, Slimspadey101 said:

Okay I have to concede the part about Warframe in general not filling multiple niches you are definitely right and I think I was too general with my statement. On the topic of stances though I still can't get on board with them having a bunch of different combos. To me it seems more reasonable to attribute those effects, status/damage/slam etc, to the different stances rather than cramming them all into every stance. Isn't that part of what gives the current stances weight? I'm honestly not sure about that. Maybe have one stance provide a slam and a damage effect while the other features a slam and a status effect combo etc. Just take the more desired effect, like damage, make that universal and go from there. I recognize style is big part of why people choose stances as well so I guess there could end up being cases where someone likes the style but not the effects, but idk I haven't thought this out to its end really.

You do have a point. Though I've been toying with an idea today that could address that. As it stands melee 3.0 has two long-string combos depending on movement: forward or standing still.

It'd be neat to take it a step further and instead of making predetermined long combos, they'd make short combos or even standalone moves that change depending on directional input (left right forward backwards or standing still). Players would weave these moves/short combos together for different effects, thus making their own custom combos, and stances remain for stylistic effects or to define the general gameplay of the weapon (for example, nikana blind justice has strong and fast short range moves, while decisive judgement has long range strong one hitters and tranquil cleave has long range fast multi hitters).

Easy to learn and reproduce, and provides a lot more player-side interaction, while still being viable.

[(PSN)RenxHoshigaki]

Melee Stance Combos as they are I liked (for the most part). Here is why,

When encountering a challenging combo (many of the pause combos for heavy blades and scythes in particular), I actually had to break away from the mindless spam attack mentality and try to master something new. It made it fun and made combat enjoyable. Part of learning a weapon is to learn its various combos and it was always fun when a new stance was released, to learn its combos and its utility. Shooting and jumping around is quite mindless to be honest... Its nice to have some finesse and somewhat of a check in skill. The only combos that I feel were unnecessary were those requiring a backwards input. If I am fighting with melee, why would I want to move away from the enemy knowing that range is already an issue with the hitbox of flying and crouched enemies... 

Now I read someone make a comment saying well go play "spiderman" or "batman" if you are bored and want some complexity or whatever... But cant someone else say if you want to play mindless shooting fodder go play "COD"?

Warframe is Warframe because it allowed people from various gaming backgrounds to adapt to a system that tries to strike a balance between both. I feel however, that balance cant be achieve simply by looking at complexity... For example, why does no one use dual daggers (it's a problem), why does no one use one particular stance over another? The answer is simple, they ones people don't use are boring, low damage, or have no utility. The same is true for certain issues which DE has attempted to address but I feel have done so the wrong way...

"Spin to win is NOT fun", but here is a new frame who has a fourth ability which is literally that which we deemed as not being fun...

Maiming strike reinforces this behavior "oh lets nerf it". If you take away something relied upon something else will take its place.

Instead DE should focus on making other things just as viable.. Ask the question of "WHY" are players doing this and "HOW" to fix it. I'm sick of all of this nerfing just because of "some" players. There will always be those who will find some exploit. But don't punish the general public because of it... (also spin to win initially was for damage due to crappy weapon IPS, hint hint....) 

Sorry for the rant, but surely I can't be the only one seeing this over the years....

[Kainosh]

20 часов назад, (PS4)RenxHoshigaki сказал:

I actually had to break away from the mindless spam attack mentality and try to master something new. It made it fun and made combat enjoyable

Agree. I love to master combos too.   Combos we currently have are just too long and most of them have wonky "pause windows" that are very hard to catch. Even skilled players might have trouble triggering certain combos because they are not polished properly.  

We now have a way to cancel combo.  So its safe to make combo windows (pauses between attacks) longer.  Each attack must be properly separated.

Melee should be clear and responsive, with each attack being performed intentionally by the Player.  Not some random left stick twirling and mashing of Attack button.

23 часа назад, Luka-Song сказал:

It'd be neat to take it a step further and instead of making predetermined long combos, they'd make short combos or even standalone moves that change depending on directional input (left right forward backwards or standing still)

 That, but without sideways movement involved.   I experienced this in Warfame (some combos have sideways trigger) and Elder scrolls.  Its horrible.  NONE of decent slashers i played used sideways movement for combos. DMC series (i skipped 1 and 2), Bayonetta, Darksiders, Killer is Dead, PoP, MGR, GoW series.... None of these used sideways movement for combos...

 Movement in Warframe is even more important than in those slashers...because enemies have guns. If we use Movement buttons for Melee combos.... Movement will impair Melee, and Melee will impair movement.   And if you strafin left, you will have to stop and change direction for a different combo.  Thats not how good melee looks like.

 

 I agree about "standalone moves".   

We already have some (slam, slide and such). But Wall attack need serious work while  Air kick need a bit more base damage and should be affected by Bullet jump damage mods.

Would be nice to have Gunfire and Slashing combos separated for gunblades. Coz gunfire flings enemies away...it situational.  I would just...have gunfire on a separate button and it should function like normal guns. Without any fancy moves and such. You just aim and shoot.  

Like "alt fire" on rifles.  You decide when to use that "secondary fire". Not "predetermined combo animation". 

[Luka-Song]

6 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Would be nice to have Gunfire and Slashing combos separated for gunblades. Coz gunfire flings enemies away...it situational.  I would just...have gunfire on a separate button and it should function like normal guns. Without any fancy moves and such. You just aim and shoot.

I might be wrong, but isn't the "gunfire flings enemies" a redeemer only thing? I don't think the sarpa flings enemies.

[Kainosh]

9 часов назад, Luka-Song сказал:

sarpa flings enemies

Every gunblade creates "muzzle-blast" when fired.  That blast will ragdoll nearby enemies.    I use only Sarpa, and it flings enemies away from melee range too much. 

Using it to actually cut anything is pain, because shots occur during combos...and enemies either fly away, or fall down and interrupt your combo with Finisher promp.

 

If only we had 2 buttons for melee. Could use one for cuts, and another for shooting.   I would even sacrifice ability to block for that.  I barely even need it when i play with gunblade...coz you can just shoot em...or roll.  Stances can also be altered with that in mind.  So that Gap closer is not on "Block + melee" but on "W + melee".  No big deal. 

 

 

 

[Luka-Song]

4 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Every gunblade creates "muzzle-blast" when fired.  That blast will ragdoll nearby enemies.    I use only Sarpa, If only we had 2 buttons for melee. Could use one for cuts, and another for shooting.   I would even sacrifice ability to block for that.  I barely even need it when i play with gunblade...coz you can just shoot em...or roll.  Stances can also be altered with that in mind.  So that Gap closer is not on "Block + melee" but on "W + melee".  No big deal.

It'd be neat if the shooting mechanic took the place of gapclosing (why would you gapclose with a gun anyway, right?). Taking block away from a weapon would be huge, considering in melee 3.0 blocking builds up combo counter, removing the gapclose though would give a fun advantage/disadvantage game, without sacrifcing buttons.

[(PSN)azul86sapphire]

53 minutes ago, Luka-Song said:

Taking block away from a weapon would be huge, considering in melee 3.0 blocking builds up combo counter,

DE making it so blocking building up the combo counter is something that makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.  When you are in a survival, and kills matter to maintain life support, who is going to stand around blocking to re-build up the combo counter (i.e. after a heavy attack)? That is time lost.  Ineffective, slow, and a complete waste of time.

[Kainosh]

7 minutes ago, Luka-Song said:

Taking block away from a weapon would be huge, considering in melee 3.0 blocking builds up combo counter

Shooting is an attack and also generates combo counter.  And if they make so that every pellet were counted as a hit, combo counter would increase at approximately same speed as if you were blocking.  

So no...its not huge. Just different.  Would add to "logic" also.  We do not block with our guns, yeah? And gunblades are mostly guns...with a blade attached.  Makes sense to me.

Its just my preference tho....I dont see a Gunblade as a defensive weapon. Blocking with it is a waste of time. Better to shoot things and ramp up that combo counter than to block and wait for them to shoot you.  Same goes for Glaives.  Most of the time they fly somwhere...so i do not block with them at all. Its a throw and dodge weapon.

 

....Now that i think about it....What if They gonna use Combo counter as "ammo" for shooting?  They did mention that "charged attack" will use Counter....And shooting is a charged attack outside of combos...   Thinking about it is so pointless.....I will just wait silently. 

[Xolgys]

dear DE, please dont make the mistake of limiting +range only to heavy attacks...that forces people to opt for heavy attacks if they ever want to have better range on melee which narrows build choice/diversity and also makes melee as a whole worse. there are people who do not want to go for heavy optimized builds surely just as there are people who do not play spin2win or combo counter builds. limiting range to heavy only also doesnt solve the spin2win "issue", neither the general range on some melee weapons. ur just forcing players into one direction indirectly which is totally the wrong way. if anything there should be a general +range mod, reach/primed reach which we currently have and another one specifically for heavy attacks only, which would mean we could opt for heavy attacks +range wise and still have +range on normal attacks too.

[KennBone]

will be great if DEV share some short videos abouth some diferents weapons in diferents stances and their  kind of atacks, charged, combo, speed  etc so ppl can make a better idea how will work and disccus abouth any solid content ( atm it´s only theory talk )

[Tubsie]

Guess I'll drop in my 5 cents as well to the sea of opinions.

In the last dev-stream, Rebecca demoed the melee 3.0 and how you could quickly change to melee in the air for example. Does this mean that when we change to full melee in 3.0, we will no longer get the cool equip animation? I at least would prefer the style factor of actually seeing my warframe equip the melee, than take the 2 seconds or so saved time for effectiveness factor. We're already efficient at killing the enemies with all sorts of different ways...doubt you need to shoot, melee, shoot etc. It kind of looked silly. Unless of course it was the quick melee only...I just hope that the equip animation will still be there. 😃

Oh...and please...get rid of the completely stupid reach of whip weapons (among others) with primed reach mod. If a melee weapon kills everything in a room within 30+ meters, it's no longer a melee and it's even worse than coptering was. Thanks.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, davej83 said:

will be great if DEV share some short videos abouth some diferents weapons in diferents stances and their  kind of atacks, charged, combo, speed  etc so ppl can make a better idea how will work and disccus abouth any solid content ( atm it´s only theory talk )

This would mean that individual weapon types have more things distinguishing them.

PLEASE on both accounts.

[FreeWilliam]

I'll be honest, I've read this whole thread and watched every devstream and I'm STILL seeing like three completely different ways this could work out.

@[DE]Rebecca, would you mind charging into a big swarm of infested with a medium range and good speed and show us how it works on groups?  Killing enemies one at a time just isn't anything like the Warframe I experience (or am likely to enjoy unless we get a lot of VERY strong mobs).  

I think that would help, I'm still worried we're not all having the same conversation.

 

[Kainosh]

12 hours ago, Tubsie said:

I at least would prefer the style factor of actually seeing my warframe equip the melee

......This was discussed already.  And we already found perfect solution for both.  Instant swaps with full swap animations still present if you do not interrupt them by attacking.

So you dont have to wait for swap animation to end to attack....but you still can do that for "cool factor".   Cancellable stylish animations.     You get both speed and style.  

[Jarriaga]

21 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

DE making it so blocking building up the combo counter is something that makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.  When you are in a survival, and kills matter to maintain life support, who is going to stand around blocking to re-build up the combo counter (i.e. after a heavy attack)? That is time lost.  Ineffective, slow, and a complete waste of time.

Indeed. If anything, melee 3.0 should reward aggressive play rather than defensive play. Wasting time in Survival or Elite Sanctuary Onslaught is not an option. If melee can't be properly used in those game modes then it's dead on arrival. 

[RavingRoman]

DE, please make the gap-closer attack a guardbreaker!!! It'll be perfect for PvP and PvE enemies that use a guarding stance.

[Drejzer]

Well... should I still be shivering for my survival with the changes to Chanelling? My good on-demand full-heal-and damage-buff for whatever pointy/sharp/toxic/corrosive/flaming/exploding metal/meat/gas bar/stick/rope/glove I currently have with me that I apply on the hordes that want to rip me to shreds....
I mean, you did say that there would be a Dev Workshop about the Mods, ComboCounter, and the like  for the new melee...
 

On 2018-09-20 at 11:34 PM, Kainosh said:

 That, but without sideways movement involved.   I experienced this in Warfame (some combos have sideways trigger) and Elder scrolls.  Its horrible.  NONE of decent slashers i played used sideways movement for combos. DMC series (i skipped 1 and 2), Bayonetta, Darksiders, Killer is Dead, PoP, MGR, GoW series.... None of these used sideways movement for combos...

 

Actually, DMC3 uses sideways movement for Nevan combos

I believe they also said that the stationary/mobile/gapcloser melee are a basic set for every stance kinda a default utiliy like slide attacks/air attacks/finishers are currently... 
Or I deluded myself into thinking they said that.

though I believe that if we have a "full drawn mele" mode, the blocking should be a default function (kinda like the old Reflex Guard that procs every time and doesn't lock you in place) I mean... we are holding our melee weapon in our hand, ready to strike, so why don't we use it to at least partially protect ourselves from the attacks of those loot bags enemies we're trying to slash apart... which is EB's feature... but seems like common sense... at least to me

[Kainosh]

17 hours ago, Drejzer said:

sideways movement for Nevan combos

For 2 moves out of 12 or so. And Nevan is one of like 7 other melee weapons you can go with.      

Thats not significant enough.

18 hours ago, Drejzer said:

should be a default function

You mean automatic?   I dont think that is a good idea.  I dont like automatic stuff.  Its like...taking control away from me.

Better to just use ONE button for 2 things.  Hold for blocking (with relatively short trigger time) and Tap for "special attack".  That way, Tap would result in Gunfire or Glaive throw, but holding it will raise block. 

For example, Metal Gear Soild 5 uses this for "stand-crouch-prone" and i had 0 issues doing it very precisely when i needed.  

[(PSN)Gin_Da_Merciless]

from what i've seen so far i have no complaints only thing is i hope there are more combos, that you can aim your attacks while blocking (so you can target low and high enemies or vertical swings) and that pressing heavy attacks get combos to or integrated into combos as well.

[Drejzer]

17 hours ago, Kainosh said:

You mean automatic?   I dont think that is a good idea.  I dont like automatic stuff.  Its like...taking control away from me.

I meant it more like a passive ability akin to blocking in tekken, where you block if you aren't doing anything else.
I mean, why keep holding that block then release it when you slash things and then go back to holding it?
In my opinion frontal damage reduction from blocking should be a passive feature of unsheathed melee, active as long as there aren any other actions performed, and the current block should be like a "focused" state, or however you call it, working simmilarily to lock-on in DMC, meaning that it allows for performing specifc manouvres (like the gap closers(Stinger) and launchers(High Time) in DMC).