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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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1 hour ago, davej83 said:

will be great if DEV share some short videos abouth some diferents weapons in diferents stances and their  kind of atacks, charged, combo, speed  etc so ppl can make a better idea how will work and disccus abouth any solid content ( atm it´s only theory talk )

This would mean that individual weapon types have more things distinguishing them.

PLEASE on both accounts.

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I'll be honest, I've read this whole thread and watched every devstream and I'm STILL seeing like three completely different ways this could work out.

@[DE]Rebecca, would you mind charging into a big swarm of infested with a medium range and good speed and show us how it works on groups?  Killing enemies one at a time just isn't anything like the Warframe I experience (or am likely to enjoy unless we get a lot of VERY strong mobs).  

I think that would help, I'm still worried we're not all having the same conversation.

 

Edited by FreeWilliam
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12 hours ago, Tubsie said:

I at least would prefer the style factor of actually seeing my warframe equip the melee

......This was discussed already.  And we already found perfect solution for both.  Instant swaps with full swap animations still present if you do not interrupt them by attacking.

So you dont have to wait for swap animation to end to attack....but you still can do that for "cool factor".   Cancellable stylish animations.     You get both speed and style.  

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21 hours ago, (PS4)azul86sapphire said:

DE making it so blocking building up the combo counter is something that makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.  When you are in a survival, and kills matter to maintain life support, who is going to stand around blocking to re-build up the combo counter (i.e. after a heavy attack)? That is time lost.  Ineffective, slow, and a complete waste of time.

Indeed. If anything, melee 3.0 should reward aggressive play rather than defensive play. Wasting time in Survival or Elite Sanctuary Onslaught is not an option. If melee can't be properly used in those game modes then it's dead on arrival. 

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DE, please make the gap-closer attack a guardbreaker!!! It'll be perfect for PvP and PvE enemies that use a guarding stance.

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Well... should I still be shivering for my survival with the changes to Chanelling? My good on-demand full-heal-and damage-buff for whatever pointy/sharp/toxic/corrosive/flaming/exploding metal/meat/gas bar/stick/rope/glove I currently have with me that I apply on the hordes that want to rip me to shreds....
I mean, you did say that there would be a Dev Workshop about the Mods, ComboCounter, and the like  for the new melee...
 

On 2018-09-20 at 11:34 PM, Kainosh said:

 That, but without sideways movement involved.   I experienced this in Warfame (some combos have sideways trigger) and Elder scrolls.  Its horrible.  NONE of decent slashers i played used sideways movement for combos. DMC series (i skipped 1 and 2), Bayonetta, Darksiders, Killer is Dead, PoP, MGR, GoW series.... None of these used sideways movement for combos...

 

Actually, DMC3 uses sideways movement for Nevan combos

I believe they also said that the stationary/mobile/gapcloser melee are a basic set for every stance kinda a default utiliy like slide attacks/air attacks/finishers are currently... 
Or I deluded myself into thinking they said that.

though I believe that if we have a "full drawn mele" mode, the blocking should be a default function (kinda like the old Reflex Guard that procs every time and doesn't lock you in place) I mean... we are holding our melee weapon in our hand, ready to strike, so why don't we use it to at least partially protect ourselves from the attacks of those loot bags enemies we're trying to slash apart... which is EB's feature... but seems like common sense... at least to me

Edited by Drejzer
It's 3:30am, that's a good enough reason

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17 hours ago, Drejzer said:

sideways movement for Nevan combos

For 2 moves out of 12 or so. And Nevan is one of like 7 other melee weapons you can go with.      

Thats not significant enough.

18 hours ago, Drejzer said:

should be a default function

You mean automatic?   I dont think that is a good idea.  I dont like automatic stuff.  Its like...taking control away from me.

Better to just use ONE button for 2 things.  Hold for blocking (with relatively short trigger time) and Tap for "special attack".  That way, Tap would result in Gunfire or Glaive throw, but holding it will raise block. 

For example, Metal Gear Soild 5 uses this for "stand-crouch-prone" and i had 0 issues doing it very precisely when i needed.  

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from what i've seen so far i have no complaints only thing is i hope there are more combos, that you can aim your attacks while blocking (so you can target low and high enemies or vertical swings) and that pressing heavy attacks get combos to or integrated into combos as well.

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17 hours ago, Kainosh said:

You mean automatic?   I dont think that is a good idea.  I dont like automatic stuff.  Its like...taking control away from me.

I meant it more like a passive ability akin to blocking in tekken, where you block if you aren't doing anything else.
I mean, why keep holding that block then release it when you slash things and then go back to holding it?
In my opinion frontal damage reduction from blocking should be a passive feature of unsheathed melee, active as long as there aren any other actions performed, and the current block should be like a "focused" state, or however you call it, working simmilarily to lock-on in DMC, meaning that it allows for performing specifc manouvres (like the gap closers(Stinger) and launchers(High Time) in DMC).

Edited by Drejzer

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How are these changes (especially the channeling changes) going to affect archwing melee and Titania's Diwata? I hope this isn't being overlooked. I use channeling a lot with Titania's Razorwing as a way to heal using Life Strike.

Edited by SteveCutler
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Le 29/09/2018 à 16:08, Drejzer a dit :

I meant it more like a passive ability akin to blocking in tekken, where you block if you aren't doing anything else.
I mean, why keep holding that block then release it when you slash things and then go back to holding it?
In my opinion frontal damage reduction from blocking should be a passive feature of unsheathed melee, active as long as there aren any other actions performed, and the current block should be like a "focused" state, or however you call it, working simmilarily to lock-on in DMC, meaning that it allows for performing specifc manouvres (like the gap closers(Stinger) and launchers(High Time) in DMC).

Blocking as a way to open manoeuvres could be fun but getting rid of the block ability doesn't bother me much. We don't use it much anyway and parrying lasers with a dagger doesn't make sense either. ^ ^

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I'm just going to drop my concerns and what I want out of Melee 3.0 here in a few bullet points:

  1. Dual Wielding 1 Handed Melee and 1 Handed Pistols needs to be fun. Make sure heavy attacks and combos can be done with Dual Wielding.
  2. Heavy/Special attacks for Life Strike. Life Strike benefits from this, as a harder hitting move will heal more in a single strike. If I wanna heal in many smaller hits, Healing Return is what I'd go with.
  3. Channeling mods not named Life Strike should be a "Devil/Void Trigger" mode mod. So things like Quickening, Enduring Strike, and even Focused Defense can go towards this mode. It makes sense with Focused Defense at least.
  4. Devil/Void Trigger needs to be a lot of fun. Don't just make it a stronger melee mode. A mode that only increases numbers is boring. Add gameplay mechanics to it. In fact, have it translate to more than just melee. Have it carry over to gunplay. Maybe later down the line we can have a new mechanic around gunplay that carries over to melee. This'd work wonders with the new faster weapon switching we'll be getting.
  5. Empowered Blades Aura should affect Heavy/Special attacks, and not incur the shield damage penalty. At present the Aura hurts your team and will hurt the team more if heavy attacks become vogue and your teammates not built for it.
  6. Naramon's Power Spike needs to prevent the Combo Counter from depleting on Heavy Attacks. It just preserving combo is almost moot when Combo is mostly centered around heavy attacks. Naramon not having that would be a buzz kill. And not the mod Buzz Kill.
  7. Affinity Spike needs to go. 45% extra affinity on melee is pointless once you fully level all melee weapons. Have it do something with the new Void Trigger.
  8. Zenurik's Inner Might can also work with Void Trigger, since Channeling is disappearing.

My biggest concern is that Melee 3.0 will just be a numbers tweak and a mechanical change to make it less of a button mash, without actually doing anything new or fun. So we'd just end up with something that's just as fun or even less fun than what we have now. I don't just want better numbers on the screen, because that just means the higher level enemies will die the same way and just as fast as the lower level ones.

Stuff that pushes gameplay to the next level of complexity, something that'd demand more interesting content and challenges to face when mastered and minmaxed. I know, we don't even have an 'endgame' yet and here this post suggesting we take gameplay to the next level. I've given up on waiting for endgame to come before wondering how far we can push things.

Something that doesn't get min-maxed within the hour of release followed by months of grind for something we'd already know how it's gonna work. Minmaxing feels hallow and going through the motions when it's just more of the same thing.

I want to learn new things, again. Please, I loved that feeling when I first started out warframe and had no idea what I was doing. This post turned out to be more than I thought it was gonna be.

Edited by Azimbee
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As of the last dev stream I have some questions on how the melee rework is going since it seems the last few have really only given us the bare minimum amount of information and right now we just recently had a post about the login rework, how soon will it be till we get a new post covering the planed changes for the melee system.

When can we expect to see an update on the progress and stats we will have on our melee in melee 3.0? how will all the channeling mods be reworked as far as what they do? in addition what will happen to rivens that have the stats for negative combo duration or the ones that boost channeling damage? and as far as the charge attacks go that operate on weapons like the gunblades and the glaives will they still opperate on the same methods as they do now? not asking for any king of actuall release date just a really rough estimate but will melee 3.0 be dropping with Fortuna or will it be dropped later on in Fortuna after the inital release and fine tuning process of this next big expansion we will have due to the large amount of content?

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i like what Azimbee said above, thats exactly what im hoping to see, void trigger should affect gunplay aswell as melee, guns could even have special effects like say the pyrana prime could gain its special during the void trigger the balistica prime could gain the ability to turn any kills into ghosts that last untill VT runs out, ect.

also i want to see shield weapons like Ack&Brunt, Sigma be able to be used with a pistol or one handed primary in the other hand, like the grineer do with their shield & pistol

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Ok....Let me summarise what i already saw :

 

1) We have 3 melee buttons :  Attack/Charged attack (X / Hold X ) ;   Channeling ( Hold LT)  and   Blocking ( Hold RT )

2) Channeling is going to be removed.  That leaves (LT) button free.

3) Charged attacks getting rework....But they will not participate in Combos. They are just a separate attack that uses up your "Hit counter". 

4) We getting "air combos"....but they looked extreemely wonky and pointless.  Seems like DE do not understand why we want "air combos".  These are needed to kill Synovia, Lephantis and Hek with Melee.    Not to bring down small corpus drones.

5) In addition to Vertical slam, we also get new Directional slam.  Imo a pointless feature. As you already can bulletjump from midair and do a normal slam as you fly above the target.  Same results. 

 

So, New controls will most likely be like this :

(X) - Attack ,   (X) + (directional input) = various combos ?    (Hold X) = ?  No idea what will that do, maybe a certain combo starter or such.

( Hold RT) - Blocking.    (RT) + (X) = "gap closer" dash attack.

(LT) -  Charged attack. Uses combo counter.   Maybe "finishers" will also be on this button.

In midair   (X) = Air combo  ;  (X) + (look down) = Slam  ;  (LT) = Directional slam.

 

 

There are lots of unused (?) opportunities, like :

(LT) + (X) + (LT) ;  (X) + (LT) + (LT)  and such "3 hitters" .

(LT) + Directional input  = various Heavy strikes. 

(RT) + (LT) =  Can be anything. I would make it a Parry if you press (LT) just as enemy strikes your Block and Finisher if you press these near downed enemy.

And so on. 

 

 

I just hope that "Directional input" will not include  Left and Right , and that Melee will be Viable VS bosses and minibosses.  Coz now its only good for horde slashing.  Single target combat is very poor and lacks mechanics.  Tyl Regor and Umbra fights are sht if you go Melee.

 

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A couple of questions!

  • Will we be able to melee Eidolons with the new aerial combos? (please yes!)
  • Will we be seeing variety when it comes to how the heavy attacks use the combo counter? (more range, procs, speed increases, AOE pushes and pulls, weapon specific specials, stance specific specials, etc)
  • Will there be stances that add improved channeling-like features (energy for more awesomeness)
  • Will we be seeing variety when it comes to highly mobile low-momentum stances (like Clashing Forest and Final Harbinger are currently) vs. less mobile ones that provide momentum?  
  • Are we going to be stuck with one input scheme or will there be some stances that are more creative (using button combos, 'beast mode' auttoattack, etc.)
  • Could we get stances that highlight 'heavy' targets or mark them on radar so we can be more effective in melee mode?

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I have an idea.
After the melee revision, make a mode in the conclave.
Tenno will fight each other only with melee weapons.
I think many will like it, especially if there are worthy rewards.
PVP in the darksouls, not annoying. Why not make the same in warframe?

 

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22 minutes ago, NoirTree said:

I have an idea.
After the melee revision, make a mode in the conclave.
Tenno will fight each other only with melee weapons.
I think many will like it, especially if there are worthy rewards.
PVP in the darksouls, not annoying. Why not make the same in warframe?

 

The worthy rewards part would be nice. I'd like to see some more conclave skins. They look amazing after all.

As for a melee-only mode, yeah, that'd be nice. Melee's underused in conclave because... well, guns. An 'ol Teshin's been proven to like swords.

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But for more balance, it would be good to return stamina for parkour. And only in the conclave. Fighting against
players who use macros is extremely annoying. Even if it is only melee.

Edited by NoirTree

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3 hours ago, NoirTree said:

But for more balance, it would be good to return stamina for parkour. And only in the conclave. Fighting against
players who use macros is extremely annoying. Even if it is only melee.

I can certainly agree with the annoyance against Macros in conclave though DE has not been very clear on their stance about that past 'use at your own risk' so I can't really hold it against those players - much as I used to feel like doing just that - when running conclave a bunch in the past. Something to put a stop to the constant bullet jump spam would be nice, but I worry about Conclave missing its mark if it introduces too many Conclave only mechanics as it is in universe supposed to prepare us for enemies in the real game world and not just for conclave.

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I need Melee 3.0 more than Fortuna ! Pls DE give us Melee 3.0 before Fortuna comes out ! Current melee system is boring and unfun, really tired of the polearm meta... And fix Gram 1.5X combo mutiplier !

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2 hours ago, Doomsknight said:

 Pls DE give us Melee 3.0 before Fortuna comes out !

It doesn't help to ask DE to rush, if it's not ready.

"I wouldn't like to have my pizza half raw."

Let's just give them time to finish it, and we will probably be saved from the worst bugs.

Edited by Ryuurik
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Some most recent things related to melee, that popped after laterst update - that should be talked about:

 

Quoting myself, and my opinion on those:
 

Quote

Noticed some of the oddities myself. When you play melee as much as I do, you just know when something you've played for 2 & half years, feels weird and wonky. Been having exactly this feeling - and can confirm some of the observations in this topic (OP's post). This better not be a sign of what's coming with melee 3.0. While these changes are not entirely 'gamebreaking', they are a nuisance. So far, it truly looks that melee rework = nerf of melee. Not a fan. Hopefully we'll get relevant informations about this, so people who love and enjoy melee can actually work with something else than horrid assumptions and horror stories.

 

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