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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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40 minutes ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey all!

Just wanted to notify people in this thread that due to some merging accidents, the location of the thread and its comments had to be moved slightly. In this process, a number of earliest posts made here were combined into one single post completely unintentionally. I apologize to all of the posters of these comments for the inconvenience and loss of potential forum reputation.

@[DE]Aidan Can this be fixed?  If it's something out of anyone's control because technology is very complicated and just craps the bed sometimes then so be it.  But from what I understand as long as the webmaster has access to the database the thread's data is stored in, they can at the very least restore past threads to the position they were in.  I say this because I've been working really hard on my post all weekend, that was much to my surprise very well received, and was in the midst of making more content for it not only to find that it's gone but it's been added to an earlier post w/o attribution.

First world problems... I totally get it.  But this just feels awful.

Edited by lihimsidhe

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All I hope is that arcane contagion to be useful again with this new melee rework.

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2 hours ago, ChronoJXF said:

Am I reading this correctly? That only heavy attacks are only affected by combo counter damage? I believe this will make more melee weapons useless unless they really need to buff all melees and stances with added bonus damage and decent ranges. I was enjoying my zaw w/ Tempo Royale stance and they will somehow nerf the light attacks? Some of my frames got better survivability on my zaw w/ Primed Fury and Berserker mod. The only problem here is the "spin2win is kinda cancerous" but don't get me wrong, even on this overpowered mechanic extends our survivabilty in battle.

- Why not just add some damage % cap and crit chance cap while doing spin attack/maiming, since it seems that this is one of the main problem?

- Doing combos on stance aren't that fun in the first place, maybe improve better button combination = more user friendly on most players?

- Does light attacks still compete on high-level missions + onslaught missions? It better be still that way.

- Will heavy attacks ragdoll enemies alot? It looks like the spread of dps on ragdolled enemies isn't that sufficient killing hordes of them.

- Maiming on walls is broken, really need to remove it.

I don't know what their coding is like but if they could put a hard cap on melee range it would "fix" the situation. The people who spent big platinum on rivens that have tons of range would be screwed but then they had to know that the 200+ range melee weapon stuff was a bit much.

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My only thought about this is how do the melee weapons changes (like line of sight) affect non-melee melee weapons like the sarpa, redeemer, and glaive-style weapons where the possess the capacity to be, or fire projectiles.  If I throw my glaive, and it bounces off to Albuquerque whilst in a mission, will it still damage enemies as it bounces about regardless to the fact that I'm in the same room as it is?

Edited by brokensaintvxvx
Clarity and grammar

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ok i'm a little confused now , if with the next  melee nerf  wep will not kill anymore through the wall this mean that also the ignis with  puncthrough mods will not kill anymore through the wall , then will be the turn of all the aoe warframe to make the same end 

Edited by LIKE_A_PR3DAT0R

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I can't understand nor believe why you are getting rid of channeling instead of reworking and buffing it. It's one of the greatest mechanics in Warframe if you do it right.

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34 minutes ago, brokensaintvxvx said:

My only thought about this is how do the melee weapons changes (like line of sight) affect non-melee melee weapons like the sarpa, redeemer, and glaive-style weapons where the possess the capacity to be, or fire projectiles.  If I throw my glaive, and it bounces off to Albuquerque whilst in a mission, will it still damage enemies as it bounces about regardless to the fact that I'm in the same room as it is?

I'm also worried about the gunblades and Glaives not properly functioning as their weapon archetype.
If you need to spend combo to make heavy attacks, does that mean you can't throw your glaive or fire your sarpa until you've built up combo from regular swings? Or will throws/shots be available as part of quick melee?

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35 minutes ago, BLI7Z said:

I can't understand nor believe why you are getting rid of channeling instead of reworking and buffing it. It's one of the greatest mechanics in Warframe if you do it right.

And then there is the way it looks... I need my energy channel effects.

 

BTW, DE, What is going to happen with the melee channel effects?

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48 minutes ago, LapuLapo said:

I'm also worried about the gunblades and Glaives not properly functioning as their weapon archetype.
If you need to spend combo to make heavy attacks, does that mean you can't throw your glaive or fire your sarpa until you've built up combo from regular swings? Or will throws/shots be available as part of quick melee?

Its strange but spending the combo counter "kinda" makes sense for the gunblades, particularly as a quick melee.  But even then, the weapons functionality are thrown or fired melee weapons.  They may not change our the throw or fire mechanic but add in a heavy attack  in addition to the "hold melee to fling" functionality of the two weapon styles.

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For people who's legs have turned to jelly because the destiny arrives soon for Melee 3.0... I don't think the like of mods such as life strike or maiming will become completely useless as they can very logically be implemented to work with the new system. say like:

Maiming Strike: Every 5 seconds "or" After 2 or 3 heavy attacks, the next melee attack (be it light or heavy) has +90% critical chance.

this can create nice windows in strategy for when you'd need it on a light, heavy (depending on combo) or still even a spin attack.

Same goes for Life strike. It doesn't need to be tied to a specific mechanic. Hell we might have the effects of these mods completely replaced and introduce yet another sexy meta. I keep seeing people complaining about these mods. What about the other combo counter mods? What about the Naramon passives? Alot will change! Here's to hoping DE can make Melee even better!

PS: If melee 3.0 will be a total nerf then yes, imma be royally pissed!

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2 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

You killed my post Aidan. Now I expect full retribution by adding the cancel melee animation by transitioning into a warframe ability cast demand to be implemented as compensation.

... please¿ :3

  Reveal hidden contents

RIP Forum post and 20 reputation, my life will never be the same again

 

LOL

Hey, at least you didn't have a whole feedback thread full of constructive responses merged into a megathread, effectively burying that feedback. Happened to a PoE feedback thread I put up last year. Taught me a lesson to always back up posts that I think are important 😛

On topic, I really hope DE doesn't make normal blocking like channeled blocking. That's just punishing players for blocking (which I kinda feel is one of the real reasons for this melee rework - to bring back some form of stamina-like resource drain system to punish blockers). I'd rather have blocking as it is now, with different melee weapons determining a percent chance of blocking, than to have any energy drain with blocking. DE should just accept that players don't want mechanics that negatively impact their energy, and not try to find new ways to force that onto players.

6 minutes ago, AntharisSjet said:

For people who's legs have turned to jelly because the destiny arrives soon for Melee 3.0... I don't think the like of mods such as life strike or maiming will become completely useless as they can very logically be implemented to work with the new system. say like:

Maiming Strike: Every 5 seconds "or" After 2 or 3 heavy attacks, the next melee attack (be it light or heavy) has +90% critical chance.

this can create nice windows in strategy for when you'd need it on a light, heavy (depending on combo) or still even a spin attack.

Same goes for Life strike. It doesn't need to be tied to a specific mechanic. Hell we might have the effects of these mods completely replaced and introduce yet another sexy meta. I keep seeing people complaining about these mods. What about the other combo counter mods? What about the Naramon passives? Alot will change! Here's to hoping DE can make Melee even better!

PS: If melee 3.0 will be a total nerf then yes, imma be royally pissed!

Nice IW reference!

Melee 3.0:

Quote

 I know what it's like to lose. To feel so desperately that you're right, yet to fail nonetheless. It's frightening, turns the legs to jelly. I ask you to what end? Dread it. Run from it. Destiny arrives all the same. And now it's here. Or should I say, I am.

Edited by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

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On 2018-05-13 at 11:04 AM, Ulvra said:

...

Blood rush will still add to your critical chance as it always has, weeping wounds too for status, the only difference there is that you expend your charge to heavy attack, but at the same time you will charge it faster.

Please try being a little open-minded instead of just crying wolf.

That is a huge assumption on your part... Bottom line heavy attacks suck because they take forever, do not speed up with mods, force you to stop moving, and there is absolutely no reason to use them as they exist currently...

If they move all combo counter mechanics to only affect HEAVY attacks...there justifiable reason to believe mods based strictly on the combo counter will similarly follow suit...and only affect heavy attacks...  this is the "stealth nerf" to blood rush I am speaking of...  If it only applies to heavy attacks...it will be worthless.  Nobody wants to stand still for a full 1.5 seconds to perform a heavy attack on one mob... They don't know their own game if they think that is a comparatively effective way to melee...  Even the sancti magistar with its huge healing effect on heavy attack is not worthwhile enough to make anyone want to use heavy swings...  

Heavy attacks are just too clunky, ineffective, and disruptive of the normal game flow to make them worth using.  It isn't fun..  

If Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds will only effect heavy swings, DE will have effectively nerfed the mods into useless garbage.

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I´d like to see minor improvements in consistency as well. Primary and secondary weapons can be used agasinst anything the game offers but melee weapons are quite inefficient in some special cases (teralyst, vayhek, lephantis, etc). Maybe some kind of attaching to bigger enemies weakspots could work (similar to melee attacks against an ogma in archwing).

Edited by Arcira

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Yeah... Think my post went bye-bye. Though I'll repost it - what's being done in regards to mods affecting Deconstructor and Zenistar disc range? Especially in terms of rivens. Zenistar is all about its disc right now so the range is rather important.

In regards to channelling what is being done about channelling effects? Some armours have some special effects like the PA ones. Will there be a way to activate them like we do now apart from just fighting? Otherwise you hardly see them.

Please allow the combo system to affect normal attacks and please don't allow for whatever is built up to affect just ONE attack but instead multiple swings. The combo system at the moment allows melee weapons, especially lower tier ones, to scale and have more of an impact. Rivens can only do so much.

Edited by Valiant

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Would be high time DE trowed to in the trash the concept of melee / shooting as separate stances for a frame, a previous poster cited the Devil May Cry franchise and  that would be a step in the right direction:

- all melee should be managed trough quick melle + another button to have input variety for combos

- firing or meleeying leave the frame brandishing the last weapon used

- weapon switching is hastened the hell up (400% at least)

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What is going to happen with the Visual Channeling Effects when Channeling goes away? I find they are cool fashionframewise, not to mention that several Prime Accessories Armor Sets have some sort of visual effect with it too

Edited by Emulad0or

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In my opinion, DE sometimes takes too long to address these issues... Maiming Strike has been here for ages now,  this just makes some people upset they wasted platinum on rivens or maiming strike for it to get nerfed. And ofcourse this ends up happening to players that haven't been here long enough to know that if something is too good it'll be gone eventually.

I'm happy to see these changes and look forward to see what'll happen, brainless spinning was fun at the beginning but it quickly got boring.

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In the quest to burn out memerax and automation, a lot of weapons will burn as well, while not poking at the core issues that melee has with the game.

Range on dual/single wield? Kill time? Self sustain? Bad collision boxes and strange range scaling? Enemies with obscene scaling that drop massive AoE? Exalted weapons?

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30 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

In the quest to burn out memerax and automation, a lot of weapons will burn as well, while not poking at the core issues that melee has with the game.

Range on dual/single wield? Kill time? Self sustain? Bad collision boxes and strange range scaling? Enemies with obscene scaling that drop massive AoE? Exalted weapons?

In fairness, aiming to solve a problem by nuking the entire city block in which that problem sits is something DE are good at. For bonus points: the smoke clears, there’s collateral damage, but the problem itself mostly remains, ref. Ember.

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5 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

forum reputation

Might be something I don't know.. but does someone get something useful from that or is it just an ego booster?

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12 minutes ago, kyori said:

Might be something I don't know.. but does someone get something useful from that or is it just an ego booster?

Nothing useful. It really only measures whether one is good at posting stupid memes or sharp responses.

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2 hours ago, FataL-Flaw said:

That is a huge assumption on your part... Bottom line heavy attacks suck because they take forever, do not speed up with mods, force you to stop moving, and there is absolutely no reason to use them as they exist currently...

If they move all combo counter mechanics to only affect HEAVY attacks...there justifiable reason to believe mods based strictly on the combo counter will similarly follow suit...and only affect heavy attacks...  this is the "stealth nerf" to blood rush I am speaking of...  If it only applies to heavy attacks...it will be worthless.  Nobody wants to stand still for a full 1.5 seconds to perform a heavy attack on one mob... They don't know their own game if they think that is a comparatively effective way to melee...  Even the sancti magistar with its huge healing effect on heavy attack is not worthwhile enough to make anyone want to use heavy swings...  

Heavy attacks are just too clunky, ineffective, and disruptive of the normal game flow to make them worth using.  It isn't fun..

Sorry to say, but you're making just as many assumptions here as I am. What we've seen so far is about as far off from finished as it can be and is in no way indication of anything other than the general idea of what is to come, however there is absolutely no reason why mods like blood rush or weeping wounds wouldn't still work as they do now, other than your own pessimistic expectations, though they might experience adjustments numerically. You're speaking here of mechanics you've seen in a rough "just barely ready to show" state and claiming them "clunky and unfun" and sorry to say, but until you try them ingame I'm going to hold absolutely zero value to such statements, but regardless this is why we give feedback, so that DE can take concerns into consideration and attack problems before they are brought into the game.

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2 hours ago, Bl4zko said:

In my opinion, DE sometimes takes too long to address these issues... Maiming Strike has been here for ages now,  this just makes some people upset they wasted platinum on rivens or maiming strike for it to get nerfed. And ofcourse this ends up happening to players that haven't been here long enough to know that if something is too good it'll be gone eventually.

I'm happy to see these changes and look forward to see what'll happen, brainless spinning was fun at the beginning but it quickly got boring.

IIRC maiming strike isn't changing. They are changing the way that the combo counter adds damage to your melee attacks.

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7 hours ago, DarkShadow980 said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the main problem/exploit that people are using for their spin2win is the fact that Maiming Strike applies before Blood Rush.  Take the Atterax for example.  25% base crit chance, 3x crit multiplier.  With maxed Blood Rush, after just five hits, you have ~87% crit chance.  But with maiming strike, after the same time, you get just under 400% crit chance.  That's a 9x multiplier if you don't use Organ Shatter, 16.2 if you do.  That's where the insane scaling is coming from.

If Maiming Strike applied after Blood Rush, things would be different.  Following the same example of Atterax with Blood Rush/Maiming Strike and a 1.5 combo multiplier, a spin attack would have only 177% crit chance.  The average crit multiplier would be around 4.5, or 7.7 with Organ Shatter.

This cuts down on how long a Maiming Strike/Blood Rush build can last in a survival mission while still letting that build be usable in pretty much the entire game, except for a select few cases.

A shinning light emits its rays among the crowded chaos

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3 hours ago, FataL-Flaw said:

Heavy attacks are just too clunky, ineffective, and disruptive of the normal game flow to make them worth using.  It isn't fun

Do you know this for a fact? Do you have access to a build of Warframe that we don't and actually tested this?

No? 

Then it might be a good idea to wait and see before proclaiming doom. You might change your mind after actually trying it when the melee rework goes live.

Also, if it turns out that heavy attacks are indeed too clunky for what you consider to be normal gameplay...and I really feel this needs pointing out....you don't have to use them.

Heavy Attacks will be completely optional.

Edited by MirageKnight

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