Revenant Themed Warframe "Vlad" Feedback and Discussion

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

2 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I'm of the same opinion. I see Revenant as a potential petmaster (hence my thread), not another DPS frame that delete entire rooms with a button press.

Agreed which is why I'm kind of sad that they've moved a little ways away from the original concept they first showed us.  I was looking forward to my Non-Nekros horde.  I mean I can kind of understand why they did, cause if I remember right I think it was Rebecca that said something about 20 controlled enemies being a nightmare for the engineering team.

[hellodownthere]

9 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

So I tuned in for Devstream #115 live, because I'm excited for the Revenant warframe. I'm a huge fan of petmaster/summoner playstyles. The more minions I can have in my arsenal, the happier I'm gonna be! When I learned of Revenant's abilities to enthrall enemies who can then enthrall others into his control (up to a maximum of 20), it immediately got my attention. Sure, he may have to deal with teammates wiping them almost instantly, but that's why he had 20 as a limit and they can enthrall other enemies on hit. I was excited to have another frame that deals with minions.

That was until I saw today's devstream.

It's hard for me to point out exactly where it was mentioned, but it happened sometime in the early attempt at showing off the new Elite Alert system. I distinctly heard "maximum of four" mentioned in regards to Revenant's minions. That concerns me. I admit that having 20 minions may be a bit excessive (8-10 would've been fine), but cutting that down to 1/5 of what it used to be sounds just awful. I also didn't see them enthralling other enemies either, all of them seemed to be coming directly from Revenant's actions instead.

His Enthrall mechanics has great potential to introduce another petmaster/summoner into the game, but if he has such a small cap to his minions and they don't get some damage reduction from other players' attacks, this is going to be a wasted opportunity

Doesn't matter that ability is by far the weakest in his kit unless they make it so it makes them deal insane damage you're always going to kill them ×1000 faster than your "pets"

Edited August 18, 2018 by hellodownthere

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, hellodownthere said:

Doesn't matter that ability is by far the weakest in his kit unless they make it so it makes them deal insane damage you're always going to kill them ×1000 faster than your "pets"

It's not the killing that matters to me. It's the "CC", the distraction they can provide, keeping the enemies shooting at them instead of you or your objective.

[SnazzyZ]

19 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

It's not the killing that matters to me. It's the "CC", the distraction they can provide, keeping the enemies shooting at them instead of you or your objective.

The strongest CC of all is death. a dead enemy cant hurt you or the objective.

[PsiWarp]

I wonder if they get any brief or full duration immunity to player damage like Mind Control makes its target... plus, if the light mines also enthrall enemies that trip them or not.

1 minute ago, PolarFall said:

The strongest CC of all is death. a dead enemy cant hurt you or the objective.

A dead enemy also makes for boring gameplay. Leave some puppets for us control freaks to toy with, thanks.

[AtsiaZ]

10 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

So I tuned in for Devstream #115 live, because I'm excited for the Revenant warframe. I'm a huge fan of petmaster/summoner playstyles. The more minions I can have in my arsenal, the happier I'm gonna be! When I learned of Revenant's abilities to enthrall enemies who can then enthrall others into his control (up to a maximum of 20), it immediately got my attention. Sure, he may have to deal with teammates wiping them almost instantly, but that's why he had 20 as a limit and they can enthrall other enemies on hit. I was excited to have another frame that deals with minions.

That was until I saw today's devstream.

It's hard for me to point out exactly where it was mentioned, but it happened sometime in the early attempt at showing off the new Elite Alert system. I distinctly heard "maximum of four" mentioned in regards to Revenant's minions. That concerns me. I admit that having 20 minions may be a bit excessive (8-10 would've been fine), but cutting that down to 1/5 of what it used to be sounds just awful. I also didn't see them enthralling other enemies either, all of them seemed to be coming directly from Revenant's actions instead.

His Enthrall mechanics has great potential to introduce another petmaster/summoner into the game, but if he has such a small cap to his minions and they don't get some damage reduction from other players' attacks, this is going to be a wasted opportunity

I mean, it doesn't really seem "pet master/summoner" at all to me, as said by Thaylien, it seems like your SUPPOSED to letting them did en masse and cycling through more rather than focusing on buffing and keeping them alive for the long haul. When I think summoner, something more along the lines of Nekros' Shadows come to mind, buffed up and immune to friendly fire.

[SnazzyZ]

2 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

I wonder if they get any brief or full duration immunity to player damage like Mind Control makes its target... plus, if the light mines also enthrall enemies that trip them or not.

A dead enemy also makes for boring gameplay. Leave some puppets for us control freaks to toy with, thanks.

killing them is the objective a majority of the time, and killing the thralls is very important to create the eidolon mines. also do explain what level of control you have over minions as Venari is the only controllable ally I know of in the whole game. If minion style frames were a bit more focused on the player actually giving input to them rather than AI meat shields I'd have a very different opinion but they simply don't offer much of an impact in their current state. I find most minion frames very slow and boring since the player does nothing with them.

[ljmadruga]

Based on the devstream and the footage that we saw of revenant vs. high level enemies, it doesn’t look like he was doing a ton of damage with his 4th ability, despite what the effects might suggest.

Why not scale the damage of his 4 with the total hp of his minions? Limbo rework 1.0 shows that scaling damage based on enemy health is a VERY effective tactic and could even prove to change up revenant’s gameplay a bit.

[SnazzyZ]

If his 4th ability could do % dmg that ramped up as he was damaged more and more would make it be viable for every level which would be very much so welcome.

[Kyoresh]

You realise they either didnt mod it for mod it really badly?

[GinKenshin]

just gonna quote myself here: 

Quote

can we please just stop #*!%ing comparing stuff already......

 

[TheGrimCorsair]

Mesa's 4, Equinox's Day-4, and Saryn in general are all pretty ridiculously overpowered as it is.

Revenant's looks pretty strong, given it was being used against a whole host of level 80-100 fully armored Grineer, and G3.

[IceColdHawk]

14 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

just gonna quote myself here: 

  

can we please just stop #*!%ing comparing stuff already......

No? Comparisons have to be made in order to find balance. If one thing compares to everything else and turns out over or underpowered, then actions have to be taken (unless you care no little for balance).

@MarrikBroom Relax and wait till the frame is here before you compare with things we already have. As Kyoresh said, Rebecca probably had no mods at all or very few. You will get the data next week provided they won't have to suddenly [DE]lay the update.

[GinKenshin]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

No? Comparisons have to be made in order to find balance. If one thing compares to everything else and turns out over or underpowered, then actions have to be taken (unless you care no little for balance).

@MarrikBroom Relax and wait till the frame is here before you compare with things we already have. As Kyoresh said, Rebecca probably had no mods at all or very few. You will get the data next week provided they won't have to suddenly [DE]lay the update.

that's just the thing, balance will never be truly there, there's always gonna be 'the best' in the eyes of certain people like the OP, and if it's not on par then it's not worth it, even when it has other uses and sometimes is there just for more variety or options, but they can't see that 

comparing is never a good thing from what I've seen, because everything can be compared and everything can be found worse than 'the best' way. and let's no forget the OP who like you said, compares stuff that's not even out yet to stuff we have 

comparison can be and should be used for the better, but in most cases it's not, thus it's redundant 

[ZodiacShinryu]

10 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

We don't know. ALl we DO know is 'modded for blast/corrosive' and then when calls were made t o show the mods to partners 'I can't do that.' So based on that lack of information either it's 'fine' because it was half modded, or HORRIBle because if that was a well modded melee... 

Yes we don't know anything which is why you need to be careful on your point of comparisons not just make blankets.

When they said "like Mesa" they weren't speaking on power terms, they were speaking mechanically. You hold down the button and it ramps up and focuses a little. At least that is how they described it. Without actually playing it their whole description of his 4th is super confusing considering he is spinning so focusing it up makes little sense. Does it operate under beam mechanics? Maybe that plays a role in the ramp up thing or his spinning slows... something. She also said he seems to have a built in 'vex fury like function' on his 4th where incoming damage increases its output. Though without seeing multipliers (and assuming his 2 doesn't block the effects) it probably wont mean a whole lot. Which IS something we should be complaining about on a whole. Reflection based damage/abilities are TERRIBLE because the enemy output against their own survivability scaling is so abysmal that it isn't even worth looking at (also extended to pet/minion/thrall damage from controlling base enemies). Also they should reflect damage pre-mitigations not after.

Anyway, I am fairly certain Revenant wasn't modded at the very least it wasn't meta modded (no corrupted or primed/umbral) so you are getting base damage feedback on some armor there about. And unless his 4th is considered an exalted and modded separately it will never come close to the power of Mesa's Peacemakers (that is just a given). And if it is not exalted class then the mention of "modded for blast/corrosive" means nothing for his 4th. I will say I think she was talking about her melee weapon for that because she was also showing off the melee 3.0 stuff at the same time.

[ZodiacShinryu]

9 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

I mean c'mon guys. We all care about and love this game and we each want it to be the best it can be. At least that's where I'm coming from with thesequestions and observations  rather than 'raar this sucks they're liars they're full of themselves i know better than them how dare they.'

Sure I guess however there isn't a frame in existence that can't handle Lv100 modded and I honestly don't care very far beyond that. Which is a baseline I hold because it is all that is expected from anyone (for sorties and now elite alerts) from all set content and even first full rotation of endless. He was doing 'okay' (for expectations of Reb was playing and the setting/conditions she was performing in) that modded even moderately would mean he would likely do fine. I am personally more concerned with how his "Mesmer Shield" reacts with modding than what his 4th is like in terms of damage (considering I am not expecting it to be exalted class). Assuming they don't want to go to the mod screen because of 'dev build stuff' such as UI, secrets, new mods, old mods, other equipment, etc, I suppose a compromise would be that she could after the streams give out the modding information in the overview thread. Though for Devstreams in particular (all the other streams where they aren't on dev builds they have gone through modding with the players at times) I wouldn't be surprised if they were never modded unless stated otherwise because she accesses everything through 'devcommands'.

Simply, if Revenant was meta modded (unlikely) and was putting out those numbers then I would have cause for concern. However I am fairly confident that he will come out just fine to perform the basic tasks of the game just like every frame before him. Once he is out and we can accurately get information on his workings then we can start molding our thoughts on the overall expectations of the playerbase in concerns of Warframe 'playability' and work from there.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Several times in the past they've mentioned being unmodded during the streams. 

It's possible it's the same here. Because of the level of control and survivability i'm not sure he should do as much as a frame designed primarily for damage anyway. Either way, i'm not sure it's worth critiquing the stats until we actually play it.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, MarrikBroom said:

So just because MAYBE if it'ss this or MAYBE it' s that the lack of information and specifics is excuseable?

You've made a judgment without having all, or maybe even most of the information. Yes, that's exactly why it's excusable...

[Omega-Shadowblade]

I'd like to point out that the ability was never COMPARED to mesa's. It was merely stating it shared the same focused damage mechanic, i.e. the longer you hold down, the stronger it gets.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

1 minute ago, MarrikBroom said:

Granted other than a few standout examples most 4 abilities don't scale well so I'd prefer utility getting added to make it more worth it on high end than 'i wanna murder everything instantly' but Eh.

It's the data hole I am concerned over. I have said that rather constantly here. Where's All the Data?

The ability does have more "utility" than mesa's for the damage it was doing. It scales with incoming damage, places mines on any kill, and gives overshields on thrall kills. Mesa's is pure killing potential only. You don't even get movement without the aug.

Also regarding the data hole. This is why people don't discuss till after a release. Data comes in as people can test. 

[-.SP.-G43riel]

7 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

why are you people white knighting this? I go 'the comaprison isn't there this is objectivly demonstrativly worse' and the response is 'well stop comparing things.'\

 

the best thing you COULD have done was waiting until its release to judge it right

[Omega-Shadowblade]

21 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

I would, except they decided to trot out and showcase the thing that's supposedly as good as mesa.... and did about what I'd expect out off ember. I'm annoyed because there's a hole in the data that could explain this so that either 'ok fine mod better and that problem ceases to be an issue' or 'Man these numbers need a second look at before it's released.' 

Might be best to just step away from it for a bit. You seem to be trying to read too much into it. If it needs changes when it comes out there is always the feedback section. Personally, it seems like it'll be absolutely fine. Most damage abilities don't even scale up to that level normally as focus is primarily star chart. The fact it can take out lvl 80ish enemies of the most durable faction? That's pretty satisfactory. It also means it might absolutely melt the corpus and infested.

We'll find out when we find out. Not much point in stressing out over it right now.

[ZodiacShinryu]

6 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

I would, except they decided to trot out and showcase the thing that's supposedly as good as mesa

Now you are the one that needs to provide information. Where did you hear this? When did you hear this?

I've watched every devstream since near the very beginning, not that that is completely relevant however the last several might. I have zero recollection of them comparing Revenant and Mesa on equal levels of power and you physically can't unless they also said his 4th is exalted class which I also have no recollection of (No 'damage' ability will ever beat raw weapon scaling; which in itself is a little sad but a different topic). They have said on a number of occasions that the 'ramp up' mechanic that is present in Mesa will somehow be present in his 4th. That IS NOT a confirmation or comparison of raw power, it is simply a description of functionality! It is on the same level of "Hey, you know that charge mechanic on Hydroid's powers? We are also adding it to Ember's Fireball and Vauban's Tesla!" That is it. Numbers are easy to change before and after release, functionality is not and devstreams are all (90%) about functionality. How it actually performs damage wise based on THEIR OWN metric of balance is something that will be looked at up until release then modified when the players exploded their statistical population and voiced verifiable feedback.

Now under their past trends and various records, it is highly likely everything was unmodded except what she expressly mentioned. Combined with no frame has been so unplayable to not be able to handle Sortie level missions when modded, there is no reason to be overly concerned with it unless you are have unrealistic expectations with it. You can in fact do a similar test on your own by taking Mesa with no mods to Sortie3 (a non-resistant one would be best) and see how she performs damage wise to gauge what the possibilities will be. Honestly even if you get blown away, I could easily write it off as how nearly broken Mesmer Armor seems on paper even with 'all the lack of data we have on it'.

I have said it long before and I'll say it again... DE needs to end Devstreams. I am tired of doom and gloom threads full of misaligned views of people that can't handle their own expectations. This is how we get the mess that is Khora… so full of potential made into nothing special based on concerns and fears of things they don't even know about (or even see anything thereof).

[Ocerkin]

im very excited for revenant BUT i am very fearful of its actual usability because every time theyve shown him he gets the crap kicked out of him and i cant see it being very viable endgame, it has such a link to that "armor" skill it has but it sounds like it has very small numbers of hits before its burned away, last stream reb said 10? thats not a lot in a defense or survival situation if it is ANY 10 hits, you regularly get plinked by stray shots constantly so unless you are constantly recasting its gonna be worthless...

 

Edit: and with the devs saying how "op" he was while getting smashed on, and his severe limitation shown as of last stream of only getting 4 minions? im very concerned, only 4? i consider that pretty well worthless, its like a heavily gimped nekros

Edited August 19, 2018 by Ocerkin

[SSI_Seraph]

Il y a 21 heures, Omega-Shadowblade a dit :

The ability does have more "utility" than mesa's for the damage it was doing. It scales with incoming damage, places mines on any kill, and gives overshields on thrall kills.

- the overshield is locked behind killing them with what was a low damage ult.

- Mouvement is irrelevant if everything is dead anyway

- scaling with enemy damage without amplifing it tenfolds is just bad and he can't tank forever to "benefit" from that style for scaling.

Once the charges on the armor are gone take the hits or say goodbye to the stacked damage which will be irrelevant vs their EHP scaling anyway (nyx's mindcontrol, unairu's reflect are all exemples of how bad enemy dmage is when used againt enemies, the only exception is octavia because of the giant multiplier and the fact that it's cumulative between them and mallet is invincible)

TL:DR yes it has more utility but all that utility is locked behind killing them with bad damage with a subpart scaling mechanic.

Edited August 19, 2018 by SSI_Seraph